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  1. #1
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    Hamas wins, what will we do?

    They are saying that not even Hamas was expecting to win this big. So far they are saying they will not disarm and will not give up their goal to destroy Israel. With the west threatening to stop aid they are saying they can simply go to Arab nations for money.

    Well I say we let them. Why should we support them if their Arab brothers a willing to?

    Does anyone think that if they did denounce violence that they would really mean it? If you told me I had to claim to love you to give me $500,000,000. would I still say I love you after I cash the check? What is to stop them from later, after they have rebuilt at our expense, going back to wanting to destroy Israel? Would you believe them? I would not.

    It seems as if all they have to do is claim they have given up their reason for existing and the world will automatically believe them.

    I understand that people will suffer if we cut off our aid, but should we pay for the bullets that may later be aimed at our troops? Should we let Hamas try to stand on their own? Will civil war start in Palestine? Should we care? What will Israel do if civil war breaks out? What will Israel do if Hamas builds an army? What should we do?

    Is it possible that this was all foreseen? Is this part of Israel’s master plan? If Hamas builds an army and still calls for the destruction of Israel, who would blame them for invading? Would anyone come to their aid?

    What are some of your thoughts and ideas on this change in Palestine?

  2. #2
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    Re: Hamas wins, what will we do?

    Even if Hamas built an army, he would need more than his army to defeat Israel. It would take all of the Arab nations to accomplish it. Even then, Israel could get desparate and use their nukes. The hatred on both sides need to be addressed at the root. Land was stolen, and there will always be that aggression against the Jews in the middle east because of it. Just because it was originally their land, they lost it to other empires in history. Once you lose it, that's it. You have to fight to get it back. I wonder if Israel got their nukes from America ?

  3. #3
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    Re: Hamas wins, what will we do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawb
    Even if Hamas built an army, he would need more than his army to defeat Israel. It would take all of the Arab nations to accomplish it. Even then, Israel could get desparate and use their nukes. The hatred on both sides need to be addressed at the root. Land was stolen, and there will always be that aggression against the Jews in the middle east because of it. Just because it was originally their land, they lost it to other empires in history. Once you lose it, that's it. You have to fight to get it back. I wonder if Israel got their nukes from America ?

    I believe they DID fight to "get it back", did they not? They crushed four Arab nations like they were bugs and have since been giving captured territory away(for no reason).

  4. #4
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    Re: Hamas wins, what will we do?

    Hello,

    What should the Palestinians do? What should Israel do?

    Everyone has something to say about the occupied territories. Who they belong to. Who should leave, and who should stay. What is the answer? Putting an end to the Middle East Crisis, is crucial to the security of the world. So, what would you do?

    DeeDee1965

  5. #5
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    Re: Hamas wins, what will we do?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee1965
    Hello,

    What should the Palestinians do? What should Israel do?

    Everyone has something to say about the occupied territories. Who they belong to. Who should leave, and who should stay. What is the answer? Putting an end to the Middle East Crisis, is crucial to the security of the world. So, what would you do?

    DeeDee1965
    Simple: Tell the Zionists to acknowledge and adhere to UN Security Council Resolutions 242 and 338 or forget about any more swag from the US taxpayer. Remember those little things called Security Council Resolutions? Iraq was, purportedly, in violation of 16. Israel stands in violation of over 64.

    Guess who got invaded for not complying with them.
    Last edited by dante; 01-29-2006 at 04:53 AM.

  6. #6
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    Re: Hamas wins, what will we do?

    It's what they wanted, it's what they got. We wanted them to have an election and do the democracy thing and so they did. Tough cookies if we don't like it. Democracy is flawed, messy, and loud, but it's still the best thing going.

  7. #7
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    Re: Hamas wins, what will we do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusted
    It's what they wanted, it's what they got. We wanted them to have an election and do the democracy thing and so they did. Tough cookies if we don't like it. Democracy is flawed, messy, and loud, but it's still the best thing going.
    In fact, at least we know that Hamas was the legitimate winner of the popular vote. That's far more than the "gun-boat" nation builders here can claim about the "the land of the free" and its "leadership".

  8. #8
    umdkook Guest

    Re: Hamas wins, what will we do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawb
    Even if Hamas built an army, he would need more than his army to defeat Israel. It would take all of the Arab nations to accomplish it. Even then, Israel could get desparate and use their nukes. The hatred on both sides need to be addressed at the root. Land was stolen, and there will always be that aggression against the Jews in the middle east because of it. Just because it was originally their land, they lost it to other empires in history. Once you lose it, that's it. You have to fight to get it back. I wonder if Israel got their nukes from America ?
    i also belive they did fight to get it back, and tehy fought against every arab neighbor surrounding them and somehow managed to win AND advance their armies into neighboring nations.

  9. #9
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    Re: Hamas wins, what will we do?

    "I've asked why nobody saw it coming. It does say something about us not having a good enough pulse. "
    CONDOLEEZZA RICE, on Hamas's victory in Palestinian elections.

  10. #10
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    Re: Hamas wins, what will we do?

    Rice Admits U.S. Underestimated Hamas Strength
    By STEVEN R. WEISMAN

    LONDON, Jan. 29 — Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice acknowledged Sunday that the United States had failed to understand the depth of hostility among Palestinians toward their longtime leaders. The hostility led to an election victory by the militant group Hamas that has reduced to tatters crucial assumptions underlying American policies and hopes in the Middle East.

    "I've asked why nobody saw it coming," Ms. Rice said, speaking of her own staff. "It does say something about us not having a good enough pulse."

    Immediately after the election, Bush administration officials said the results reflected a Palestinian desire for change and not necessarily an embrace of Hamas, which the United States, Israel and the European Union consider a terrorist organization sworn to Israel's destruction. But Ms. Rice's comments seemed to reflect a certain second-guessing over how the administration had failed to foresee, or factor into its thinking, the possibility of a Hamas victory.

    Indeed, Hamas's victory has set off a debate whether the administration was so wedded to its belief in democracy that it could not see the dangers of holding elections in regions where Islamist groups were strong and democratic institutions weak.

    "There is a lot of blame to go around," said Martin Indyk, a top Middle East negotiator in the Clinton administration, referring to Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president, and his Fatah party. "But on the American side, the conceptual failure that contributed to disaster was the president's belief that democracy and elections solve everything."

    Ms. Rice pointed out that the election results surprised just about everyone. "I don't know anyone who wasn't caught off guard by Hamas's strong showing," she said on her way to London for meetings on the Middle East, Iran and other matters. "Some say that Hamas itself was caught off guard by its strong showing."

    With increasing vehemence in the last few days, administration officials have defended their decision to back Mr. Abbas with American aid and to rebuff Israel when it warned that the election should not be held as long as Hamas participated while refusing to lay down its arms. Those officials continue to lay most of the blame on Mr. Abbas for not offering a positive alternative to Hamas.

    American officials say they were never comfortable with Mr. Abbas's decision that the elections be held without the disarmament of Hamas, but they went along with it because there was no alternative. One official recounted how President Bush had personally but unsuccessfully appealed to Mr. Abbas at the White House last October to disarm Hamas before the elections.

    "The fact is, Abu Mazen wouldn't do it," said the official, referring to Mr. Abbas. "He said he wouldn't do it, because he said he couldn't do it."

    What Mr. Abbas instead offered at the White House was a plan to avoid a civil war among Palestinians by winning the election and only then disarming Hamas and folding it into the mainstream. The administration resolved, in turn, to support Mr. Abbas's political party with whatever diplomacy or resources it could.

    Even while acknowledging the failure to foresee a Hamas victory, Ms. Rice said the American decisions were basically correct. Contrary to some reports that even Mr. Abbas wanted the elections delayed, she said a postponement was neither possible nor desirable.

    "Our constant discussions with Abu Mazen suggested that he wanted to go ahead with the elections and go ahead with them on time," Ms. Rice said. "We had to support that. I just don't understand the argument that somehow it would have gotten better the longer it went on."

    At another point, she said: "You ask yourself, Are you going to support a policy of denying the Palestinians elections that had been promised to them at a certain point in time because people were fearful of the outcome?"

    Others noted that the Palestinian elections had been postponed once already, from last summer to January, to give Mr. Abbas and Fatah time to capitalize on the pullout of Israeli settlers from Gaza in August.

    To help Mr. Abbas, the United States and its European partners mobilized hundreds of millions of dollars in aid for the Palestinians to meet their payrolls, field their security forces, make welfare payments and build infrastructure.

    The total outside assistance to the Palestinians runs to more than $1 billion a year. Now Ms. Rice will meet in London on Monday with top officials of Europe, the United Nations and Russia to call on Hamas to abandon its vow to destroy Israel and to disarm and negotiate a two-state solution in the Middle East, or risk having this aid cut off.

    "You've got to hedge against the risk that elections are going to lead to precisely this result," said Mr. Indyk, the former Middle East negotiator. "The hedge is to build civil society and democratic institutions first. But this administration doesn't listen to that."

    Many experts blame the Palestinians for most of their problems, particularly the corruption and mismanagement in Mr. Abbas's Fatah organization. Hamas, by contrast, capitalized on its image of integrity and its record of delivering services.

    Mr. Abbas is widely described as bitter that he failed to strengthen his hand by getting American help in persuading Israel to curb settlement growth, release prisoners and lift the checkpoints and roadblocks choking off livelihoods in the West Bank. By all accounts, Mr. Abbas's frustration with the administration on this score was met with frustration on the American side that he was not doing enough to crack down on violence and root out corruption.

    The administration was also under pressure from Europeans to try to coax Hamas into the mainstream, and it did not want to rebuff their advice at a time when it was trying to work closely with the Europeans on isolating Iran.

    Administration officials said that even in the analysis of Israelis, Hamas's behavior in accepting a period of "calm" in the last year — ceasing its attacks on Israeli civilians — meant that it was willing to break with other groups like Hezbollah and the Palestinian Islamic Jihad. Israeli and American officials felt that such a trend was to be encouraged.

    As for Mr. Abbas's position on disarming Hamas after the elections, an administration official said: "Our sense was that there was a certain logic to his presentation, and we did not see that we could force an alternative on him. But we were also skeptical."

    The administration then immediately began working with European and other allies to set up "normative standards" for any group participating in the political process. Those standards are to be the focus of the talks in London, with the financing cutoff an implicit threat to Hamas. But a cutoff could force Hamas to turn to other sources, like Iran, for help.

    Ms. Rice told reporters that she was convinced of the wisdom of instilling democracy in the Middle East. Elections have brought into office anti-American Islamic radicals in Egypt, Lebanon and Iran, but Ms. Rice said the alternative was trying to bottle up seething anger in the region that could lead to more terrorist attacks in the West.

    "There is a huge transition going on in the Middle East, as a whole and in its parts," she said. "The outcomes that we're seeing in any number of places, I will be the first to say, have a sense of unpredictability about them. That's the nature of big historic change. It's simply the way it is."

    .

  11. #11
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    Re: Hamas wins, what will we do?

    "condo" leeza rice patty is almost as "dumbwitted as "W".but then again..who picked her!?hehe!!i saw a PBS special on the hammas movement and i was totally taken aback from the "popular news" opinion of the group!no wonder they can relate to the "people" in the streets!hehe!every cause has it's radicals but at least this one is currently based in sound concern for the common man of the region.that could change of course.at least for the time bein they are true to their followers.on what does this depend!?that is the question.evryone wants to rule the world!!hehe!!

  12. #12
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    Re: Hamas wins, what will we do?

    Bush said Hamas should disarm in his speech. That's interesting, considering the second amendment to the US Constitution. Apparently, only Israel has the right to bear arms.

  13. #13
    umdkook Guest

    Re: Hamas wins, what will we do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yirmeyahu
    Bush said Hamas should disarm in his speech. That's interesting, considering the second amendment to the US Constitution. Apparently, only Israel has the right to bear arms.
    yes I am also curious about this concept. now that they are in charge, are they no longer terrorists, merely just national military soldiers?

  14. #14
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    Re: Hamas wins, what will we do?

    Israel has a record of terrorists or members of terrorist groups being elected to government. For example:

    Yitzhak Shamir, former prime minister and member of Lehi (Stern Gang), responsible for assassination of Count Folke Bernadotte.

    Menachem Begin, former prime minister and leader of Irgun at the time of the King David Hotel bombing.

    Then there's Ariel Sharon, "the Butcher of Beirut", responsible for the massacre of hundreds of unarmed civilians, including women and children, at the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps.

  15. #15
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    Re: Hamas wins, what will we do?

    Quote Originally Posted by umdkook
    i also belive they did fight to get it back, and tehy fought against every arab neighbor surrounding them and somehow managed to win AND advance their armies into neighboring nations.
    So they just magically appeared in the middle east and started kicking everyone's a$$es then ? Another prophet parted the sea again to make their journey from Europe to the middle east ? No, they had some help. It wasn't a band of Jews in Poland who decided one day to buy some guns and hand grenades and say, "we are going to take back our homeland". Think about that. Supplies and money from the U.S maybe ? other countries as well ? Big difference from taking it back, truly on your own, or with the help of the world's super power. Remember that most of the middle east, save Saudi Arabia, and Turkey, was part of the British empire at one time. Hmmm...

  16. #16
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    Re: Hamas wins, what will we do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rawb
    So they just magically appeared in the middle east and started kicking everyone's a$$es then ? Another prophet parted the sea again to make their journey from Europe to the middle east ? No, they had some help. It wasn't a band of Jews in Poland who decided one day to buy some guns and hand grenades and say, "we are going to take back our homeland". Think about that. Supplies and money from the U.S maybe ? other countries as well ? Big difference from taking it back, truly on your own, or with the help of the world's super power. Remember that most of the middle east, save Saudi Arabia, and Turkey, was part of the British empire at one time. Hmmm...
    Actually, if there is any one group originally responsible for assisting the Zionists in their annexation of Palestine, it was The Nazis.

    Excerpt: Zionism in the Age of the Dictators-- Lenni Brenner
    http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/ch07.htm

    In May 1935 Reinhardt Heydrich, who was then the chief of the SS Security Service, later the infamous “Protector” of the Czech lands incorporated into the Reich, wrote an article, The Visible Enemy, for Das Schwarze Korps, the official organ of the SS. In it Heydrich assessed the various tendencies among the Jews, comparing the assimilationists quite invidiously with the Zionists. His partiality towards Zionism could not have been expressed in more unmistakable term.s:

    "After the Nazi seizure of power our racial laws did in fact curtail considerably the immediate influence of Jews." But ... the question as he sees it is still: "How can we win back our old position ... We must separate Jewry into two categories... the Zionists and those who favor being assimilated. The Zionists adhere to a strict racial position and by emigrating to Palestine they are helping to build their own Jewish state."

    Heydrich wished them a fond farewell: “The time cannot be far distant when Palestine will again be able to accept its sons who have been lost to it for over a thousand years. Our good wishes together with our official good will go with them.”
    Last edited by dante; 02-04-2006 at 04:34 PM.

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