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  1. #1
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    AMERICANS HATE THEIR FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    Sadly, this country has devolved into the New Soviet Union under the single party tyrannical abuse of the Giggling Murderer and his cult of GOP thugs, and fascist goons and war criminals. According to polls, as many as 53% of the public are as clueless about the Constitutional parameters of executive power as they are astro-physics. It reminds me of the old saying: In a democracy, you finally end up with the government you deserve. Apparently, we deserve no better.


    __________________________________________________ ____________________
    WASHINGTON -- We are now learning what President Bush considers to be the limits of his power -- nothing.

    In public appearances this week, Bush defended his program of domestic spying without court approval, citing the inherent war powers of the presidency under the U.S. Constitution.

    The President points to his status as commander-in-chief and the resolution -- approved by Congress three days after the 9/11 attacks -- authorizing him to use "all necessary and appropriate force" against the terrorists. It is an obvious overreach of presidential prerogative; thin justification for what amounts to a snooping foray against Americans and others in the U.S.

    It all smacks of France's Louis XIV's famous dictum: "L'etat, c'est moi"-- "I am the state."

    The administration is on shaky legal ground. Last week, the Justice Department issued a 42-page analysis declaring the President "will exercise all authority available to him, consistent with the Constitution, to protect the people of the United States."

    The Justice Department brief also contended that some presidential powers are simply "beyond congressional ability to regulate."

    But the law is the law. The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 -- which was enacted after in-depth congressional hearings on domestic spying-- established a special court to issue warrants for electronic eavesdropping on suspected foreign agents inside the United States.

    So far, that court has been basically a rubber stamp for government petitions, rarely turning down a request at crisis times. The court permits emergency wiretaps without court approval for up to 72 hours.

    If court procedures tie law enforcement's hands, Congress is open to fixing it. "I know of no member of Congress, frankly, who, if the administration came and said, 'Here's why we need this capability,' that they wouldn't get it," said Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz.

    But the Bush administration wanted unfettered freedom to spy on who they want, when they want, with no legal constraints whatsoever.

    The President and his cohorts are engaged in a full court press to justify their dubious legal position.

    Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee will hold hearings on domestic spying Feb. 6. But if this GOP-run Congress runs true to form, Bush will have clear sailing.

    In an appearance at Kansas State University earlier this week, President Bush claimed that the post-9/11 congressional resolution provided him with all the justification he needed.

    "Congress gave me the authority to use necessary force to protect the American people, but it didn't prescribe the tactics," Bush said. "It said, 'Mr. President, you've got the power to protect us, but we're not going to tell you how.' "

    Bush's stand is all too reminiscent of former President Richard Nixon who said during the unraveling of the Watergate scandal: "If a president does it, it's not illegal."

    Bush might take note that the Supreme Court and Congress said otherwise, leading to Nixon's resignation from the highest office in the land in 1974.

    The Democrats, silent for too long, are finally stepping up to the plate, with former Vice President Al Gore leading the charge.

    Gore -- who lost out to Bush in the presidential race in 2000 -- is loud and clear, standing with the growing number of critics.

    "A president who breaks the law is a threat to the very structure of our government," Gore said. He called for the appointment of a special counsel to investigate Bush's domestic spying.

    Gore called the spying "a shameful exercise of power."

  2. #2
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    Re: AMERICANS HATE THEIR FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    Dante
    I agree with a lot of your points. Things don't look too good right now. If we put sanctions on Iran oil could go up to 90 dollars a barrel. However, I don't think the people in this great country consider us soviets. Mistakes yes we all make them but, I have faith that in time we will rectify our mistakes and continue to remain strong. Sometimes I do wish that we would put America first and all others second. I feel that we should take care of our own first. You do make some very good points and I applaud you for speaking up.

  3. #3
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    Re: AMERICANS HATE THEIR FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    Actually Dante, read up on war time Presidents and you will see that Bush has been the most tolerant upon the law yet.

  4. #4
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    Re: AMERICANS HATE THEIR FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    Quote Originally Posted by jmclaughtx
    Actually Dante, read up on war time Presidents and you will see that Bush has been the most tolerant upon the law yet.
    I beg to differ. I've read up on war time presidents. You are misinformed. The only case one could make in support of your claim is in regard to Lincoln and Roosevelt. Bush is the only "president" since who, while we were involved in military conflict, has actually arrogated upon himself the illegal authority to suspend habeas corpus for American citizens. This is the very cornerstone of our judicial system handed down to us from the Magna Carta.

    Furthermore, a valid case can be made as to whether we really are at war simply because Bush says so, thereby, allowing Bush to assert the collateral powers of a so called "War Time President", even if there really are such powers which is questionable in the extreme.

    Our Constitution does not provide for the executive to unilaterally declare a war and, thereby, arbitrarily and unilaterally exercise the power of a dictator.

    Bush has anointed himself with the power of a king and attempted to place himself above judicial oversight and review and the checks and balances inherent to our trilateral form of government. This is the conduct of a petty tyrant, not a president.

  5. #5
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    Re: AMERICANS HATE THEIR FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    "AMERICANS HATE THEIR FREEDOM & PRIVACY" americans are free & have privacy? since when?

  6. #6
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    Re: AMERICANS HATE THEIR FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    dante wrote
    Furthermore, a valid case can be made as to whether we really are at war simply because Bush says so,
    I think buildings falling on 9/11 kind of sums up the war thing. Then if you carefully follow the history of the attacks againest us going back as far as the 80's, I think it is clear we are in a war, it just differs from wars with foreign states as in the past. But it is a war none the less.

  7. #7
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    Re: AMERICANS HATE THEIR FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    Bush swore to uphold and defend the Constitution and he flagrantly is violating his own oath. He also belongs to a secret society (Scull and Bones) who seek to control world affairs in most covert manners.

    I fe he and his republican cronies are not stopped we will be soon lauching the "Sieg Heil" salute whenever we see him, while Stormtroopers will be goose stepping past him.

    If our forefathers and specially Thomas Jefferson, could see what is going on in our Nation today, he would turn arround in his grave.

    We no longer have Democracy in our Country but we certainly have an arrogant, tyranical government that no longer functions for, by and off the People.

    It's time to organize and let these bunglers in Washington know that we want real changes and not just lip service ( read my Lips?)

    Also, monitor your reps and senators and keep track of what they are doing and vote accordingly next time around.
    Last edited by tell214; 01-31-2006 at 05:48 PM.

  8. #8
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    Re: AMERICANS HATE THEIR FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    Quote Originally Posted by jmclaughtx
    dante wrote

    I think buildings falling on 9/11 kind of sums up the war thing. Then if you carefully follow the history of the attacks againest us going back as far as the 80's, I think it is clear we are in a war, it just differs from wars with foreign states as in the past. But it is a war none the less.
    Does that mean that we are also really waging a "war" on drugs and a "war" on poverty? How about a "war" on ignorance or a "war" on "obesity" or a "war" on drunk driving since we're in the mood to declare "war" on dangerous things. Guess what. These things have claimed infinitely more casualties in our society than the "terrists" in just the last year alone. Heart disease claimed the lives of over 100 thousand Americans last year, more than 33 times the casualty rate of 911. Since 911, it’s at over 100 times the casualty rate. Why not a "war" on that too?

    How about a "war" on tobacco? Do you know how many people died of lung cancer last year? Far more than all the victims of "terrorist" attacks ever recorded. Shouldn't Bush suspend the Constitution and Bill Of Rights to start spying on smokers too? After all, second hand smoke has been identified as a major source of cardiovascular disease.

    Bush’s so called “War On Terrorism” is axiomatically a false premise, logically ridiculous and, by definition, an impossible mission on its face

    How will we know when we have achieved victory in Bush’s so called “War On Terrorism”? When all the “terrorists” are dead? How and when will we be in a position to know that? And if we conclude that we’ve “won”, what happens if there’s another attack sometime thereafter? Should we declare another “War On Terror” and start all over again? If you have mosquitoes on your property, do you declare “War” on them and try to shoot each one of them down with a shotgun? Or does it make a bit more sense to look for the root causes of the problem and resolve that? Which approach makes more sense?

    I think this is why the Founding Fathers stipulated in section 8 of The Constitution that the power to declare war shall vest in Congress. This was in order to preclude the ability of petty tyrants and dictators, like Bush, to arbitrarily start so called “wars” and mobilize the resources of our military for the purposes of their own personal agendas.

    I agree that we have been in conflict with the Muslim World for a long time. But, it's been going on for over 50 years and started long before the 80's.

    They just didn't think the "little people" needed to concern themselves with it.
    Last edited by dante; 01-31-2006 at 06:18 PM.

  9. #9
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    Re: AMERICANS HATE THEIR FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    tell214 wrote
    Bush swore to uphold and defend the Constitution and he flagrantly is violating his own oath. He also belongs to a secret society (Scull and Bones) who seek to control world affairs in most covert manners.
    And the easter bunny entered a Masonic Lodge last night and issued marching orders so yet another secret society could gain control of the world affairs.

    As you can see, I am not much into the conspiracy theories.

  10. #10
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    Re: AMERICANS HATE THEIR FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    Quote Originally Posted by jmclaughtx
    tell214 wrote

    And the easter bunny entered a Masonic Lodge last night and issued marching orders so yet another secret society could gain control of the world affairs.

    As you can see, I am not much into the conspiracy theories.
    Just because there are conspiracy theories, doesn't mean there aren't conspiracies.

  11. #11
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    Re: AMERICANS HATE THEIR FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    Quote Originally Posted by jmclaughtx


    As you can see, I am not much into the conspiracy theories.
    No one is until the darn things stop being theories and become realities.

    Namaste'

    Lady Mod

  12. #12
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    Re: AMERICANS HATE THEIR FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    Quote Originally Posted by Bsilly
    Dante
    I agree with a lot of your points. Things don't look too good right now. If we put sanctions on Iran oil could go up to 90 dollars a barrel. However, I don't think the people in this great country consider us soviets. Mistakes yes we all make them but, I have faith that in time we will rectify our mistakes and continue to remain strong. Sometimes I do wish that we would put America first and all others second. I feel that we should take care of our own first. You do make some very good points and I applaud you for speaking up.
    well first off he didnt make any points he just posted an article written by someone else...
    however thats not the point of my posting here...i do not agree with your statement that we all make mistakes and we will recitfy them while remaining strong. as long as we have leadership that responds to terrorism using current methods, we wil not be "strong" and not "succeed".
    not that I could do any better than good ole Monkeyboy, but I'm not president so i dont have to know. we are on a downhill path here, and it sucks for us younger people who have to deal with teh flack that is getting thrown around these days, cuase it certainly will lead to harder times in years to come.
    this new day and age that we live in now is not due to the advancement of civilization and technology, but rather a regression back to older times when war/violence was the final solution, in my opinion. The radical muslim is a huuuuuuge problem in today's world, and so far the US and its administration has NOT figured out how to effectively deal with them. I do beleive world war will arise at some point in the next 25 years, and it may or may not be the US who "fires" first, but you can be sure if it happened in the next few years, they would be 1st or 2nd.

  13. #13
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    Re: AMERICANS HATE THEIR FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    Quote Originally Posted by Bsilly
    Dante
    I agree with a lot of your points. Things don't look too good right now. If we put sanctions on Iran oil could go up to 90 dollars a barrel. However, I don't think the people in this great country consider us soviets. Mistakes yes we all make them but, I have faith that in time we will rectify our mistakes and continue to remain strong. Sometimes I do wish that we would put America first and all others second. I feel that we should take care of our own first. You do make some very good points and I applaud you for speaking up.
    Thanks. You're more optimistic than I, but I respect that and hope you're right. Sometimes optimism is all we have to run on. I'm often reminded of Washington's prophetic farewell address when I ruminate over the appalling disasters the US Government has wrought throughout The World and the consequences we face as a result. Too bad the arrogance of power has blinded today's politicians to Washington's prescient and wise advice excerpted below. Hope to see more of your opinions here and best regards.

    .....In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges towards another a habitual hatred or a habitual fondness is in some degree a slave. It is a slave to its animosity or to its affection, either of which is sufficient to lead it astray from its duty and its interest. Antipathy in one nation against another disposes each more readily to offer insult and injury, to lay hold of slight causes of umbrage, and to be haughty and intractable, when accidental or trifling occasions of dispute occur. Hence, frequent collisions, obstinate, envenomed, and bloody contests. The nation, prompted by ill-will and resentment, sometimes impels to war the government, contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject; at other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives. The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations, has been the victim.

    So likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrels and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification. It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions; by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill-will, and a disposition to retaliate, in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld. And it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation), facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country, without odium, sometimes even with popularity; gilding, with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good, the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

    As avenues to foreign influence in innumerable ways, such attachments are particularly alarming to the truly enlightened and independent patriot. How many opportunities do they afford to tamper with domestic factions, to practice the arts of seduction, to mislead public opinion, to influence or awe the public councils 7 Such an attachment of a small or weak towards a great and powerful nation dooms the former to be the satellite of the latter.

    Against the insidious wiles of foreign influence (I conjure you to believe me, fellow-citizens) the jealousy of a free people ought to be constantly awake, since history and experience prove that foreign influence is one of the most baneful foes of republican government. But that jealousy to be useful must be impartial; else it becomes the instrument of the very influence to be avoided, instead of a defense against it. Excessive partiality for one foreign nation and excessive dislike of another cause those whom they actuate to see danger only on one side, and serve to veil and even second the arts of influence on the other. Real patriots who may resist the intrigues of the favorite are liable to become suspected and odious, while its tools and dupes usurp the applause and confidence of the people, to surrender their interests.

    The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none; or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.

    Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people under an efficient government. the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel.

    Why forego the advantages of so peculiar a situation? Why quit our own to stand upon foreign ground? Why, by interweaving our destiny with that of any part of Europe, entangle our peace and prosperity in the toils of European ambition, rivalship, interest, humor or caprice?

    It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world; so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it; for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs, that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat it, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But, in my opinion, it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

    Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies.

    Harmony, liberal intercourse with all nations, are recommended by policy, humanity, and interest. But even our commercial policy should hold an equal and impartial hand; neither seeking nor granting exclusive favors or preferences; consulting the natural course of things; diffusing and diversifying by gentle means the streams of commerce, but forcing nothing; establishing (with powers so disposed, in order to give trade a stable course, to define the rights of our merchants, and to enable the government to support them) conventional rules of intercourse, the best that present circumstances and mutual opinion will permit, but temporary, and liable to be from time to time abandoned or varied, as experience and circumstances shall dictate; constantly keeping in view that it is folly in one nation to look for disinterested favors from another; that it must pay with a portion of its independence for whatever it may accept under that character; that, by such acceptance, it may place itself in the condition of having given equivalents for nominal favors, and yet of being reproached with ingratitude for not giving more. There can be no greater error than to expect or calculate upon real favors from nation to nation. It is an illusion, which experience must cure, which a just pride ought to discard.

    In offering to you, my countrymen, these counsels of an old and affectionate friend, I dare not hope they will make the strong and lasting impression I could wish; that they will control the usual current of the passions, or prevent our nation from running the course which has hitherto marked the destiny of nations. But, if I may even flatter myself that they may be productive of some partial benefit, some occasional good; that they may now and then recur to moderate the fury of party spirit, to warn against the mischiefs of foreign intrigue, to guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism; this hope will be a full recompense for the solicitude for your welfare, by which they have been dictated. --- George Washington 1796
    Last edited by dante; 02-01-2006 at 06:09 AM.

  14. #14
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    Re: AMERICANS HATE THEIR FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    How Do They Know Who Is a Terrorist?
    by Charley Reese

    Both law-enforcement and intelligence agencies fundamentally depend on informants. Informants in foreign intelligence are at best traitors to their respective countries. Informants in domestic crime issues are often paid, either in cash or in deals cut on crimes they have committed. Altogether, they are a sleazy lot.

    One point many people often don't understand is that CIA officers are not spies. They are "case officers." Their job is to recruit spies (informants) and funnel the information back to the analysts.

    Naturally, every country tries to depict its spies as noble people opposed to tyranny rather than people trapped and blackmailed, soreheads and neurotics or simply greedy opportunists. Often, informants working for money in domestic criminal cases will actually entrap some innocent person. That's how the sorry episode of Randy Weaver began, which ended with the deaths of his wife, his son and a deputy U.S. marshal in 1992.

    A paid informant badgered Weaver, who was hard up for money to feed his family, into illegally sawing off a shotgun, something any 8-year-old with a hacksaw and a vise can do. The idea was to arrest him, threaten him with a long prison sentence and then coerce him into becoming a federal informant. It was a federal cluster you-know-what from start to finish.

    This is a short preface to the current problem of domestic spying. The Bush administration says it only intercepts calls from terrorists. OK, how does the Bush administration know that somebody in Europe or the Middle East is a terrorist? Terrorists don't walk around the street with little name tags identifying them and their organization. They don't call people and say: "Hi, al-Qaeda calling. Can I interest you in a bomb-making kit?"

    The answer is an informant or some other country's intelligence agency. The first thing you know is that this person is a terrorist suspect. If anyone had proof that he was a real terrorist, he would be arrested. You can get some idea of how unreliable these suspect lists are by the instances of pop stars, U.S. senators, babies and other innocent people winding up on the U.S. terrorist watch list because of bureaucratic goof-ups.

    Furthermore, it stands to reason that the National Security Agency has no way of knowing who this suspect is calling until the call is actually made. NSA doesn't put wiretaps on telephones. It sweeps the calls out of the air, and then the NSA supercomputers comb the messages for certain key words. My guess is that the NSA is intercepting all the overseas calls from Americans of Arab descent, people of the Muslim faith, as well as those who have spoken out on Middle East issues or have business dealings in the region. In other words, it's a massive invasion of privacy, not a selective invasion of privacy – or at least that's my guess.

    Ronald Reagan said of his arms deals with the Soviets: "Trust, but verify." The problem is, there are no ways the American people or their elected representatives can verify anything President Bush says on the subject of national security. It's all classified. The very practice of one equal branch of the government keeping secrets from another equal branch of the government is an unconstitutional act that ought to be ended immediately. We will have to wait for a Congress with guts for that to happen.

    I fear the expansion of American government power more than I do the terrorists. They are, after all, criminals who might shoot us or bomb us and get killed in the process. They are, by nature, a passing threat. A secretive government that scoffs at the rule of law and the restraints of the Constitution, however, is a very permanent threat to the freedom of the American people.

    Government power that isn't checked will just keep on growing until one day the American people will wake up neither free nor secure.

  15. #15
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    Re: AMERICANS HATE THEIR FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    Dante:

    This is happening right now befor your eyes.
    As I said before:
    If we the people don't put a stop to this NOW, we will be soon launching a "sieg Heil" to some self appointed dictator who will have goose stepping storm troopers at his side and a new secret police in the image of a GESTAPO doing his dirty work.

    I appreciate your comments

    Crossbow

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    Re: AMERICANS HATE THEIR FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    Quote Originally Posted by dante
    I beg to differ. I've read up on war time presidents. You are misinformed. The only case one could make in support of your claim is in regard to Lincoln and Roosevelt. Bush is the only "president" since who, while we were involved in military conflict, has actually arrogated upon himself the illegal authority to suspend habeas corpus for American citizens. This is the very cornerstone of our judicial system handed down to us from the Magna Carta.

    Furthermore, a valid case can be made as to whether we really are at war simply because Bush says so, thereby, allowing Bush to assert the collateral powers of a so called "War Time President", even if there really are such powers which is questionable in the extreme.

    Our Constitution does not provide for the executive to unilaterally declare a war and, thereby, arbitrarily and unilaterally exercise the power of a dictator.

    Bush has anointed himself with the power of a king and attempted to place himself above judicial oversight and review and the checks and balances inherent to our trilateral form of government. This is the conduct of a petty tyrant, not a president.

    Lincoln suspended Habeus Corpus twice during the Civil War, Jackson suspended Habeus Corpus twice for a six mile area around New Orleans, FDR tapped every mail and telegraph from Pearl Harbor throughout WWII, EVERYTHING from Europe went through the island of Bermuda and was listened to or opened and read.

    I am not misinformed and your comments about Bush annointing himself as King make for good soundbites but can not be factually backed up.

    As far as your comments on being at war are concerned, go visit the middle east and when we see you on video getting your head lopped off simply because you are an american, then try and convince me we are not at war.

    I watched the towers fall that morning in September and I have no doubt we are at war. I do not need Bush or the democrats to tell me that.

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