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  1. #1
    Whispering wind Guest

    Where Did Humans Come From?

    Evolution & Creationism



    There is a battle raging in America between the Christian right and scientists as to the origins of man. Some Christians take the Bible story of Genesis literally. They believe God made Adam and Eve six thousand years ago, and that all the animals and plants of the world began at that time. This theory is called creationism. So when presented with evidence that fossils have been laid down in sediment that is known to be millions of years old, the creationists say that it’s a trick to test their faith.

    The scientists believe in the theory of evolution and Darwin’s survival of the fittest. So tall giraffes eat more leaves than shorter ones, so they survived to give birth to progeny that over time got taller and taller and that is why a giraffe is as tall as it is today. The evolutionists also believe that four billion years ago particles on earth clanged together randomly to form proteins and DNA molecules, and that from that 'particle-clang' process, single-cell life forms grew in a primordial soup of early earth to become humans.

    Some believe that Darwin said that humans evolved from the apes. But that was misinformation put out by those that were antagonistic to Darwin’s theories that hoped to ridicule him into submission. In fact, Darwin never said that modern man ascended from the apes. He said there is a gap in the fossil record and that he did not know how modern man evolved.

    The chance of particles bumping together to form the right amino acid chain to establish one life-sustaining protein are 10130 or 10 with one hundred and thirty zeros. Paul Davies who wrote The 5th Miracle says that life requires hundreds of thousands of proteins and the chances of them all coming together at random are 1040,000.

    Then the odds that millions of protein molecules happen into existence by chance just as millions of DNA atoms also happened to become viable at the same instance, and that they bound together to form millions of species of animals, plants and insects here on earth, would be 10 to the power of all the zeros you could put down on a piece of paper between here and a distant galaxy.

    The problem with the theory of evolution and the particle-clang theory is that it is mathematically fraught, and in terms of evolutionary scales the total of earth’s existence, four billion years, is not a very long time. Many believe there has not been enough time for the random clanging of particles to create life, never mind enough to form the human eye, or a finger nail, or fifty million animal, insect and plant species that exist or have existed on earth.

    There is a third theory, called 'intelligent design'. It is akin to creationism in that it says that a superior intelligence created life on earth, but the followers of intelligent design don’t agree with the Christians’ six thousand-year time frame; they side with the evolutionists in believing life on earth is hundreds of millions of years old. (The oldest documented fossils of living animals are 540 million years old).

    Some say it was God that designed life on earth and others say they don’t know who designed intelligent life except that it must have been a civilization that is older and superior to ours. Some believe that aliens placed us here as an experiment, and while no one can disprove the idea there isn’t any evidence for it either. The problem with the theory of aliens from another star system is they would also be living on an earth-like plant that sustains life that is in this universe, and that planet may not be any older than ours. So there is every chance that aliens from another system would not be any further forward than we are.

    What is unexplainable is that modern man, Homo sapiens, suddenly appeared in the fossil record thirty thousand years ago. There is no fossil record of us having evolved from any other beings or animals, and there is no record of us having been here on earth before thirty thousand years ago. Modern man is not linked to the Neanderthals in any way whatsoever. So the fossil mystery gives rise to a speculation I call the "plopped-on-earth" theory. The question is what form of intelligence (if any) dropped us off here thirty thousand years ago.

    The Fourth Alternative

    The answer may be found in a fourth alternative, a transdimensional theory that says we weren’t exactly dropped off; but that we walked in from another dimension. We know from watching the Morph that this world is not solid and having seen transdimensional beings (Tall Boys) walk into this 3-D earth-plane from other dimensions, and having seen a human dematerialize out of here, I realized that the walk-in theory might be possible.

    The problem with all the other theories of origins of man is that they look at the earth and humans as solid. Once you realize that the universe’s solidity is an illusion then it is perfectly feasible that a human could walk out of a multi-dimensional, non-solid, hyperspace into the 3-D earth plane.

    Then particle-clang looks silly as the origins of our humanity and all of life on earth could well have begun in an eternal, twenty-six dimensional hyperspace that might have existed for trillions upon trillions of eons before this universe came into being, just 13.8 billions years ago. Humans could be very old, much older than the universe. It is also very possible that our Universe is just one of hundreds of thousands, maybe millions of universes, that various human species have evolved in over timeframes that are so astronomical in length they boggle the mind.



    Here below is a P.S. about the origins of man that I saw in the Mirror World.

    The Origins of Man in the Mirror World-Aluna

    The mystical Kogi people of northern Columbia called the Mirror World, the aluna. In the aluna there is a record of the origins of man on earth. In there, it is shown that man walked in naked from another dimension but he was initially unable to cope. It was as if his brain was not as yet activated to deal with a world of three dimensions and gravity, so he initially lay down on the ground and fell asleep.

    While he slept a being came to him from another world and it placed six psilocybin mushrooms on his chest, three down one side and three down the other. When the man woke he found the mushrooms and being hungry, he ate them. A while later the mushroom’s affect took hold of him, and his brain that had been previously dormant, clicked into action and the man rose and stumbled off to find others who had also walked into this three dimensional plane on exactly the same day. I would presume women got here in the same way at the same time as the men.

    What is fascinating is that the anthropologist and ethnobotanist Terrance McKenna, who wrote Gift of the Gods, knew about the mushroom activation of human consciousness theory but he did not discuss the walk-in theory. He believed humans evolved from a primitive state akin to automatons, and that they then took the mushroom they developed the self-aware conscious that we know today.

    I have no idea how we will ever prove the walk-in theory because by its very nature it left no trace of what happened, but as creationism and evolutionism are open to question, it might be an idea to consider the possibility of walk-ins. A sophisticated form of the intelligent design theory might be right in the end as it doesn’t preclude walk-ins, and when dealing with other dimensions in hyper-space, one isn’t constrained by the tightness of a few billion years that particle-clang theory asks us to believe in.

    I reckon we walked in here just as the animals and the insects did, and that life is trillions-upon-trillions of eons older than our rather new universe.

    ©Stuart Wilde 2006
    www.stuartwilde.com

  2. #2
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    Re: Where Did Humans Come From?

    i didnt actually read ALL of that (i skimmed over) but i still got the point. of all those theories, im thinking that the 4th one is the least accepted. anyways, if you are interested in this topic, then theres another very nice thread Titled "Creationism vs Evolution" (its on this site too). if you have already been there, than you already know i support Evolution. however. ill compromise just for the hell of it. i believe god made us in his image, but i also believe god was a primitive form of bacteria (so BOTH creationism and evolution could have happened lol). unfortunately, this also means two things:
    1. god isnt listening: if hes a primitive form of bacteria, then most likely his not giving a thought to anyone, or really thinking about anything at all.
    2. god, by now, has probably undergone mitosis, so that means there's ALOT of gods lol.
    p.s. the idea that fossils are on earth to test your faith sounds to me like nothing more than flat-out stubborn denial, actually, it sounds like an excuse a 12 year old would make up off the top of their head when they get into an arguement.

  3. #3
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    Re: Where Did Humans Come From?

    Ah, un-intelligent design.

    What idiot gave me an appendix? Also have a bone to pick about my skin, it's no good in sunlight. Keeps falling off.

    Maybe we were designed by a committee?

    Like the idea of multiple gods, one is not enough in certain situations.

    Darwin rocks.

  4. #4
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    Re: Where Did Humans Come From?

    Stuart Wilde is an a$$ clown. What he knows about science and evolutionary biology you could shove up a gnats a$$ and have room for an ice cube. Stick to New Age babble.

    The calculation of odds assumes that the protein molecule formed by chance. However, biochemistry is not chance, making the calculated odds meaningless. Biochemistry produces complex products, and the products themselves interact in complex ways. For example, complex organic molecules are observed to form in the conditions that exist in space, and it is possible that they played a role in the formation of the first life (Spotts 2001).

    The calculation of odds assumes that the protein molecule must take one certain form. However, there are innumerable possible proteins that promote biological activity. Any calculation of odds must take into account all possible molecules (not just proteins) that might function to promote life.

    The calculation of odds assumes the creation of life in its present form. The first life would have been very much simpler.

    The calculation of odds ignores the fact that innumerable trials would have been occurring simultaneously.

  5. #5
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    Re: Where Did Humans Come From?

    where did humans come from...umm fe-males, the feminen, and we've spent our lives trying to get back as much as possible...

    i wonder where we are going to myself...

  6. #6
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    Re: Where Did Humans Come From?

    humans come from humans :P

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    Re: Where Did Humans Come From?

    all of these methods that were employed to test the TOE, etc, have been devised by the mind. They were all an act of an intelligent being trying to find an explanation to his/her existence, or to fulfill some other purpose.

    The electric currents to form amino acids in jelly, to duplicate how life might have began, all of those experiments, were done by humans - with minds.

    we all know that the mind is an extremely powerfull thing. Why then is it so impossible for some to consider that an intellectual being might have been responsibe for all of this in the first place?

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    Re: Where Did Humans Come From?

    Quote Originally Posted by CoolitDown13
    Why then is it so impossible for some to consider that an intellectual being might have been responsibe for all of this in the first place?
    I don't think people have trouble considering it, I certainly don't, but I don't believe it either. It makes sense to some people and not to others, and unfortunately because it's not based on fact it can't be proven or disproven

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    Re: Where Did Humans Come From?

    Originally posted by subjunk:

    ...unfortunately because it's not based on fact it can't be proven or disproven
    I addressed this statement on the "Creation vs. Evolution" Thread.

  10. #10
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    Re: Where Did Humans Come From?

    Quote Originally Posted by CoolitDown13
    all of these methods that were employed to test the TOE, etc, have been devised by the mind. They were all an act of an intelligent being trying to find an explanation to his/her existence, or to fulfill some other purpose.

    The electric currents to form amino acids in jelly, to duplicate how life might have began, all of those experiments, were done by humans - with minds.

    we all know that the mind is an extremely powerfull thing. Why then is it so impossible for some to consider that an intellectual being might have been responsibe for all of this in the first place?
    It's not impossible. It's not probable. Based on what we know today about how things work, how they break down...it's not probable.

    How does one make the leap from knowing what we know, what we can do, whats currently being research and based on what science has been able to prove in the last 50 years....to "God did it"???

    I mean, from your own example above, you point out the discoveries and ability of man to explain his environment and then to say maybe someone els was responsible for it???

  11. #11
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    Re: Where Did Humans Come From?

    Quote Originally Posted by Synik
    How does one make the leap from knowing what we know, what we can do, whats currently being research and based on what science has been able to prove in the last 50 years....to "God did it"???
    I think the same.
    I also kindof think that even if God is responsible for all this that a healthy thing for us to do is to keep developing science anyway.
    I'm not against the idea of God, as I've said before if he showed himself to me in an obvious way then I would have no trouble believing in him, but as of right now I just don't think there is a god.

    Your rhetoric can be applied to the point I made before, that religion encourages mental laziness, because of course if people just say "God did it" they're not bothering to learn or discover anything.
    As CoolitDown13 pointed out there are many great Christian scientists, some of the greatest scientific minds of all time have been religious, so of course not every Christian exhibits this mental laziness but I do think religion is a great excuse to not discover or learn things.

    Also, branching off a tiny bit here (might create a thread for it if it gains interest) I think the idea of fate is also a lazy one.
    If one believes in fate then bad things were just meant to happen.
    For example if I were to accidentally go to sleep with a cigarette in my hand and burn my house down, if I were to survive the next morning I would think "hmm maybe it wasn't such a good idea to smoke in bed while I was tired" but if one were to believe entirely in fate there would be no need/want to examine the actions because it was just "meant to be".
    It takes all personal responsibility away from the actions you personally do which I think is absurd.

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    Re: Where Did Humans Come From?

    Let's go back a little further. To quote myself, "...an intellectual being might have been responsible for all of this in the first place"

    Firstly, you have to understand that matter cannot create itself.

    Keeping that in mind, the only thing that history and science have proven to be capable of creating (or devising) anything, is the mind.

    The following quote is taken out of context, but the main point applies to what I will elaborate on next:


    Originally posted by SYNIK

    It's not impossible. It's not probable. Based on what we know today about how things work, how they break down...it's not probable.
    Probable....Ahh, probability is a beautiful thing.

    If something exists, it is logical to say that it was created; as nothing is known to have the capability of popping into existence out of nothing.

    The universe exists. Saying that it was created is simply applying information that we already know to be true, as well as applying probability to the matter.

    Say you walked out of your house and saw a new car in your driveway with a ribbon wrapped around it. You could assume that it just happened to be there - that it just popped into existence. You can't entirely rule that out; it is still (for the severe lack of a better word) possible. But probable? Well, that's a whole different arena. You would be much more likely (and exceedingly more rational) to assume that your wife, who said she got you something special for your birthday, bought it for you and surprised you with it.

    That is an extreme simplification used only to rudimentarily illustrate the point I am driving at.

    Consider the fact that cosmologists have conservatively estimated the fine-tuning of the cosmological constant to be one-part in one-hundred-million billion-billion-billion-billion-billion (a 1 followed by fifty-four 0s). Chance? Possibly - but probably not.

    Using this scientific theory alone to implicate a creator beyond a reasonable doubt is exponentially more statistically significant than the DNA evidence used in courts to convict criminals.

  13. #13
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    Re: Where Did Humans Come From?

    Quote Originally Posted by CoolitDown13
    Let's go back a little further. To quote myself, "...an intellectual being might have been responsible for all of this in the first place"

    Firstly, you have to understand that matter cannot create itself.

    Keeping that in mind, the only thing that history and science have proven to be capable of creating (or devising) anything, is the mind.

    The following quote is taken out of context, but the main point applies to what I will elaborate on next:




    Probable....Ahh, probability is a beautiful thing.

    If something exists, it is logical to say that it was created; as nothing is known to have the capability of popping into existence out of nothing.

    The universe exists. Saying that it was created is simply applying information that we already know to be true, as well as applying probability to the matter.

    Say you walked out of your house and saw a new car in your driveway with a ribbon wrapped around it. You could assume that it just happened to be there - that it just popped into existence. You can't entirely rule that out; it is still (for the severe lack of a better word) possible. But probable? Well, that's a whole different arena. You would be much more likely (and exceedingly more rational) to assume that your wife, who said she got you something special for your birthday, bought it for you and surprised you with it.

    That is an extreme simplification used only to rudimentarily illustrate the point I am driving at.

    Consider the fact that cosmologists have conservatively estimated the fine-tuning of the cosmological constant to be one-part in one-hundred-million billion-billion-billion-billion-billion (a 1 followed by fifty-four 0s). Chance? Possibly - but probably not.

    Using this scientific theory alone to implicate a creator beyond a reasonable doubt is exponentially more statistically significant than the DNA evidence used in courts to convict criminals.
    If the Universe wasn't in such a state that it could support human life we wouldn't be around to make the observation that it wasn't in that state.
    Therefore the chance that the Universe would turn out this way, from our perspective, is 1:1 (well that's a ratio not a chance but you get the drift :P)
    I mean we obviously aren't going to agree on this thread but aside from that I would just like to say I have a lot of respect for you and I'm enjoying our interaction together =)

    Now, you say matter cannot be created, that's fair. Before I made my point I'll also say that I know God, if he exists, is supernatural and not made up of matter, but following that train of thought, that everything has to be created from something or someone, who created God? Who created God's God? Or God's God's God?
    If you believe God exists without time, that he has just always existed, then why is it so impossible to believe the same thing about the Universe, that it has always existed?

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    Re: Where Did Humans Come From?

    First of all, I must say that I have very much been enjoying this discussion. I have a great deal of respect for you, as well. Your opinions are well formed; this is very relieving because I don't have to educate you about your side of the argument as well as mine, which is very often the case when debating with someone :) There is nothing worse than trying to talk with someone who has no idea what they are trying to say. My argument with you (and SYNIK) has been the exact opposite of that.

    Originally posted by subjunk

    If the Universe wasn't in such a state that it could support human life we wouldn't be around to make the observation that it wasn't in that state.
    Therefore the chance that the Universe would turn out this way, from our perspective, is 1:1...
    This is a very interesting thought. But it leads me to another crucial flaw in atheism:

    Atheism, by definition, would require that the universe has no meaning (purpose) to it. It just exists, and always has with no purpose or intention whatsoever.

    I am going to quote C.S. Lewis here, because if you can't say better yourself, then don't, right? :

    "If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be a word without meaning."
    C.S. Lewis

    So basically if the universe had no meaning we wouldn't have a starting point to develop an inkling as to what meaning even is.

    Therefore the ratio that the universe has meaning from our perspective is also 1:1.

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    Re: Where Did Humans Come From?

    Still awaiting your proof, beyond your faith, of anything. You have yet to support one idea without ad hominen or with fact.

    "The universe exists. Saying that it was created is simply applying information that we already know to be true, as well as applying probability to the matter."

    Saying it was "Created" in the context you imply, is a jump to conclusion without any supporting data. You make that jump based on your religious belief and nothing else. There is no data or evidence to make that assumption.

    "Say you walked out of your house and saw a new car in your driveway with a ribbon wrapped around it. You could assume that it just happened to be there - that it just popped into existence. You can't entirely rule that out; it is still (for the severe lack of a better word) possible. But probable? Well, that's a whole different arena. You would be much more likely (and exceedingly more rational) to assume that your wife, who said she got you something special for your birthday, bought it for you and surprised you with it."

    Non-sequitur,...a logical fallacy. You cannot apply that assumption to Origins.

    I'm sorry that we hold your feet to the fire and not let you get away with repeating religious dogma. Again, come back when you have a data, evidence or a Theory.

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    Re: Where Did Humans Come From?

    i recently saw a program discussing the possable origins of matter. they believe that all matter has been created by the decomposition from a type of "semi-matter" called Neutrinos (i dont know if i spelled that correctly). anyways, some scientists theorize that the Big Bang itself did not creat any matter, but instead created Neutrinos, which naturally decompose, forming matter. neutrinos are infact, proven to exist. they were originally believed to be massless and move at the speed of light, but recent studies show that they do have mass and, therefore, cannot move at the speed of light.
    i, personally, dont know much about this theory, but to me it makes more sense than the original big bang or creationism theory.

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