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  1. #49
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    Re: Dumbed-Down Americans Worshiping Lies & Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Samael
    He's blaming it all on Bush. I'm showing how its not all his fault...at least solely.
    Your partisan diapers need changing. When do you say Carter financed the Iraqi insurgency? When was that??? When did Al Qaeda gain a platform in Iraq? It wasn't under Saddam. He was a bitter enemy of Bin Laden. Do a little research yourself, before your next regulalrly scheduled Fox "News" programming session.
    Last edited by dante; 02-17-2006 at 07:18 PM.

  2. 02-18-2006, 05:35 AM


  3. #50
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    Re: Dumbed-Down Americans Worshiping Lies & Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Samael
    He's blaming it all on Bush. I'm showing how its not all his fault...at least solely.
    The Iraq war is partly Jimmy Carter's fault?

    Before you tell people to "Do some research", perhaps you should read their posts first and understand what they are talking about, and then not make assumptions about what they know or don't know beyond the context of their statement.

  4. #51
    umdkook Guest

    Re: Dumbed-Down Americans Worshiping Lies & Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Phinnly Slash Buster
    Taliban, Al Queda and new terrorist groups found everyday in Iraq are all fueled by drug money. Terrorists and narco-terrorists are the same people. Often overlooked by the new wave of bushco's propaganda blitz. The CIA and the State Dept. has had a long history of aiding and facilitating drug-dealers world wide. Iran-contra was just a footnote in this massive conspiracy.
    the heroin trade of the arab world and the coke trade of the latin american world are quite different my friend, as are teh mindsets and logistical mover of each group.

  5. #52
    umdkook Guest

    Re: Dumbed-Down Americans Worshiping Lies & Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Yirmeyahu
    They were terrorists, by any definition of the word.

    Just because they worked for us doesn't disclude them from any such definitions.
    like yo really need to be told this?? it doesnt matter who employs them, it matter the reasoning behind the actions they take. Muslims who blow themself up in the name of allah in the middle of a marketplace killing soldiers, women, children and whoever else might be around do so for the sheer terror of it..hence the name. they count on the fact that these acts will scare others into thinking it can happen to them next...hence our nonsene National Security Level colors. coke lords dont blow up marketplaces just to scare the government. they might do some nasty **** and kill some people, but not in teh name of pure and simple terror. you are arguing just to argu anyways, i dont think anyone on here needs to be schooled on the definition of a terrorist.

  6. #53
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    Re: Dumbed-Down Americans Worshiping Lies & Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Phinnly Slash Buster
    Taliban, Al Queda and new terrorist groups found everyday in Iraq are all fueled by drug money. Terrorists and narco-terrorists are the same people. Often overlooked by the new wave of bushco's propaganda blitz. The CIA and the State Dept. has had a long history of aiding and facilitating drug-dealers world wide. Iran-contra was just a footnote in this massive conspiracy.
    Quote Originally Posted by umdkook
    the heroin trade of the arab world and the coke trade of the latin american world are quite different my friend, as are teh mindsets and logistical mover of each group.
    Sure, they are "quite different" by virtue of the fact that they are separated geographically.

    But as PSB noted, "The CIA and the State Dept. has had a long history of aiding and facilitating drug-dealers world wide."

    i.e. - Air America, Afghanistan, Iran Contra, etc.

  7. #54
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    Re: Dumbed-Down Americans Worshiping Lies & Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by umdkook
    yeah, under American direction funded by American dollars. we all know the Iran contra story...
    and what made them terrorists???? they were just drug dealers, they werent terrorists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Yirmeyahu
    They were terrorists, by any definition of the word.

    Just because they worked for us doesn't disclude them from any such definitions.
    Quote Originally Posted by umdkook
    like yo really need to be told this?? it doesnt matter who employs them, it matter the reasoning behind the actions they take.
    Like I really need to be told WHAT? That it doesn't matter who employs terrorists, they are terrorists all the same?

    Butt, golly, isn't that what I just said?

    Quote Originally Posted by umdkook
    i dont think anyone on here needs to be schooled on the definition of a terrorist.
    Nor do I. That's why I said, "They were terrorists, by any definition of the word" without giving any definition for the word. Everyone knows what a "terrorist" is.

    So I'm glad we can agree on those to points.

    And like I said:

    They were terrorists, by any definition of the word.

  8. #55
    umdkook Guest

    Re: Dumbed-Down Americans Worshiping Lies & Ignorance

    ahaa ok then wierdo. so now we can all just attach any word we want to anythiing and say its right just cuase we say so??? ok im down with that...

  9. #56
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    Re: Dumbed-Down Americans Worshiping Lies & Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by umdkook
    ahaa ok then wierdo. so now we can all just attach any word we want to anythiing and say its right just cuase we say so??? ok im down with that...
    Um...

    Do you have anything rational, relevant, comprehensible, logical, or non-bewildering to say?

    Because when you ramble off all this nonsense, it's difficult to respond.

    I don't want to ignore you, but you make it difficult to engage in any meaningful discussion.

  10. #57
    umdkook Guest

    Re: Dumbed-Down Americans Worshiping Lies & Ignorance

    its hard to have meaningful discussions with people who make up meanings to words, things tend to get a little confusing. i thought you were going away for awhile???

  11. #58
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    Re: Dumbed-Down Americans Worshiping Lies & Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by umdkook
    the heroin trade of the arab world and the coke trade of the latin american world are quite different my friend, as are teh mindsets and logistical mover of each group.
    In some respects I agree but the drug cartels of Afghanistan and the Asian continent and the coke cartels of Latin America have many common links.
    Even their ideology is similar. Keep in mind that international criminals will embrace any ideology or religion that facilitates their agenda. Both groups are essentially fascists at heart.
    For a good resource on this find ‘The Underground Empire’ By John Mills.
    Mills based this book on information gathered through out the 70’s and 80’s. His resource was a group called Centac, a think tank and information collecting org. of the US Gov’t. Centac was commissioned to study the machinations of the international drug trade. They did not have any significant law enforcement power but shared their info with other Gov’t agencies.
    This group found a subculture of movers and shakers, money launderers and traffickers that moved freely from one group to another.
    Ollie North did not invent the concept of trading drugs for arms for money. That global network had been in place for many years he just jumped on board. The CIA and The State Dept. was always a part of it and in Iran-Contra the Executive Branch of The US Gov’t became heavily involved.
    Many of the characters and events from this book were used to create ‘Miami Vice’.
    The TV show’s stories were scripted in some episodes from the pages of ‘The Underground Empire’

  12. #59
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    Re: Dumbed-Down Americans Worshiping Lies & Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by umdkook
    its hard to have meaningful discussions with people who make up meanings to words, things tend to get a little confusing. i thought you were going away for awhile???
    It's hard to have meaningful discussions with people who only manage to reply with stuff that's utterly incomprehensible.

    For instance, you seem here to be suggesting I "make up meanings to words". Perhaps you'd care to give us just one example of an instance where I've ever done this.

  13. #60
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    Re: Dumbed-Down Americans Worshiping Lies & Ignorance

    Quote Originally Posted by Phinnly Slash Buster
    from the pages of ‘The Underground Empire’
    The Underground Empire -
    Where Crime and Governments Embrace

    by James Mills
    Doubleday, New York, 1986

    http://www.serendipity.li/cia/tue/tue6.htm

    “Jammed into a narrow seat between backpacking tourists in a 747 over the Atlantic, I reflected on my five-year acquaintance with Centac and the Underground Empire. A few related but disconnected thoughts:
    There is no question that the Underground Empire today has more power, wealth, and status than many nations. It flies no flag on the terrace of the United Nations, but it has larger armies, more capable intelligence agencies, more influential diplomatic services than many countries that do. We are so accustomed to thinking of crime in terms of street muggings, burglaries, and Mafia murders that we fail to recognize it as a major international force, a Fourth World of nations united not by military might, economic condition, or political theory, but by an ideology of greed, by the institutionalization of state-supported crime. These countries are our enemies, and more insidiously so than those of two world wars, for they conceal their attacks beneath promises of amity and cooperation.
    Without the cooperation of corrupt governments, the international narcotics industry could not exist. But governments, our own particularly, lean over backward to conceal this fact from their constituents (and sometimes from themselves), for to recognize it would cripple foreign relations. How can the American government accuse a foreign leader (General Noriega of Panama, for example) of pervasive criminal activity and at the same time deal with him effectively as a head of state?
    How natural, how necessary, it is that the United States government, principally through its intelligence services, should have secret relations with the Underground Empire, just as it must with other sovereign entities, even when they invade innocent neighbors and torture dissidents. The interests and methods of intelligence agencies are in many cases identical to those of high-level criminals. Both seek power, or the paths to power, through bribery, blackmail, and intimidation. So it is natural that as one progresses upward through layers of crime one finds more and more intelligence agents. They take power where they can get it. The world that international criminal groups have created is precisely the kind of world intelligence people seek out and populate. They are not only within it, but of it. If an intelligence agent finds that his asset, the man with the power, happens to be the world's biggest drug trafficker -- well, so be it. If you've worked hard to get him in your pocket and then see his power threatened, you'll work hard to help him hang on, even if it means a little smuggling -- drugs, guns, sacks of cash.
    The interest of the CIA is national security, threats to the country from without. The interest of law enforcement is internal security, the threat of crime. The CIA, in its pursuit of intelligence and influence, often courts the same powerful figures Centac pursued as criminals. But the external threat is always deemed more pressing than the internal threat, and intelligence wins precedence over law enforcement. The highly connected, tuxedo-clad criminal is left in place to provide intelligence to the United States -- and drugs to its citizens.
    Where criminal proceeds so vastly exceed those of traditional industries, a nation is tempted to stop fighting crime and nationalize it. And in Some cases, before a nation can nationalize crime, crime criminalizes the nation. This happened in Bolivia in 1980.
    International crime eventually ascends through politics, diplomacy, and statesmanship to a level of supracrime, where, having triumphed absolutely, it rules even that which had been created to destroy it, and is eventually not recognized as crime at all.
    So long as they do not seriously imperil American foreign interests, the United States government will take no effective action against international groups engaged in crime for profit. To assuage the anger of voters who do not like to be murdered, robbed, swindled, and burglarized, who do not like to see narcotics on sale in schoolrooms, the Pentagon, and Congress, future administrations will continue to re-declare the war on drugs. The war will continue to be a civil war, one aboveground sector of the government attacking the drug traffic on front pages and the seven o'clock news, another underground sector secretly permitting the traffic, at times promoting it.
    What can we do? It has, as my agent friend said, "been going on forever." The first coconspirators were two humans and a reptile, the first contraband an apple. Today the Underground Empire, the international narcotics industry, affects each one of us, from the films we watch to the music we listen to, the price we pay for our homes, the safety of our streets, the readiness of our defense forces, the honesty of our government, the behavior and habits of our children.
    You do not have to be a ClA-hater to trek around the world viewing one major narcotics group after another and grow amazed at the frequency with which you encounter the still-fresh footprints of American intelligence agents. You might never be absolutely certain the footprints shouldn't be there, but you will always be uncomfortable that so many solemn men in pinstriped vests are lying about them”.
    cont

  14. #61
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    Re: Dumbed-Down Americans Worshiping Lies & Ignorance

    Cont…
    The tracks are everywhere. The dapper, aristocratic Mr. Lung -- "02" to his American government contacts -- speaks laughingly of ClA-supported Thais helicoptering up the mountain to collect their "goodies" from CIA client Chang Chi-fu, the world's foremost opium dealer. Chang's heroin-dealing colleague, Chinese General Li Wen-huan, is known to be a CIA dependent. The CIA terminates Operation Durian, a DEA assault against Lu Hsu-shui, whose wife happens to be a cousin of Poonsiri Chanyasak, the Communist Lao government's "minister of heroin," and who himself turns out today to be associated with a representative of Communist Chinese intelligence. Assassin Michael Decker, suspected of CIA connections, describes a CIA weapons brochure found in the personal papers of Alberto Sicilia-Falcon, a major marijuana-heroin-cocaine dealer also suspected of employment by the CIA. Sicilia-Falcon and his influential bullfighter friend Gaston Santos join in a ClA-sanctioned Portuguese arms deal. Sicilia-Falcon's friend and adviser, CIA-trained Jose Egozi, also involved in the Portuguese weapons deal, talks to Centac agents and ends up hanging from a bed sheet in his Mexican prison cell. Sicilia, under torture, is said to confess to CIA drugs and weapons operations intended to destabilize Latin nations. Rearrested after his escape, facing assassination or further torture, Sicilia is rescued by a high Mexican official the CIA later identifies as its "most important source in Mexico and Central America." In Panama the CIA inhibits a DEA intelligence operation, and blocks a Washington meeting between Panama's drug-dealing leader and DEA bosses.

    The CIA may argue that it dirties itself in the narcotics industry because that is where it finds the leaders of nations it seeks to comprehend and influence. Over a period of five years I became convinced of the participation in the drug traffic of high officials in at least thirty-three countries: Afghanistan, Argentina, Australia, the Bahamas, Brazil, Belize, Bolivia, Bulgaria, Burma, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Cuba, the Dominican Republic, France, Haiti, Honduras, Italy, Jamaica, Kenya, Laos, Lebanon, Libya, Mexico, Nicaragua, Pakistan, Panama, Paraguay, Peru, Taiwan, Thailand, Turkey, and the United States. Not to mention a host of Caribbean, Asian, and European money-laundering nations, plus the PLO and various revolutionary and terrorist groups. In many cases the participation of officials was sufficiently high-level and pervasive to suggest the knowledge and approval, and at times the participation, of the chief of state. If the United States finds it necessary to deal secretly with powerful criminals, some of them masquerading as democratic leaders of free nations, it would be nice to know that we are aware of the price we're paying. How much intelligence and influence is worth how many heroin deaths? How many cocaine overdoses? How many marijuana-fogged seventh-graders? It would be nice not to be told that the problem will be solved shortly after the next election by another thousand agents, a few score prosecutors, a dozen new jails...

    The seat belt sign went on and the stewardesses began collecting headphones. In the past five years I had learned a little about the Underground Empire, its secret wealth and power, and I had also learned what a bureaucracy does to a renegade organization like Centac.

    Dennis had been right -- the FBI did not tolerate what it had not itself created. As part of President Reagan's war on drugs, the FBI took over responsibility for federal drug law enforcement, and in the bargain proclaimed Centac to be nonexistent. The most successful weapon ever fielded against the international narcotics industry, a weapon that had survived attacks by some of the federal law enforcement community's most influential constituents, a weapon whose support and enlargement had been championed by Congress's General Accounting Office, was destroyed by the FBI.

    Individual Centac investigations were renamed "Special Enforcement Operations," removed from any central, overall control, and dumped onto DEA's individual drug "desks." An SEO (as they were supposed to be called) dealing with heroin traffickers would go to the DEA heroin desk, cocaine traffickers to the cocaine desk, marijuana to the marijuana desk. If the targeted organization dealt in more than one drug, as many of them did -- well, that would have to be worked out. There was no SEO office, and no SEO boss. Speaking to Dennis on the telephone, I suggested that the FBI would claim they had so streamlined and centralized drug law enforcement operations that Centac was no longer needed.

    "That's precisely what you're going to hear," he agreed. "'Whatever Centac did all of DEA is now doing. We are putting all our strength into targeting major organizations.'"

    "But it means a lot more than targeting. It means a conspiratorial rather than a seizure line. That's not happening."

    "They're still going for powder on the table?"

    "Absolutely. And they'll continue to do that, and more of it. They are going hell-bent for arrests, rather than indictments."

    The truth of that was evident in the newspapers almost every day. The war on drugs was producing highly publicized arrests of men who later turned out to be relatively small-time dealers.

    "Well, that's sad," I said.

    "It is sad indeed."

  15. #62
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    Re: Dumbed-Down Americans Worshiping Lies & Ignorance

    The conclusion is that the US is NOT in a war against terror. The terrorists who fuel the insurgencies world-wide, the narco- terrorists, have complete sanction and support of the CIA and the US Gov’t.
    WAKE UP! BUSH IS LYING!!

  16. #63
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    Re: Dumbed-Down Americans Worshiping Lies & Ignorance

    The Underground Empire -
    Where Crime and Governments Embrace

    by James Mills
    Doubleday, New York, 1986

    http://www.serendipity.li/cia/tue/tue1.htm
    [Page 3:] The inhabitants of the earth spend more money on illegal drugs than they spend on food. More than they spend on housing, clothes, education, medical care, or any other product or service. The international narcotics industry is the largest growth industry in the world. Its annual revenues exceed half a trillion dollars -- three times the value of all United States currency in circulation, more than the gross national products of all but a half dozen of the major industrialized nations. To imagine the immensity of such wealth consider this: A million dollars in gold would weigh as much as a large man. Half-trillion dollars would weigh more than the entire population of Washington, D.C. [ed. note. in 1986 $'s, today the 'Empire' has expanded it's wealth and influence]
    Narcotics industry profits, secretly stockpiled in countries competing for the business, draw interest exceeding $3 million per hour. To what use will this money eventually be put? What will be its ultimate effect?

    Though everyone knows narcotics is big business, its truly staggering dimensions have never been fully publicized. The statistics on which the above statements are based appear in classified documents prepared with the participation of the Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency. These studies are circulated in numbered copies with warnings of "criminal sanctions" for unauthorized disclosure. Why is this information withheld from public view?

    The international narcotics industry is, in fact, not an industry at all, but an empire. Sovereign, proud, expansionist, this Underground Empire, though frequently torn by internal struggle, never fails to present a solid front to the world at large It has become today as ruthlessly acquisitive and exploitative as any nineteenth-century imperial kingdom, as far-reaching as the British Empire, as determinedly cohesive as the states of the American republic. Aggressive and violent by nature, the Underground Empire maintains its own armies, diplomats, intelligence services, banks, merchant fleets, and air lines. It seeks to extend its dominance by any means, from clandestine subversion to open warfare. Legitimate nations combat its agents within their own borders, but effectively ignore its power internationally. The United States government, while launching cosmetic "wars" on drugs and crime, has rarely attacked the Empire abroad, has never substantially diminished its international power, and does not today seriously challenge its growing threat to world stability.

    Why is this so? Do the world's governments not want to eliminate this expanding source of criminal wealth and power? Has there in fact never been an attempt to mount a truly effective global assault against it? Has there never existed -- does there not exist today -- some hidden, unpublicized, international force struggling against the Underground Empire?

    [Page 4:] I arrived through layers of security -- uniformed guards with side arms, bulletproof glass, closed-circuit television, magnetic locks, solemn-faced men with pistols concealed beneath three-piece suits, color-coded tags chained to their necks -- and now my escort knocked on an unmarked door, watched it open, and left me on my own.

    I was on the sixth floor of a shabby, featureless building in one of Washington's most notorious wino-junkie neighborhoods. Across the street something called The Olympic Baths advertised "A man's world of pleasure and enjoyment," and "Benny's, home of the porno stars" was just up the block. I stepped through the door and found myself in a cubbyhole office. Mozart played faintly from an unseen radio and potted plants lined the sill of a window that looked down through venetian blinds to a park filled with snow, squirrels, hookers, and drunks.

    A man came at me from behind a pipe-strewn desk, and I knew he was the one I had been asking about, hoping to meet. His name was Dennis Dayle, but his agents called him "D squared," Devious Dennis. To me he looked like Santa Claus -- plump, rosy-cheeked, eyes sparkling, wearing a wide, welcoming smile that had nothing devious in it. He shook my hand and said, "I hear you've been asking about Centac."


    [Page 5:] The previous night, at a dinner party in a Washington suburb, I had first heard the word "Centac". When I asked what it was, my questions were politely evaded or ignored. But now, without warning or explanation, I had been brought to Dennis Dayle's office for what turned out to be four hours of answers to every question I could think to ask.

    After thirty minutes the Santa Claus image faded, replaced by a vision of John le Carre's fictional masterspy George Smiley. Before me was a reserved, pleasant, knowing man who behind a carefully crafted reputation for ruthlessness and cunning concealed an extraordinary past. Driven by a romantic's dreams and passions, studying and conquering the symphonic complexities of global criminal conspiracies, he controlled something called Centac -- the most unorthodox, effective, and least-known international police organization in the world.

    Intrigued by what he told me -- wanting to learn more about him, about Centac, and about the powerful criminal conglomerates Centac fought -- I asked if I could remain with him, sit in his office, travel with him, observe him and his agents around the world.

    The answer came some weeks later, not from Dennis Dayle but from a man named Ted Hunter, chief of the Special Action Section of the Drug Enforcement Administration, who had been given the task of deciding whether or not I should be allowed access to Centac. Whoever it was in the Washington bureaucracy who gave him that responsibility clearly wanted to make sure they'd have someone to hang if things went wrong.
    Cont....

  17. #64
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    Re: Dumbed-Down Americans Worshiping Lies & Ignorance

    cont......
    During one of my meetings with Hunter (his nickname, of course, was Head) he stood with his back to me, staring silently out a window of his office, and after what seemed like several hours remarked painfully that all the training and experience of two decades in federal law enforcement told him not to do what I was asking. The possibility of disaster was too great. What if I exposed secret methods and techniques? If Centac let one writer in the door, how could it turn down others, how would it ever again be able to conduct business in private?

    I explained that publishing was the only industry in the world that functioned more slowly than criminal justice, that probably by the time my book appeared half the principals in it would be in jail, retired, or dead. I said I would let him read the manuscript and if he could point out errors of fact I would correct them. If he took exception to interpretations, opinions, or conclusions, I would listen to his side. I might not change anything, but I'd hear him out.


    [Page 6:] After a couple of weeks of consideration, Hunter agreed. Anxious not to jeopardize what might be a fragile decision, I did not ask why. On January 7, 1980, I walked back through Dennis Dayle's door -- it was like walking through Alice's looking glass -- and began what became a five-year odyssey through a labyrinthine underground world I believe no journalist has ever before traveled end to end, a meticulously filigreed web of conduits, passages, arteries within which hums and clatters a multibillion-dollar market of drugs, assassins, weapons, and spies. It was a world of diplomats, statesmen, global politics, and crime, where everything could be bought for cash -- lives, armies, the governments of nations.

    Never did I feel secure. I knew there were any number of politicians and bureaucrats who with one phone call could pull the rug out from under me. "He's doing what?" Trying to remain as unobtrusive as possible, I discovered that a vague personal approval could open almost as many doors as an official security clearance. A Centac agent in an American embassy in Asia, asked by one of the local bosses what gave me the right to wander through the restricted upper floors, said he had no idea, "but the last time I saw him he was in Washington in Dennis Dayle's office with his feet up on the desk." The boss accepted that.

    In another city an intelligence analyst reaching for a file cabinet with red SECRET markers on it, said to a Centac agent, "Can he see this?" The agent nodded, and the cabinet was opened. The analyst felt safe because the agent, a superior, had agreed. The agent felt safe because it wasn't his cabinet. I began to see how spies work.

    An informant repeatedly encountering me in the midst of Centac operations on different continents, failed to believe I was a writer, dubbed me "Jim from Washington," and kept dropping small complaints he plainly hoped would be relayed to my superiors back home.

    As I traveled, tape cassettes and classified documents collected in bank and hotel vaults around the world. In San Francisco my room at the Fairmont Hotel was burglarized, a locked suitcase broken into. What interest the burglar might have taken in Centac material I don't know (probably none), but in any case it was all locked downstairs in a vault normally reserved for fur coats. Eventually I gathered the research into three large safety-deposit boxes at a bank in New York, traveled further abroad, then returned to New York and hand-carried everything back to a bank in Europe, where I was living at the time. By then I had followed Centac through four continents, had collected hundreds of pages of classified documents, 183 two-hour tape cassettes (these eventually produced more than 77,000 pages of transcription) and 22 notebooks. Information continued to pour in. Phone calls came from as far away as Hong Kong, classified documents appeared in envelopes with no return addresses, a forty-pound cardboard carton arrived packed with CIA documents stamped SECRET.

    From the beginning, I found my interest expanding from Centac to a much wider subject, to the Underground Empire itself, to the secret alliance of criminal conglomerates and national governments. Centac became at once a lens through which to view that Empire, and a vehicle to take me to its center, face to face with its leaders, their wives and lovers, into their mansions and yachts, their banks and counting rooms, to a secret wonderland of wealth so vast it threatened the economic stability of the world.

    This book, I hope, will take the reader there too. For its subject, finally, is not merely Centac or Dennis Dayle. Its subject is the Underground Empire.

    Excerpt 2 The "War on Drugs"
    The CIA Serendipity Home Page

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