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  1. #1
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    SPYING on Americans is GREAT.....if it is a democrat doing it

    Under Clinton, NY Times called surveillance "a necessity"
    January 12th, 2006



    The controversy following revelations that U.S. intelligence agencies have monitored suspected terrorist related communications since 9/11 reflects a severe case of selective amnesia by the New York Times and other media opponents of President Bush. They certainly didn’t show the same outrage when a much more invasive and indiscriminate domestic surveillance program came to light during the Clinton administration in the 1990’s. At that time, the Times called the surveillance “a necessity.”

    “If you made a phone call today or sent an e-mail to a friend, there’s a good chance what you said or wrote was captured and screened by the country’s largest intelligence agency.” (Steve Kroft, CBS’ 60 Minutes)

    Those words were aired on February 27, 2000 to describe the National Security Agency and an electronic surveillance program called Echelon whose mission, according to Kroft,

    “is to eavesdrop on enemies of the state: foreign countries, terrorist groups and drug cartels. But in the process, Echelon’s computers capture virtually every electronic conversation around the world.”

    Echelon was, or is (its existence has been under-reported in the American media), an electronic eavesdropping program conducted by the United States and a few select allies such as the United Kingdom.

    Tellingly, the existence of the program was confirmed not by the New York Times or the Washington Post or by any other American media outlet – these were the Clinton years, after all, and the American media generally treats Democrat administrations far more gently than Republican administrations – but by an Australian government official in a statement made to an Australian television news show.

    The Times actually defended the existence of Echelon when it reported on the program following the Australians’ revelations.

    “Few dispute the necessity of a system like Echelon to apprehend foreign spies, drug traffickers and terrorists….”

    And the Times article quoted an N.S.A. official in assuring readers

    “...that all Agency activities are conducted in accordance with the highest constitutional, legal and ethical standards.”

    Of course, that was on May 27, 1999 and Bill Clinton, not George W. Bush, was president.

    Even so, the article did admit that

    “...many are concerned that the system could be abused to collect economic and political information.”

    Despite the Times’ reluctance to emphasize those concerns, one of the sources used in that same article, Patrick Poole, a lecturer in government and economics at Bannock Burn College in Franklin, Tenn., had already concluded in a study cited by the Times story that the program had been abused in both ways.

    “ECHELON is also being used for purposes well outside its original mission. The regular discovery of domestic surveillance targeted at American civilians for reasons of ‘unpopular’ political affiliation or for no probable cause at all… What was once designed to target a select list of communist countries and terrorist states is now indiscriminately directed against virtually every citizen in the world,” Poole concluded.

    The Times article also referenced a European Union report on Echelon. The report was conducted after E.U. members became concerned that their citizens’ rights may have been violated. One of the revelations of that study was that the N.S.A. used partner countries’ intelligence agencies to routinely circumvent legal restrictions against domestic spying.

    “For example, [author Nicky] Hager has described how New Zealand officials were instructed to remove the names of identifiable UKUSA citizens or companies from their reports, inserting instead words such as ‘a Canadian citizen’ or ‘a US company’. British Comint [Communications intelligence] staff have described following similar procedures in respect of US citizens following the introduction of legislation to limit NSA’s domestic intelligence activities in 1978.”

    Further, the E.U. report concluded that intelligence agencies did not feel particularly constrained by legal restrictions requiring search warrants.

    “Comint agencies conduct broad international communications ‘trawling’ activities, and operate under general warrants. Such operations do not require or even suppose that the parties they intercept are criminals.”

    The current controversy follows a Times report that, since 9/11, U.S. intelligence agencies are eavesdropping at any time on up to 500 people in the U.S. suspected of conducting international communications with terrorists. Under Echelon, the Clinton administration was spying on just about everyone.

    “The US National Security Agency (NSA) has created a global spy system, codename ECHELON, which captures and analyzes virtually every phone call, fax, email and telex message sent anywhere in the world,”

    Poole summarized in his study on the program.

    According to an April, 2000 article in PC World magazine, experts who studied Echelon concluded that

    “Project Echelon’s equipment can process 1 million message inputs every 30 minutes.”

    In the February, 2000 60 Minutes story, former spy Mike Frost made clear that Echelon monitored practically every conversation – no matter how seemingly innocent – during the Clinton years.

    “A lady had been to a school play the night before, and her son was in the school play and she thought he did a-a lousy job. Next morning, she was talking on the telephone to her friend, and she said to her friend something like this, ‘Oh, Danny really bombed last night,’ just like that. The computer spit that conversation out. The analyst that was looking at it was not too sure about what the conversation w-was referring to, so erring on the side of caution, he listed that lady and her phone number in the database as a possible terrorist.”

    “This is not urban legend you’re talking about. This actually happened?” Kroft asked.

    “Factual. Absolutely fact. No legend here.”

    Even as the Times defended Echelon as “a necessity” in 1999, evidence already existed that electronic surveillance had previously been misused by the Clinton Administration for political purposes. Intelligence officials told Insight Magazine in 1997 that a 1993 conference of Asian and Pacific world leaders hosted by Clinton in Seattle had been spied on by U.S. intelligence agencies. Further, the magazine reported that information obtained by the spying had been passed on to big Democrat corporate donors to use against their competitors. The Insight story added that the mis-use of the surveillance for political reasons caused the intelligence sources to reveal the operation.

    “The only reason it has come to light is because of concerns raised by high-level sources within federal law-enforcement and intelligence circles that the operation was compromised by politicians—includingmid- and senior-level White House aides—either on behalf of or in support of President Clinton and major donor-friends who helped him and the Democratic National Committee, or DNC, raise money.”

    So, during the Clinton Administration, evidence existed (all of the information used in this article was available at the time) that:

    -an invasive, extensive domestic eavesdropping program was aimed at every U.S. citizen;

    -intelligence agencies were using allies to circumvent constitutional restrictions;

    -and the administration was selling at least some secret intelligence for political donations.

    These revelations were met by the New York Times and others in the mainstream media by the sound of one hand clapping. Now, reports that the Bush Administration approved electronic eavesdropping, strictly limited to international communications, of a relative handful of suspected terrorists have created a media frenzy in the Times and elsewhere.

    The Times has historically been referred to as “the Grey Lady.” That grey is beginning to look just plain grimy, and many of us can no longer consider her a lady.

    William Tate is a writer and researcher and former broadcast journalist. He lives in Santa Fe, New Mexico.




    William Tate

  2. #2
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    Re: SPYING on Americans is GREAT.....if it is a democrat doing it

    This is the first I've ever heard of this pwrone. From your post, I conclude that you believe that Clinton was wrong for using Eschelon. From my research, I found that Eschelon dates back to 1971 and is still being used by the Bush administration. It's does my heart good to see that you have taken a position that agrees with that taken by the ACLU.

    Q - What is Project ECHELON?

    ECHELON is the term popularly used for an automated global interception and relay system operated by the intelligence agencies in five nations: the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia and New Zealand (it is believed that ECHELON is the code name for the portion of the system that intercepts satellite-based communications). While the United States National Security Agency (NSA) takes the lead, ECHELON works in conjunction with other intelligence agencies, including the Australian Defence Signals Directorate (DSD). It is believed that ECHELON also works with Britain's Government Communications Headquarters (GCHQ) and the agencies of other allies of the United States, pursuant to various treaties. (1)

    These countries coordinate their activities pursuant to the UKUSA agreement, which dates back to 1947. The original ECHELON dates back to 1971. However, its capabilities and priorities have expanded greatly since its formation. According to reports, it is capable of intercepting and processing many types of transmissions, throughout the globe. In fact, it has been suggested that ECHELON may intercept as many as 3 billion communications everyday, including phone calls, e-mail messages, Internet downloads, satellite transmissions, and so on. (2) The ECHELON system gathers all of these transmissions indiscriminately, then distills the information that is most heavily desired through artificial intelligence programs. Some sources have claimed that ECHELON sifts through an estimated 90 percent of all traffic that flows through the Internet. (3)

    However, the exact capabilities and goals of ECHELON remain unclear. For example, it is unknown whether ECHELON actually targets domestic communications. Also, it is apparently very difficult for ECHELON to intercept certain types of transmissions, particularly fiber communications.
    http://www.nsawatch.org/echelonfaq.html
    Last edited by bairdi; 01-13-2006 at 06:04 AM.

  3. #3
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    Re: SPYING on Americans is GREAT.....if it is a democrat doing it

    Quote Originally Posted by bairdi
    This is the first I've ever heard of this pwrone. From your post, I conclude that you believe that Clinton was wrong for using Eschelon. From my research, I found that Eschelon dates back to 1971 and is still being used by the Bush administration. It's does my heart good to see that you have taken a position that agrees with that taken by the ACLU.
    I think that his point flew over your head at light speed there Bacardi. Exposing the political bias of the left's favorite "biblical" newssource - The NYTimes is often done to help enlighten those of you whom live inside of little tiny boxes and take your marching orders directly from the Op-Ed pages of the foresaid rag. I don't speak for Pwrone, he does a damn good job of doing that for himself. I'm certain that he was exposing the NYT for what they are, a PoliticalActionCommitee for the DNC.

  4. #4
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    Re: SPYING on Americans is GREAT.....if it is a democrat doing it

    Report on a
    James Bamford Talk at Berkeley

    http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/bamfordreport.html

    James Bamford is the author of The Puzzle Palace and Body of Secrets, books about the National Security Agency.
    He was introduced by the Dean of the School, who explained that the school has a new emphasis on information technology and public policy. The Dean explained that while it is generally true that "Those who know don’t speak, and those who speak don’t know," James Bamford is the exception. The Dean said that Bamford was working on a new book A Killing Sleep: Anatomy of America’s Greatest Intelligence Failure, a description of what happened prior to Sept. 11.

    I read the The Puzzle Palace some time ago. pwrone you mighy be on to something every administration dem or rep kisses up to the NSA. THIS IS A REAL PROBLEM.

  5. #5
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    Re: SPYING on Americans is GREAT.....if it is a democrat doing it

    Well, one thing is for sure. Nobody can say the Bush Regime doesn't listen to ordinary Americans.

  6. #6
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    Re: SPYING on Americans is GREAT.....if it is a democrat doing it

    Quote Originally Posted by bairdi
    This is the first I've ever heard of this pwrone. From your post, I conclude that you believe that Clinton was wrong for using Eschelon. From my research, I found that Eschelon dates back to 1971 and is still being used by the Bush administration. It's does my heart good to see that you have taken a position that agrees with that taken by the ACLU.

    I, of course, support any effort by our leaders to find, prosecute, or kill our enemies. As Raider observed, I was merely pointing out another example of the obscene level of bias against the right by the nyt.

  7. #7
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    Re: SPYING on Americans is GREAT.....if it is a democrat doing it

    Echelon has been known about for years. To say Clinton was responsible for the program, as the article title suggests, is absurd.

    The capabilities of Echelon are frightening. However, by law, the NSA cannot collect information on American citizens. Contrary to the suggestion of the headline, Clinton never (as far as we know) ordered the NSA to violate that principle and spy on Americans.

    The corollary, of course, is that to describe this as "liberal" "bias" is ridiculous. The only bias is in trying to make the comparison, which simply doesn't exist.

  8. #8
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    Re: SPYING on Americans is GREAT.....if it is a democrat doing it

    Did anybody bother to check the context of the quotes in the actual articles in NYT that are "cited"?

  9. #9
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    Re: SPYING on Americans is GREAT.....if it is a democrat doing it

    Just an unrelated 2 bits, but the whole 'spying on Americans' thing is kind of ridiculous. If your information is important enough that you don't want people evesdropping, then encrypt it. Then the only recourse is something ridiculous like a TEMPEST attack. Echelon is next to useless, because terrorists most likely use strong crypto (strong as in cryptographically indecipherable, not as in 'good').

  10. #10
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    Re: SPYING on Americans is GREAT.....if it is a democrat doing it

    It was shown this morning on "Good Morning America" that all that is required is a $20 cell phone with prepaid minutes purchased with cash. These phones are for sale at my local “Dollar General” store. Some suspected terrorists were caught buying 150 of these at a Wal-Mart in the Southwest. The story said these are also the phones of choice for Drug Dealers.

    I always wondered when they said the call was made with an untraceable cell phone, how was this done. Now I know.

    Just confirms the old saying "When Guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have Guns." How much money has been spent on these surveillance programs that can be gotten around with a $20 cell phone. I wish they would give me just $69,000.00 of this wasted money so I could pay off my mortgage. :rolleyes:

    And yes I edit most of my posts, but only because I think of more crap to say or miss spell words. I am not Mr. D. :p
    Last edited by Worried_in_the_USA; 01-13-2006 at 03:08 PM.

  11. #11
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    Re: SPYING on Americans is GREAT.....if it is a democrat doing it

    Well, my question would be, if we already had a spy program in place, WHY did the president feel the need to create new ones? Apparently one was already doing a crappy job, the other two haven't been proven to be doing any better.

    And why would a neocon really think that Americans, once shown that a spy program existed before and during the Clinton administration would be any more willing to let it continue to spy on them any more than they are willing to continue to allow NSA or FISA to spy on them OR that we would ever believe that the right would show outrage at being spied on at all?

    It's not a liberal issue, it's an American outrage.

    Lady Mod

  12. #12
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    Re: SPYING on Americans is GREAT.....if it is a democrat doing it

    Quote Originally Posted by tkonp
    Just an unrelated 2 bits, but the whole 'spying on Americans' thing is kind of ridiculous. If your information is important enough that you don't want people evesdropping, then encrypt it. Then the only recourse is something ridiculous like a TEMPEST attack. Echelon is next to useless, because terrorists most likely use strong crypto (strong as in cryptographically indecipherable, not as in 'good').
    Thursday, January 12, 2006

    AMERICAblog just bought General Wesley Clark's cell phone records for $89.95

    by John in DC - 1/12/2006 01:57:00 PM

    I reported the other day that your cell phone records are on sale online for anyone to buy, without your permission. Well, this morning AMERICAblog bought former presidential candidate, and former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO (SACEUR), General Wesley Clark's cell phone records for one hundred calls made over three days in November 2005, no questions asked. (Clark's cell phone provider is Omnipoint Communications, which seems to be related to T-Mobile.)

    All we needed was General Clark's cell phone number and our credit card, and 24 hours later we had one hundred calls the general made on his cell phone in November. The calls included a number of calls to Arkansas, to foreign countries, and at least one call to a prominent reporter at the Washington Post. To ensure that we actually had General Clark's correct cell phone number, we called the number this morning and the voice mail recording that answered said:

    "Hi, this is Wes Clark, leave a message [unintelligible]."

    We have subsequently called that number and spoken to a real person to confirm its authenticity, and to make sure General Clark was aware of this issue and what we were doing.

    This is clearly outrageous. But let me first say, as an aside, that I bought my own Cingular Wireless phone records this past weekend and reported on it on AMERICAblog. I wouldn't do this to any other public person without first doing it to myself. But even after reporting on this gross violation of my (and your) personal privacy, Congress, the Administration, and the phone companies have yet to act effectively. (And they have known about it since at least this past July when the Washington Post reported on it.) So we decided to attempt to buy the records of a celebrity, so to speak. And we unfortunately succeeded.

    I also want to say a quick aside about General Clark. I was a big fan of his presidential campaign, and he was the first candidate I supported. This effort was not meant in any way as a slight to the general. We wanted to see if it was possible to buy the phone records of someone high profile in order to prove that this is a problem with serious national security implications, and frankly, we didn't want to pick a Republican since we thought such a choice would be perceived as partisan or mean-spirited, and that is not our intent for exposing this. Our intent is to get this problem fixed so that we all can benefit.

    I bought my records via the Web site LocateCell for $110. We bought General Clark's records via the Web site CellTolls for $89.95. It is possible that both sites are run by the same company.

    Interestingly, we tried to get the cell phone records of other high-profile Washingtonians like ABC's George Stephanopoulos, the Washington Post's Dana Milbank, and the New York Time's Adam Nagourney, but LocateCell was unable to provide me with their records (possibly because those three use Verizon as their cell phone service, or possibly because LocateCell was on to me). We are in the process of trying to obtain additional records.

    The following is the list we received from CellTolls detailing 100 consecutive phone calls either placed or received on General Clark's cell phone from November 15 to 18, 2005. The company only gives you 100 calls, then you have to pay more for additional calls. We have blacked out all but the last two digits of every phone number, including General Clark's cell phone number, in order to protect his privacy and the privacy of anyone he has been in contact with. This will permit General Clark, and at least one Washington Post reporter, to confirm that the record is legit.

    The only question now remaining is why President Bush, our leaders in Congress, and our wireless phone companies (at the very least T-Mobile and Cingular, whose customers' records are available online to anyone) have known about this problem for at least six months but have yet to fix it.

    PS CBS News is going to report on the cell records privacy scandal tonight (1/12/06) on their evening news broadcast.
    http://americablog.blogspot.com/2006...al-wesley.html

  13. #13
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    Re: SPYING on Americans is GREAT.....if it is a democrat doing it

    Quote Originally Posted by Worried_in_the_USA
    It was shown this morning on "Good Morning America" that all that is required is a $20 cell phone with prepaid minutes purchased with cash. These phones are for sale at my local “Dollar General” store. Some suspected terrorists were caught buying 150 of these at a Wal-Mart in the Southwest. The story said these are also the phones of choice for Drug Dealers.

    I always wondered when they said the call was made with an untraceable cell phone, how was this done. Now I know.

    Just confirms the old saying "When Guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have Guns." How much money has been spent on these surveillance programs that can be gotten around with a $20 cell phone. I wish they would give me just $69,000.00 of this wasted money so I could pay off my mortgage. :rolleyes:

    And only the law abiding citizens have their liberties restricted.

    LM

  14. #14
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    Re: SPYING on Americans is GREAT.....if it is a democrat doing it

    Quote Originally Posted by ianmatthews
    Did anybody bother to check the context of the quotes in the actual articles in NYT that are "cited"?
    After reading the first few paragraphs, such an extensive investigation hardly seems necessary. We can be certain of what the context was NOT, and that seems to be the important thing.

    We can be certain that the NYT was NOT in any way, shape, or form commenting that the Clinton government spying on Americans is "good", contrary to what the title of the above article suggests.

  15. #15
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    Re: SPYING on Americans is GREAT.....if it is a democrat doing it

    Quote Originally Posted by dante
    Well, one thing is for sure. Nobody can say the Bush Regime doesn't listen to ordinary Americans.
    :D That's a good one.

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    Re: SPYING on Americans is GREAT.....if it is a democrat doing it

    Quote Originally Posted by tkonp
    Just an unrelated 2 bits, but the whole 'spying on Americans' thing is kind of ridiculous. If your information is important enough that you don't want people evesdropping, then encrypt it. Then the only recourse is something ridiculous like a TEMPEST attack. Echelon is next to useless, because terrorists most likely use strong crypto (strong as in cryptographically indecipherable, not as in 'good').
    Great idea! How do you encrypt your cell phone calls?

    :confused:

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