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  1. #33
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    Re: Slouching Toward Kristallnacht

    Quote Originally Posted by Phinnly Slash Buster
    DeeDee is right, the links and comparisons of this pres. to Nazi’s are very much on point. The Bushes have had well documented dealing with Hitler and Nazi's in exile from pre-war days [WWII] to 1951. After that time the family has also been involved with supporting terrorist activities both here and abroad.
    Hi Phinnly,

    Very interesting, the well documented part. I have never heard this before, can you post places to check this out?

    Thanks

  2. #34
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    Re: Slouching Toward Kristallnacht

    Quote Originally Posted by Worried_in_the_USA
    Hi Phinnly,

    Very interesting, the well documented part. I have never heard this before, can you post places to check this out?

    Thanks

    Thread originated with DANTE.
    http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=9030

    I don’t know the whole story but I was aware of this several years ago. See the book Trading with The Enemy by Charles Higham.
    [http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fa...my_Higham.html
    Some of story as I know it is many of the Nazi’ escaping from Europe through the ratlines, post WWII, enmeshed themselves in the fabric of the Military Industrial Complex. They became a driving force in formulating our foreign policy especially in the cold war years. Several members of the bush family were involved in this cabal.
    Last edited by Phinnly Slash Buster; 01-21-2006 at 06:34 PM.

  3. #35
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    Re: Slouching Toward Kristallnacht

    Quote Originally Posted by Phinnly Slash Buster
    Thread originated with DANTE.
    http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=9030

    I don’t know the whole story but I was aware of this several years ago. See the book Trading with The Enemy by Charles Higham.
    [http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fa...my_Higham.html
    Some of story as I know it is many of the Nazi’ escaping from Europe through the ratlines, post WWII, enmeshed themselves in the fabric of the Military Industrial Complex. They became a driving force in formulating our foreign policy especially in the cold war years. Several members of the bush family were involved in this cabal.

    Yeeah....and the aliens. Don't forget the aliens.

  4. #36
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    Re: Slouching Toward Kristallnacht

    Quote Originally Posted by pwrone
    Yeeah....and the aliens. Don't forget the aliens.
    Your comment does not surprise me.
    Some people here think you're an alien!!!

  5. #37
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    Re: Slouching Toward Kristallnacht

    Hi Pwrone,

    I answered, you flamed, I am proved correct.

    I will posting this one more time.

    Section from excerpt:

    "And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can’t prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don’t know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.


    Subtlety, nuance, different layers and levels of perception, are wasted on you. This is why the excerpt I posted is relevant. YOU, are the reason this thread was created. Why I think having a multilayered, multifaceted debate is the possible on a message board, just speaks to "my" naivete. The battle is on the ground, and not on the Internet.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Quote Originally Posted by RegulationE
    As was pointed out earlier in this thread, you seem to be comparing Present Day USA to Hitler Germany and forgetting that we elect new administrations to the White House every 4 years and no President can stay longer then two t.erms. Congress is elected in waves, although this is the branch of government that concerns me because there are no t.erm limits.
    Hi RegulationE,

    Hitler, was V.O.T.E.D. into office.

    Read This:Remembering the Lessons of Germany's Past

    Chuck Baldwin is NOT a liberal, but a Conservative, Christian, and Founder-Pastor of the Crossroad Baptist Church, Pensacola FL. See Link

    I will say now, after some research on the, H.J. Res.24, referenced in Dr. Baldwin's commentary, this particular bill has been introduced again and again, since the 99th Congress. Also, according to one of the sponsors, Rep. Steny Hoyer, if the 22 Amendment is repealed, it would not allow Pres. Bush to seek a third term. So, I am not proffering a conspiracy theory. ;)

    DeeDee1965

  6. #38
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    Re: Slouching Toward Kristallnacht

    HE DOES WANT TO CROWN HIMSELF KING!!! Thanks for link DeeDee

    The 22nd Amendment

    Section 1. No person shall be elected to the office of the President more than twice, and no person who has held the office of President, or acted as President, for more than two years of a term to which some other person was elected President shall be elected to the office of the President more than once. But this Article shall not apply to any person holding the office of President when this Article was proposed by the Congress, and shall not prevent any person who may be holding the office of President, or acting as President, during the term within which this Article becomes operative from holding the office of President or acting as President during the remainder of such term.

    Section. 2. This article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States within seven years from the date of its submission to the States by the Congress.

  7. #39
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    Re: Slouching Toward Kristallnacht

    I have read many of the links on this post and others. I do understand your concerns, but I wonder how “BushCo” would accomplish things here in the U.S. Too many Americans own guns and know how to use them. I know lots of people that have more guns and bullets than some countries. Most are expert shots and have scopes bigger than some telescopes. Our Army is not the army of 1940’s Germany; our kids will not kill innocent civilians, our Generals will not follow immoral orders to the extend required for BushCo to take over.

    How long do you really think they could keep BushCo alive? It is very easy to rule over unarmed masses, it is a whole new ball game in an armed population. You can see how hard it is for us to control Iraq, a country the size of Mississippi. We here have access to things the terrorist only dream of, roadside bombs and remote detonators could be made by the thousands every day all across this great nation. Radio controlled model airplanes number in the millions and each one could be a very big problem. Cell phones number in the tens of millions. Very dangerous chemicals are a very big part of our economy, they could never fix things as fast as we would destroy them.

    If BushCo can not control Iraq, how could they ever control us?

  8. #40
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    Re: Slouching Toward Kristallnacht

    Well DeeDee... I am really stumped now as to just where you think this thread should be going... I have to toss my hat into the ring with pwrone and worried on this one... I totally understand the necessity to question and challenge, as well as, remain aware. The 22 amendment issue is a good one... well worth publicizing... thanks. I plan on opposing it if what I learn on the issue supports your claims... 2 t e r m s in office is enough.

    IMO pwrone did not 'flame' you. I have to agree with him... many of the items you listed were simply local news items that happened to make the national news, but, they are just 'side-show' items... the kind of stuff that goes on all the time. As with 'worried'... an actual coup will not take place... we as a people are too heavily armed and I for one... pwrone and worried as well I'm sure... would staunchly oppose such a thing.

    From what I've read so far your topic and stance is just vague enough to allow for blank agreement only. You have enough vague statements in your original article to quell any possible dissent with your point of view... effectively becomming what you are trying to warn against.

    Don't think your point is wasted for it is not. Raised awareness is a good thing.

    Paul

  9. #41
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    Re: Slouching Toward Kristallnacht

    Quote Originally Posted by Worried_in_the_USA
    If BushCo can not control Iraq, how could they ever control us?

    Worried_in_the_USA
    Well stated and in a general terms sense I tend to agree. At present even if Bush had overwhelming support of the masses [which he does not] the destruction of constitutional rights and the devaluation of human rights will not happen here as it did in pre-WWII Germany.
    When we take a look at what he already done it should cause great distress to anyone who is concerned with the destruction of our civil liberties.
    Add to that failed attempts to pull and end run around civil rights and plans this administration has for the future and picture gets pretty ugly pretty quick
    Examples:
    Harassment of groups exercising the right of assembly and protest [Quakers, PETA and others.]

    Greenpeace: Last year, two of its activists boarded a ship that was smuggling illegally harvested rainforest mahogany and unfurled a banner that called on President Bush to act. But instead of going after the smugglers, the Justice Department went out of its way to file criminal charges against Greenpeace, citing an antiquated 1872 law. It's the first time in our history the government has prosecuted an entire organization for the free speech activities of its supporters. [10] (http://www.tompaine.com/op_ads/opad2.cfm/ID/9523)

    From a previous post here on the Patriot Act:
    http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=3980
    The new FBI department involves the integration of law enforcement and domestic spying. Its mandate is essentially political and is directed at curbing all forms of social and political dissent in America. It is concerned with various categories of "domestic enemies", which "threaten the security of the Homeland," namely which question the legitimacy of the "war on terrorism." According to a 2004 Report of the Homeland Security Council, these domestic "conspirators" are said to be acting in coordination with "foreign terrorists." The report identified "domestic radical groups" and "disgruntled employees" (labor activists) as potential domestic enemies (See Emergency Preparedness Against the "Universal Adversary" by Michel Chossudovsky).

    The destruction of the Middle Class:
    Unchecked immigration, illegal immigrants competing for jobs and entitlement.
    New guest worker programs bringing in more immigrants to compete with americans for hi-tech jobs.
    Excessive tax breaks for the rich.
    A mounting trade deficit that threatens to bankrupt the country, devalue the dollar and destroy the purchasing power of all Americans except the Mega- Wealthy.
    Unpaid war debt $100’s of bils.

    To answer your question, in Dubbya’s vision of the future a huge number of Americans will be jailed for imagined crimes and held without trail or charges.
    Those not in jail won’t have a job or enough money to buy bullets for all those guns you mentioned.
    Last edited by Phinnly Slash Buster; 01-22-2006 at 12:55 AM.

  10. #42
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    Re: Slouching Toward Kristallnacht

    Is it your contention that we do not have "domestic enemies"? That no one in this country is deserving of surveillance? This thread seems to be about vigilance and I would contend that being vigilant involves knowing who your enemies are. Investigating Americans for planning and executing criminal or terroristic crimes is one of the things our government is charged with. How effective they can be may be best demonstrated by the lack of further attacks on our soil.

    It is irresponsible and insulting to imply that we are "slouching" towards anything. Comparing us to pre-war Nazi Germany is just plain stupid and demonstrates an astounding lack of perspective. This country has a very healthy give and take between many different factions. The fact that the debates are sometimes as contentious as they are is simply evidence of the passion we have for issues that are important to us. The Germans were controlled through mis-information and nationalistic hysteria. We are armed and informed and not likely to be led down that road by successive administrations.
    Last edited by pwrone; 01-22-2006 at 01:59 AM.

  11. #43
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    Re: Slouching Toward Kristallnacht

    Quote Originally Posted by pwrone
    The Germans were controlled through mis-information and nationalistic hysteria.
    So are we!


    Quote Originally Posted by pwrone
    We are armed and informed and not likely to be led down that road by successive administrations.
    Maybe armed but misinformed.
    We have 'been led down that road" It's happened through many administrations. As it applies here from the Reagan White House to present.

  12. #44
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    Re: Slouching Toward Kristallnacht

    Quote Originally Posted by pwrone
    Is it your contention that we do not have "domestic enemies"? That no one in this country is deserving of surveillance? This thread seems to be about vigilance and I would contend that being vigilant involves knowing who your enemies are. Investigating Americans for planning and executing criminal or terroristic crimes is one of the things our government is charged with. How effective they can be may be best demonstrated by the lack of further attacks on our soil.

    It is irresponsible and insulting to imply that we are "slouching" towards anything. Comparing us to pre-war Nazi Germany is just plain stupid and demonstrates an astounding lack of perspective. This country has a very healthy give and take between many different factions. The fact that the debates are sometimes as contentious as they are is simply evidence of the passion we have for issues that are important to us. The Germans were controlled through mis-information and nationalistic hysteria. We are armed and informed and not likely to be led down that road by successive administrations.
    Hi Pwrone,

    You are a tireless, patriotic champion of the United States of America. For this country's way of life, and standard of living. For this country's freedoms, and the ability to realize the dream of America's promise. And for that, I respect you. ;)

    DeeDee1965

  13. #45
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    Re: Slouching Toward Kristallnacht

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulM
    Well DeeDee... I am really stumped now as to just where you think this thread should be going... I have to toss my hat into the ring with pwrone and worried on this one... I totally understand the necessity to question and challenge, as well as, remain aware. The 22 amendment issue is a good one... well worth publicizing... thanks. I plan on opposing it if what I learn on the issue supports your claims... 2 t e r m s in office is enough.

    IMO pwrone did not 'flame' you. I have to agree with him... (1.)many of the items you listed were simply local news items that happened to make the national news, but, they are just 'side-show' items... the kind of stuff that goes on all the time. As with 'worried'... an actual coup will not take place... we as a people are too heavily armed and I for one... pwrone and worried as well I'm sure... would staunchly oppose such a thing.

    From what I've read so far your topic and stance is just vague enough to allow for blank agreement only. You have enough vague statements in your original article to quell any possible dissent with your point of view... effectively becomming what you are trying to warn against.

    Don't think your point is wasted for it is not. Raised awareness is a good thing.

    Paul
    Hi Paul,

    (1.)"Sideshow" is the point. Using cable TV news channel time, newspaper columns, and magazine space, to hold the attention of a population. And while holding that attention, keeping the population, agonizing over/thinking about/lamenting/pondering/ wondering and speculating, about the latest big news story of the day. Also, it keeps people from talking about loss of real wages, crumbling healthcare system, an approaching burst of the real-estate bubble, the constant loss of manufacturing jobs, the decrease in privacy, freedom of movement, freedom of speech.

    From: 75%of American Workers Don't Have Decent Wages and Benefits.

    The report, "How Good is the Economy at Creating Good Jobs?" found that between 1979 and 2004 the share of American workers in good jobs remained unchanged at about 25 percent, despite strong economic growth over that period. (The report defines a "good job" as one that offers at least $16 per hour or $32,000 annually, employer-paid health insurance and a pension.) In the last quarter century, the U.S. workforce has become older, more experienced and better educated, but 75 percent of workers are still struggling in jobs that do not provide health insurance, a pension and solid middle-class wages.


    I wrote this, in answer to a list of question by Worried.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee1965
    So, the empty war of words and haggling about "facts" gets us nowhere. No matter what I say, how I explain my position, write out my thoughts, you will find a problem with them. You will see a flaw in my reasoning. You will question my loyalty, civic pride, sense of fair play, righteous indignation, etc., etc., etc.....
    Any examples I come up with, there will be room for doubt. Admittedly, I am not a political or social scientist, and I do not have the ability to enumerate information, in a clear, concise timeline manner. I qualified the post by saying, not all the examples can be seen as crisis's. So I am aware of the flaws in my post.

    Playing the point by point game, is what I tried to avoid. It bogs one down, and ignores the subtlety of the present situation. And yes, you might be right, my post leaves little room for debate. I was trying to show how manipulation of perception, and creating a Kafka-esque mood, can be used to work on a populous, in order to grab, and maintain power. I was hoping to read if others were aware of the same phenomenon, and if not aware, willing to have an exchange of information, perceptions and ideas.

    DeeDee1965

  14. #46
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    Re: Slouching Toward Kristallnacht

    Quote Originally Posted by Worried_in_the_USA
    If BushCo can not control Iraq, how could they ever control us?
    "If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator."
    -- George W. Bush, December 18, 2000



    National Security Agency
    the central nervous system for the empire
    systematic surveillance did not start under Bush II, and Hillary Clinton is not going to stop it

    http://www.oilempire.us/nsa.html

    "The king hath note of all that they intend. By interception which they dream not of."
    -- Henry V (Shakespeare)

    "that [surveillance] capability at any time could be turned around on the American people and no American would have any privacy left, such [is] the capability to monitor everything: telephone conversations, telegrams, it doesn't matter. There would be no place to hide. If this government ever became a tyranny, if a dictator ever took charge in this country, the technological capacity that the intelligence community has given the government could enable it to impose total tyranny, and there would be no way to fight back, because the most careful effort to combine together in resistance to the government, no matter how privately it was done, is within the reach of the government to know. Such is the capability of this technology ...
    "I don't want to see this country ever go across the bridge. I know the capacity that is there to make tyranny total in America, and we must see to it that this agency [NSA] and all agencies that possess this technology operate within the law and under proper supervision, so that we never cross over that abyss. That is the abyss from which there is no return." -- Senator Frank Church (D-Idaho), 1975
    Last edited by Phinnly Slash Buster; 01-22-2006 at 09:09 PM.

  15. #47
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    Re: Slouching Toward Kristallnacht

    Quote Originally Posted by Worried_in_the_USA
    If BushCo can not control Iraq, how could they ever control us?
    “The major function of secrecy in Washington is to keep the U.S. people and U.S. Congress from knowing what the nation's leaders are doing. Secrecy is power. Secrecy is license. Secrecy covers up mistakes. Secrecy covers up corruption.”
    -Col. John Stockwell U.S.M.C


    RED ALERT

    FEMA camps, martial law and indefinite detention without trial



    "The President has the power to seize property, organize and control the means of production, seize commodities, assign military forces abroad, call reserve forces amounting to 2 1/2 million men to duty, institute martial law, seize and control all menas of transportation, regulate all private enterprise, restrict travel, and in a plethora of particular ways, control the lives of all Americans...
    "Most [of these laws] remain a a potential source of virtually unlimited power for a President should he choose to activate them. It is possible that some future President could exercise this vast authority in an attempt to place the United States under authoritarian rule.
    "While the danger of a dictatorship arising through legal means may seem remote to us today, recent history records Hitler seizing control through the use of the emergency powers provisions contained in the laws of the Weimar Republic."
    -- Joint Statement, Sens. Frank Church (D-ID) and Charles McMathias (R-MD) September 30, 1973 http://www.politechbot.com/p-00106.html


    Secret Police Concentration Camps http://www.hermes-press.com/gonzalez5.htm
    In a revealing admission in June, 1997, the Director of Resource Management for the U.S. Army confirmed the validity of a memorandum relating to the establishment of a civilian inmate labor program under development by the Department of the Army. The document states, "Enclosed for your review and comment is the draft Army regulation on civilian inmate labor utilization" and the procedure to "establish civilian prison camps on installations."
    Amid widespread rumors, Congressman Henry Gonzales clarified the question of the existence of civilian detention camps. In an interview, Gonzalez stated, "The truth is yes -- you do have these stand by provisions, and the plans are here...whereby you could, in the name of stopping terrorism...evoke the military and arrest Americans and put them in detention camps."


    Red alert? Stay home, await word
    Sunday, March 16, 2003
    By TOM BALDWIN
    Gannett State Bureau TRENTON

    If the nation escalates to "red alert," which is the highest in the color-coded readiness against terror, you will be assumed by authorities to be the enemy if you so much as venture outside your home, the state's anti-terror czar says.
    "This state is on top of it," said Sid Caspersen, New Jersey's director of the office of counter-terrorism.
    Caspersen, a former FBI agent, was briefing reporters, alongside Gov. James E. McGreevey, on Thursday, when for the first time he disclosed the realities of how a red alert would shut the state down.
    A red alert would also tear away virtually all personal freedoms to move about and associate.
    "Red means all noncritical functions cease," Caspersen said. "Noncritical would be almost all businesses, except health-related."
    A red alert means there is a severe risk of terrorist attack, according to federal guidelines from the Department of Homeland Security.
    "The state will restrict transportation and access to critical locations," says the state's new brochure on dealing with terrorism.
    "You must adhere to the restrictions announced by authorities and prepare to evacuate, if instructed. Stay alert for emergency messages."
    Caspersen went further than the brochure. "The government agencies would run at a very low threshold," he said.
    "The state police and the emergency management people would take control over the highways.
    "You literally are staying home, is what happens, unless you are required to be out. No different than if you had a state of emergency with a snowstorm."

  16. #48
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    Re: Slouching Toward Kristallnacht

    Bush has taken more than one page from Adolph’s playbook

    The Reichstag Fire and 9/11
    Pretexts for Dictatorship and the Fourth Reich

    Hermann Goering, Hitler's deputy:

    "Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."

    http://www.oilempire.us/reichstag-fire.html
    Last edited by Phinnly Slash Buster; 01-22-2006 at 11:15 PM.

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