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  1. #1
    umdkook Guest

    members who dont approve of Israel

    please use this thread to list some things that Israel has done or does, with the Us or not, that leads people to belivethe US must be destroyed cuase of Israel.

    im not gonna argue or anything, i am just curious as to what this country has done to make people think that is why Arabs hate the US.

    i tried this once before, and no one could provide anything useful besides the old "illegal occupation of palestine" argument.
    Dante you seem to be the one who can most contribute, please tell me what the us and Israel or just israel has done to make the world hate the US....

  2. #2
    umdkook Guest

    Re: members who dont approve of Israel

    dante i asked you specifically cuase of your comment from this thread.....

    here is what you wrote...

    "We never had any problem with these freaks when America was in the business of minding its own business. But then along came Israel...and well, the history is there for anybody to study who cares to be honestly objective about the glaring historical facts of life in the Middle East since 1948. "

    just what problems for the US had the existance of Israel created??? im not even sure US troops were sent to defend israel during the major wars they had....i could easily be wrong there, but please tell me what you mean by your comments there....

  3. #3
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    Re: members who dont approve of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by umdkook
    dante i asked you specifically cuase of your comment from this thread.....

    here is what you wrote...

    "We never had any problem with these freaks when America was in the business of minding its own business. But then along came Israel...and well, the history is there for anybody to study who cares to be honestly objective about the glaring historical facts of life in the Middle East since 1948. "

    just what problems for the US had the existance of Israel created??? im not even sure US troops were sent to defend israel during the major wars they had....i could easily be wrong there, but please tell me what you mean by your comments there....
    BBC News http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1585501.stm
    Sunday, 7 October, 2001, 23:26 GMT 00:26 UK
    Bin Laden defiant


    Osama Bin Laden has warned the United States that it will never enjoy security until the Palestinians also feel secure, and not until "the infidel's armies leave the land of Mohammed."

    This was apparently a reference to the presence of US troops in Saudi Arabia, where most of Islam's holiest shrines are located.

    To America I say I swear by God the great... America will never taste security and safety unless we feel security and safety in our lands and in Palestine

    The statement by Bin Laden was broadcast on Al Jazeera television in Qatar two hours after the US and Britain began attacks on Afghanistan.

    According to the station, it was recorded during daylight hours on Sunday.

    Bin Laden's statement was preceded by a call to Muslim youth to launch a jihad or holy war on the United States and its allies by his closest ally, the Egyptian Ayman el Zawahri.

    The two men were filmed standing against rocks speaking to the camera holding a microphone.

    Bin Laden said: "America was hit by God in one of its softest spots.

    "America is full of fear from its north to its south, from its west to its east. Thank God for that."

    Bin Laden did not claim responsibility for the 11 September attacks but warned US citizens they should fear further attacks.

    "To America I say I swear by God the great... America will never taste security and safety unless we feel security and safety in our lands and in Palestine," he said.

    "They will not feel safe until the troops of the United States of America withdraw from the Muslim holy places."

    They supported murder so God has given them back what they deserve

    He said that America's war on terror was a war on Islam.

    "These events have split the world into two camps - belief and disbelief. Every Muslim should support his religion," he said.

    He described Mr Bush as the "head of the infidels".

    "Millions of innocent children are being killed in Iraq and in Palestine and we don't hear a word from the infidels. We don't hear a raised voice," he said.

    "When the sword falls on the United States, they cry for their children and they cry for their people.

    "The least you can say about these people is that they are sinners. They have helped evil triumph over good."

    Afghanistan has refused to hand over Bin Laden, whom the US holds responsible for the 11 September attacks on New York and Washington.

    After Sunday's attacks had begun, a spokesman from the Taleban said both Bin Laden and the Taleban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar had survived the bombing.

    One of the aims of the US attacks on Afghanistan is to destroy Bin Laden's al-Qaeda network of militant fighters.

    Mr Bush has said he wants Bin Laden "dead or alive".
    Last edited by dante; 02-16-2006 at 07:04 AM.

  4. #4
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    Re: members who dont approve of Israel

    The Iraq War and Israel
    How 9/11 Report Soft-Pedaled Root Causes

    By RAY McGOVERN
    Former CIA analyst

    The 567-page final report released Thursday by the 9/11 Commission provides a wealth of data--indeed, so much detail that it is all too easy to miss the forest for the trees. Comments by the ubiquitous commissioners last weekend yield the clear impression that they would just as soon limit our horizon to the trees.

    On CNN's Late Edition Sunday, Wolf Blitzer braced commission vice chair Lee Hamilton with an unusually blunt question, prompting Hamilton to give the game away. Expressing puzzlement as to why the commission had ventured no recommendation regarding Iraq, Blitzer suggested one: "Don't go to war with countries that had nothing to do with 9/11."

    Caught off balance, Hamilton explained that dealing with the issue of Iraq "would have been highly divisive," and that commission members would not have been able to agree on a recommendation. Then, recovering quickly, he gave the official answer; i. e., that discussing Iraq would have been "well beyond any reasonable interpretation of what we were supposed to do."

    Thankfully, the putitave limits on the commission's mandate did not prevent it from putting the final nail in the coffin in which lies the scarytale favored by Vice President Cheney that Iraq and Al Qaeda were in bed together. Nor, curiously enough, did those limits prevent the commission from leading off its policy recommendations with ones regarding Pakistan, Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia.

    One can be forgiven for being struck at the incongruity of the commission's silence on Iraq, with 140,000 U.S. troops tied down there and terrorists breeding like rabbits

    Why They Hate Us

    The commission's desire to avoid unpleasantness shows through even more clearly as the final report tiptoes past a core issue--motivation. Chartered to "prepare a full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks," the commission might have been expected to devote considerable effort to discerning the "why" of the attacks--especially for those among us who remain impervious to the dumbed-down bromide about the terrorists hating our democracy.

    If you read page 147 of the commission report carefully, you will find embedded there a key sentence throwing light on the motive of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, whom the report calls the "mastermind of the 9/11 attacks:"

    "KSM's animus toward the United States stemmed not from his experiences there as a student, but rather from his violent disagreement with U.S. foreign policy favoring Israel."


    A footnote points out that his statements regarding the "why" of attacking the United States echo those of his nephew, Ramzi Yousef, when he was sentenced in New York to a prison term of 240 years in January 1998. Yousef, mastermind of the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center, accused the United States of supporting Israeli terrorism against Palestinians, adding that he was proud to fight any country that supports Israel.

    Hats off to commission staff for shoehorning that information in and to the commissioners who let it stay. This is highly unusual prose for a Washington establishment usually allergic to any hint at the cruel reality that Israel is the tail wagging the dog--the dogs of war let slip on Iraq by those in the Bush administration who draw no distinction between U.S. strategic interests and those of Israel.

    Bravo for the commission's attempt--however timid--to go beyond jingoism in addressing "why they hate us." On page 374 begins a section titled "PREVENT THE CONTINUED GROWTH OF ISLAMIST TERRORISM." There the authors pick up on the conundrum repeatedly expressed by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld regarding whether the United States is generating more terrorists than it is killing, and whether the United States needs "a broad, integrated plan to stop the next generation of terrorists."

    In gingerly language, the report points out: "America's policy choices have consequences. Right or wrong, it is simply a fact that American policy regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and American actions in Iraq are dominant staples of popular commentary across the Arab and Muslim world." --or, in the vernacular, "It's the policy, stupid!"

    Michael Scheuer, the CIA analyst author of Imperial Hubris: Why the West is Losing the War on Terror, emphasizes that Bin Laden's "genius" is his ability to exploit U.S. policies--first and foremost, our one-sided support for Israel--that are most offensive to Muslims, and notes that it is particularly difficult to have a serious debate regarding U.S. policy toward Israel.

    As if to prove Scheuer right, Commissioner Bob Kerrey yesterday on ABC's This Week recited a mantra that is as familiar as it is mindless: You cannot negotiate; you cannot compromise with those who have reached the conclusion that terrorism is their only option.

    But of course. Keep it at that level, Bob. Don't dare ask the deeper but simple question as to why such people have lost all hope for peaceful change. Have you really forgotten that there can be no peace without justice?

    I was reminded of Rumsfeld's melancholy musing on the same ABC program some months ago: "How do you persuade people not to become suicide bombers; how do you reduce the number of people attracted to terrorism? No one knows how to do that."

    Let's hope that Rumsfeld, Kerrey and others will read and ponder the implications of what is said on pages 374-377 of the 9/11 commission report.

    Ray McGovern, a CIA analyst for 27 years, is co-founder of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity and a contributor to CounterPunch's unsparing new history of the Afghanistan/Iraq wars, Imperial Crusades. McGovern can be reached at: [email protected]
    http://counterpunch.org/mcgovern07282004.html
    Last edited by dante; 02-16-2006 at 07:32 AM.

  5. #5
    umdkook Guest

    Re: members who dont approve of Israel

    hmm, good info and from relevant sources, however it still bases its argument on the fact that the US is wrong in that it supports Israel, no matter how Israel acts towards Palestinians.
    It also says Bin Laden was smart so he used the unfavorable view of the US in its relation and 100% backing of Israel as fuel to his fire...he did not so much say he hated teh US becuase they favored Israel, which still in itself is a not a good argument to attack them, as he instead said it was easy to take that controversial position and use it against the US.

    thank you though for providing just the type of info i was looking for. i was kind of oblivious to any real reason as to why people could hate the US just because of Israel, or why Israel existing was bad for the US. I dont agree with it as any real reason for hate, but i see what weak minded people use as an excuse to hate the US.

    I dont see how you cant admit that its not Israel that is really at fault, cause it seems people can only say "I hate Israel, the US loves Israel, so I must hate the US also". very childish, but then again so are many of those types of peoples entire mindsets....

  6. #6
    Join Date
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    1,099

    Re: members who dont approve of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by umdkook
    please use this thread to list some things that Israel has done or does, with the Us or not, that leads people to belivethe US must be destroyed cuase of Israel.

    im not gonna argue or anything, i am just curious as to what this country has done to make people think that is why Arabs hate the US.

    i tried this once before, and no one could provide anything useful besides the old "illegal occupation of palestine" argument.
    ROFLMAO!!!

    Yeah, that old "illegal occupation of palestine" thing.

    If you're going to dismiss the US military, financial, and diplomatic support of Israel's illegal and brutal occupation of the Palestinian territories and then pretend like you just can't understand why this leads to anti-American sentiment, then there's really not much else to say.

    What you just said speaks loudly for itself.

  7. #7
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    Re: members who dont approve of Israel

    i was kind of oblivious to any real reason as to why people could hate the US just because of Israel
    Oh, I doubt that very much.

  8. #8
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    12,866

    Re: members who dont approve of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by umdkook
    hmm, good info and from relevant sources, however it still bases its argument on the fact that the US is wrong in that it supports Israel, no matter how Israel acts towards Palestinians.
    It also says Bin Laden was smart so he used the unfavorable view of the US in its relation and 100% backing of Israel as fuel to his fire...he did not so much say he hated teh US becuase they favored Israel, which still in itself is a not a good argument to attack them, as he instead said it was easy to take that controversial position and use it against the US.


    I dont see how you cant admit that its not Israel that is really at fault, cause it seems people can only say "I hate Israel, the US loves Israel, so I must hate the US also". very childish, but then again so are many of those types of peoples entire mindsets....
    umdchuck, the US takes the mindset that it's wrong for any country to have dealings with Al Queda and by doing so they have made themselves our enemies. The US uses that line of reasoning to wage wars against these countries.

    You are right, it's not Israel that is at fault. It's the United States and just like Cheney it's about damn time someone up on Capitol Hill admits it before he completely destroys this country.

    Lady Mod

  9. #9
    umdkook Guest

    Re: members who dont approve of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Yirmeyahu
    ROFLMAO!!!

    Yeah, that old "illegal occupation of palestine" thing.

    If you're going to dismiss the US military, financial, and diplomatic support of Israel's illegal and brutal occupation of the Palestinian territories and then pretend like you just can't understand why this leads to anti-American sentiment, then there's really not much else to say.

    What you just said speaks loudly for itself.
    im not dismissing anything wierdo. what i am saying is that if the only reason people dont like the US is becuase they support Israel, that seems a litte flimsy to me. maybe you understand such childish pyschology better than me though. i have the mind of a normal person, i dont use reasoning such as "he is mean to me, and you like him, so i dont like you either" in order to explain blowing up buildings.

    you talk as though the US is the only country supporting Israel, and therefore the only country that deserves a harsh sentiment toward them.

  10. #10
    umdkook Guest

    Re: members who dont approve of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Yirmeyahu
    Oh, I doubt that very much.
    im serious!!!! i understand many countries dont like Israel, but i thought it was limited to mostly their arab neigbors. i never knew Americans had such sentiment towards them, and towards the US gov supporting Israel. I have not done any research reports or thesis studies on the Palestinian/Israeli situation, as Im sure you have, so the only thing i see/hear about them is what the media tells us. dont know what media you watch or read, but the ones i see and hear are ones that say "suicide bomber kills 8 in Israeli cafe" or "Israeli gunships kill 4 suspected terrorists as they drive down road". those headlines are kinda one sided, biased or not, but i dont get any negative connotations from those types of headlines, nor do i make up the headlines, i just read em...

  11. #11
    Join Date
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    Re: members who dont approve of Israel

    umdkook,

    what i am saying is that if the only reason people dont like the US is becuase they support Israel, that seems a litte flimsy to me.
    How is US financial aid in excess of $3,000,000,000 annually, as well as military and diplomatic support (i.e. vetoing UN resolutions critical of Israel) in support of the Israeli policy of illegally occupying Palestinian territories in a manner wholly inconsistent with basic principles of human rights a "flimsly" reason for Arabs to be disgusted with US foreign policy?

    Yes, my friend, you dismiss it. That's exactly what you do when you say US support for Israel is a "flimsy" reason for anti-American sentiment.

    you talk as though the US is the only country supporting Israel, and therefore the only country that deserves a harsh sentiment toward them.
    See above. When you can find any other country who supports Israel in a like manner, please let me know.

    ...nor do i make up the headlines, i just read em...
    Then you should have read plenty about how US support for Israel is probably the most oft-cited reason for anti-US sentiment in the Middle East.

    There are also other reasons, of course.

  12. #12
    umdkook Guest

    Re: members who dont approve of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Yirmeyahu
    umdkook,

    Then you should have read plenty about how US support for Israel is probably the most oft-cited reason for anti-US sentiment in the Middle East.

    There are also other reasons, of course.
    so by that reasoning, we should also believe these crazy people when they say we are all "infidels" and deserve to be killed?

    should we also beleive them1 when they say the only punishment suitable for drawing Muhammad is death??

    so you sympathize with them1??? Do you agree with them1 ???

    Bush often said Iraq had WMD's and the US must act before he1 uses them2, does that mean he2 was right simply becuase he2 said it a lot???

    lemme make the pronouns clear for you so you dont get confused.


    We=The US and its inhabitants/government
    People=Fanatical terrorists
    They=Fanatical terrorists
    Infidels=Anyone who is said to be attacking the Muslim faith
    Them1=Fanatical terrorists
    Muhammad=Highest and most revered prophet in Muslim religion
    He1=Saddam
    He2=Bush
    Them2=WMD's
    Last edited by umdkook; 02-24-2006 at 05:06 AM.

  13. #13
    umdkook Guest

    Re: members who dont approve of Israel

    o cmon give it to me, im ready for it im so ready give it to meeee....

  14. #14
    Join Date
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    Re: members who dont approve of Israel

    umdkook,

    I pointed out that "US support for Israel is probably the most oft-cited reason for anti-US sentiment in the Middle East."

    so by that reasoning, we should also believe these crazy people when they say we are all "infidels" and deserve to be killed?
    I'm afraid your question doesn't entail any "reasoning", so I can't answer it. I don't see your logic.

    so you sympathize with them1??? Do you agree with them1 ???
    I sympathize with Arabs who have a grievance over US support for Israel. I agree with Arabs who have a grievance over US support for Israel. It's a legitimate grievance.

    But that's not your question. Your question is:

    Do you sympathize with fanatical terrorists?

    No, I do not. I sympathize with the victims of fanatical terrorists.

    Do you agree with fanatical terrorists?

    No, I do not. I do not believe terrorism is an acceptable reaction to legitimate grievances.

    Bush often said Iraq had WMD's and the US must act before he1 uses them2, does that mean he2 was right simply becuase he2 said it a lot???
    No. Repeating things again and again does not make it true.

    What does this have to do with Arab greivances over US support for Israel?

  15. #15
    umdkook Guest

    Re: members who dont approve of Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Yirmeyahu
    ROFLMAO!!!

    Yeah, that old "illegal occupation of palestine" thing.

    If you're going to dismiss the US military, financial, and diplomatic support of Israel's illegal and brutal occupation of the Palestinian territories and then pretend like you just can't understand why this leads to anti-American sentiment, then there's really not much else to say.

    What you just said speaks loudly for itself.
    You know what Yir, i was looking back on this and i still have a big problem with it. you seem to think that Arabs have a legitamate grievance with teh US becuase of their staunch support for Israel. How is that legitamate??? I can see how some weak minded people can make that connection, but i cant see that as a legitamate grievance.

    The us gives money to EVERYONE almost, and that includes all the Middle eastern countries, even ones whose inhabitants pretty much hate teh US. Do jews/Israelis have a grievance with teh US becuase they give money to Palestine??? It still doesnt work for me that one should sympathize with Arabs who hate teh US because of their support for Israel. Its not the US that is providing helicopters to gun down Palestinian militants or providing bulldozers to tear down Palestinian refugee camps. They give them money, so what?? they give everyone money.

    if it can be shown that the US takes an active part in Palestinian/Israeli relations then I would understand how an Arab can hate becuae of association, but that has never been shown.

  16. #16
    coontie is offline Vashudeva; Ferryman - doing the work...
    Join Date
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    Re: members who dont approve of Israel

    Stew, fuss, fume, exclaim as much as you need, desire. In the end it
    does'nt really matter. You'll find there was a better way to expend your
    time.

    Nobody here is going to change anything, regardless of what you say,
    think or do!

    Trust me, trust the process... things are going as intended. :cool:

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