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  1. #1
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    17 + More U.S Troops Die For Halliburton

    U.S. helicopter crash kills 12 in Iraq
    Five U.S. Marines also slain over weekend, military says

    Sunday, January 8, 2006; Posted: 11:26 a.m. EST (16:26 GMT)

    BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) -- Twelve Americans were killed when a UH-60 Black Hawk helicopter crashed in Iraq early Sunday, the military said.

    The helicopter, which was carrying a crew of four and eight passengers, was flying along with another aircraft between bases in the north of the country, according to news releases from the U.S. military.

    Rescuers searched for about 12 hours, finding the crash site about noon (4 a.m. ET), some 7.5 miles (12 kilometers) east of Tal Afar. A military release described the area as sparsely populated.

    The military didn't say whether any of the 12 dead were civilians.

    Tal Afar is just miles from the Syrian border and has been a hotbed of insurgent activity and raids by Iraqi and coalition forces.

    According to The Associated Press, 23 helicopters have crashed in Iraq since the March 2003 U.S.-led invasion. Last January, a transport helicopter crashed in bad weather, killing 31 U.S. troops in the deadliest such incident.

    The military also announced the deaths of five U.S. Marines in three different Iraqi towns Saturday and Sunday.

    Insurgents in Falluja killed three Marines during separate gunbattles Sunday. Falluja is about 35 miles (56 kilometers) west of Baghdad in restive Anbar province.

    On Saturday, roadside bombs killed two Marines, one near al-Karma and another near Ferris. Both towns are near Falluja.

    Since the war began, 2,198 U.S. service members serving in Iraq have died. That total does not include victims of the Black Hawk crash.
    Suicide bomb wounds 13

    At least 13 people, including six Iraqi police commandos, were wounded when a suicide car bomb exploded Saturday as a police commando patrol was passing by, police said.

    The bomb went off in southeast Baghdad's al-Jadida neighborhood, authorities said, about 10:15 a.m. ( 2:15 a.m. ET).

    On Friday, military officials revealed that 11 U.S. troops -- eight soldiers and three Marines -- were among about 140 people killed in attacks across Iraq on Thursday, the deadliest day in Iraq in nearly four months.

    A U.S. soldier and a U.S. Marine were killed in a suicide bombing that targeted an Iraqi police recruitment center in Ramadi, the military said Friday. Both were assigned to 2nd Marine Division, II Marine Expeditionary Force.

    (continued here)
    http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/01/08/iraq.main/
    Last edited by dante; 01-08-2006 at 08:03 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: 17 More U.S Troops Die For Halliburton

    dchristie you are a sad individual.

    This War is not so Halliburton can make money. Do you run a company that lost a contract to Halliburton or something? Did they fire you from your janitors job?

  3. #3
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    Re: 17 More U.S Troops Die For Halliburton

    What is this war for, Reg?

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    Re: 17 More U.S Troops Die For Halliburton

    Quote Originally Posted by Yirmeyahu
    What is this war for, Reg?
    I suspect this will meet with your disapproval but here five reasons

    Remove Saddam's ability to manufacture/use WMD
    Find and dispose of Iraq's WMD (so we didn't find any)
    Eliminate another place for Terrorists to train and find safe habor (not working exactly as planned)
    Remove Saddam from Power
    Give Iraq back to the Iraqi's (we call it democracy right or wrong)

    Halliburton has been around since 1919. Whether we like it or not, they are positioned to do the jobs that are required in the post war rebuilding. It was Halliburton that put out over 300 of the oil well fires started by Saddam during the Gulf War. It was Halliburton that devised the makeshift carbon dioxide removal system that helped rescue the Apollo 13 astronauts. Halliburton has positioned itself over the years to be able to respond with their services anywhere in the world quickly.

    Many of the exteremists want to believe that Halliburton is the reason this country has gone to war in Iraq. While it is an interesting conspiracy theory, there are no facts to back up this claim that I am aware of at this time.

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    Re: 17 More U.S Troops Die For Halliburton

    Quote Originally Posted by RegulationE
    dchristie you are a sad individual.

    This War is not so Halliburton can make money. Do you run a company that lost a contract to Halliburton or something? Did they fire you from your janitors job?
    Regulation E..You are seriously misinformed about what's afoot in The World and what's being done in your name around that world.. If you don't have enough class to be embarrased about it and educate yourself, kindly stop wasting the adult's time and go back to your comic books. You're not funny, just pathetic.

    INVESTIGATIONS

    # Nigeria bribery probe: The U.S. Department of Justice is conducting a criminal investigation into an alleged $180 million bribe paid by Halliburton and three other companies to the government of Nigeria. The alleged bribe was paid in exchange for awarding a contract to the companies to build a $4 billion natural gas plant in Nigeria's southern delta region. The bribes were paid during the time when Dick Cheney was CEO of Halliburton. The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission opened its own formal investigation on June 11, 2004.

    # Nigeria bribery probe: The French government is conducting an investigation of the same Nigeria bribery allegations as the U.S. Justice Department. France is also investigating a former Halliburton executive for his role in the scheme. Investigators said $5 million of the bribes intended for Nigeria was deposited into the Swiss bank account of former KBR chairman, Jack Stanley, who retired from the company on December 31, 2003.

    # The U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission is investigating a second bribery case involving Nigeria. Halliburton admitted that its employees paid a $2.4 million bribe to a government official of Nigeria for the purpose of receiving favorable tax treatment.

    # The U.S. Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) is investigating allegations that the Army Corp of Engineers illegally favored Halliburton for contracts by excluding competitors from bidding on war-related work. In particular, the FBI is investigating the Army's $7 billion firefighting contract for Iraqi oil wells, which was awarded to Halliburton without competition in March of 2003. An Army whistleblower told the FBI that the line between government officials and Halliburton had become so blurred that a perception of conflict of interest existed. The conduct appears to have violated specific regulations and calls into question the independence of the contracting process.

    # The Pentagon admitted that a $7 billion no-bid contract to extinguish oil fires in Iraq was awarded to Halliburton after a "political appointee" from the Bush administration recommended the company for the job. Government policy forbids politicians or their appointees from taking a role in awarding contracts to private corporations. But Vice President Cheney ignored this basic principle when his political appointees were directly involved in awarding a $7 billion contract to Halliburton to rebuild Iraq's oil infrastructure.

    # The U.S. Treasury Department's Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC) is investigating the legality of Halliburton's business dealings in Iran, an enemy of the United States. Halliburton sells goods and services to Iranian companies through its Cayman Islands subsidiary. The sales appear to have violated the U.S. trade embargo against trading with Iran. The OFAC referred the case to the Department of Justice, which is conducting a criminal investigation.

    # The Criminal Division of the U.S. Department of Justice issued a subpoena to a former employee of Halliburton's KBR unit to determine whether the company criminally overcharged for gasoline imported into Iraq. KBR, along with its Kuwaiti subcontractor Altanmia Commercial Marketing Co., allegedly overcharged the government by $61 million, but Democrats in Congress say the overcharges were closer to $167 million. KBR charged the government $2.64 per gallon of gasoline while competitors were importing gasoline for less than half that price.

    # Four former employees of Halliburton filed a class action lawsuit against their former employer, alleging the company engaged in "systemic" accounting fraud from 1998 to 2001. The former employees say Halliburton overbilled for services, overstated the amounts it was owed by customers and understated amounts it owed to vendors. A former employee in the accounting department said supervisors had told her to do "whatever it took" to make profit statements appear more profitable than was actually the case.

    # The U.S. Department of Defense is investigating Halliburton's billing system, which it calls "inadequate." Pentagon accountants said they are uncertain as to why Halliburton's KBR unit billed the government for $1.8 billion in work that was apparently never undertaken or completed. The $1.8 billion represents 43 percent of Halliburton's expenditures in the Middle East.

    # Congressional auditors issued a report that criticized Halliburton for a variety of abuses associated with its troop support and military logistics (LOGCAP) contract. It also criticized the Pentagon for “a pattern of contractor management problems,” including ineffective planning, a poor materials requisition system and inadequate supervision of subcontractors.

    # The Pentagon's Defense Contract Audit Agency (DCAA) completed a comprehensive review of Halliburton's system for billing the government for meals served to the troops in the Middle East. The DCAA said Halliburton billed the government for 36 percent more meals than was actually served to the troops while an internal KBR report said it had overcharged by 19 percent. In May 2004, the DCAA recommended that the Pentagon refuse to pay Halliburton for the overcharges.

    # An investigation by the inspector general of the now-disbanded U.S. Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) found that Halliburton lost $18.6 million worth of government property in Iraq because of mismanagement. About a third of the government items under Halliburton management in Iraq, including trucks, computers and office furniture have disappeared.

    # The U.S. Justice Department is investigating Halliburton for possible over billing on government services work done in the Balkans from 1996 through 2000. The charges stem from a General Accounting Office report that found in 1997 that Halliburton billed the Army for questionable expenses for work in the Balkans, including charges of $85.98 per sheet of plywood that cost $14.06. A follow-up report by the GAO in 2000 found inflated costs, including charges for cleaning some offices up to four times a day.

    # The Army awarded Halliburton a no-bid contract in March 2003 despite a secret Pentagon report which found the company had "significant deficiencies" that could lead to defrauding the government. The Pentagon's report was given to Hearst News Service under the Freedom of Information Act over Halliburton's objections.

    # The Department of Defense repeatedly warned Halliburton's subsidiary, KBR, that its food and the kitchens where it is prepared are "dirty," NBC News reported. A Pentagon report found that KBR's promises to clean up its food and kitchens "have not been followed through."

    # The Kuwaiti government has delayed completion of a report on its investigation of the $61 million gasoline overcharge by KBR and its subcontractor, Altanmia. The U.S. embassy in Kuwait publicly stated it will not cooperate with the Kuwaiti government's investigation. Kuwait said its investigation is delayed because the U.S. Army refuses to testify.

    # The inspector general for the U.S. Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) found that the United States failed to adequately control over $9 billion in international aid, including Halliburton's hotel costs in Kuwait. Halliburton charged the government $2.85 million for hotel costs, even though cheaper housing arrangements were available. For example, one CPA official lived at the Kuwaiti Hilton for almost $700 a night. The inspector general also criticized Halliburton for charging $191,000 a year for laundry services.

    # The auditing arm of Congress issued a report confirming that the Pentagon had violated procurement law by issuing a "task order" to Halliburton to develop plans for extinguishing oil well fires in Iraq. The report, issued by the General Accounting Office (GAO), said the task order violated the law because it was issued under Halliburton's LOGCAP contract, which is not authorized to handle oil fires. LOGCAP is a logistics contract that requires Halliburton to feed the troops, deliver supplies in a war zone and construct military buildings. But there is no authority under LOGCAP to deal with oil well fires. The GAO said Bush administration officials “overstepped the latitude provided by competition laws” when they misused the LOGCAP contract to assign the planning job to Halliburton.

    # Halliburton settled an investigation by the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) which accused the firm of providing "materially misleading" information to investors during the period when Vice President Dick Cheney was the chief executive officer. The SEC said it settled the case after Halliburton agreed to pay a $7.5 million fine and to stop "committing or causing future securities law violations."

    # The International Advisory and Monitoring Board (IAMB), a watchdog established by the United Nations, is investigating the management of Iraqi finances by the now-disbanded U.S. Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA). The IAMB complained that the CPA refuses to release documents on contracts awarded to private firms, including Halliburton. The Bush administration refused numerous IAMB requests for U.S. government reports about the payment of approximately $1.5 billion in Iraqi funds to Halliburton, which is the single largest private recipient of Iraqi oil proceeds.
    Last edited by dante; 01-09-2006 at 08:27 AM.

  6. #6
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    Re: 17 More U.S Troops Die For Halliburton

    Dante...

    While these are all great points about the shady dealings that take place within Halliburton and various Governments, they do not do a thing to prove the allegation that the US went to war so Halliburton could make some money.

    The first three points reference bribes paid to the Nigerian Government. While it may not be "right" it is the way business gets done (or awarded) in many countries, probably even this one, when dealing with government contracts.

    Points 4 and 5 definitely scream of corruption within the US government and Halliburton. They still do not offer any indication claims the war was started for Halliburton even begin to hold merit.

    The remaining points all continue to show there are problems with Halliburton and the why they manage money, assests, and contracts. They provide very good grounds for indictments to be handed down against the leaders of the company and anyone else involved. They still do not provide support that the War in Iraq or any other military conflict was initiated so that Halliburton would reap the rewards.

    Check out the tabloids you most certianly enjoy reading, maybe you will find something to substantiate the claims the war is for Halliburton.

  7. #7
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    Re: 17 More U.S Troops Die For Halliburton

    Quote Originally Posted by RegulationE
    Dante...

    While these are all great points about the shady dealings that take place within Halliburton and various Governments, they do not do a thing to prove the allegation that the US went to war so Halliburton could make some money.

    The first three points reference bribes paid to the Nigerian Government. While it may not be "right" it is the way business gets done (or awarded) in many countries, probably even this one, when dealing with government contracts.

    Points 4 and 5 definitely scream of corruption within the US government and Halliburton. They still do not offer any indication claims the war was started for Halliburton even begin to hold merit.

    The remaining points all continue to show there are problems with Halliburton and the why they manage money, assests, and contracts. They provide very good grounds for indictments to be handed down against the leaders of the company and anyone else involved. They still do not provide support that the War in Iraq or any other military conflict was initiated so that Halliburton would reap the rewards.

    Check out the tabloids you most certianly enjoy reading, maybe you will find something to substantiate the claims the war is for Halliburton.
    When you have no point to use in attacking your opponent, simply make up something fictitious they didn't say and attach a specious point to that. This tactic is a favorite of right-wing nuts.

    I never claimed that Bush started the war so Halliburton could make money, although, even that would probably make more sense than the actual core motivations for The Bush Regime's starting the bloody war which has been referred to by top military minds as the greatest strategic blunder in American history.

    Halliburton is certainly just one corrupt beneficiary of it all. There are a number of corrupt beneficiaries, not the least of which is Israel. I could have just as reasonably posted "17 More US Troops Die For Israel" and been on target with that as well.

    If car thieves steal cars, do they do it specifically for the benefit of Ford or GM since the owners of the stolen vehicles will have to buy more cars?

    Well, if John Gotti Jr. is the owner of the local Ford Dealership and he is engaging thugs to operate a local car theft ring, it can, therefore, be logically inferred that they are committing the crimes for the benefit of organized crime and to the benefit of Ford and GM, as well as others.

    Please see the information provided by that scurrilous left wing rag from which I furtively cull my leftist propaganda- "The Congressional Record"

    An analysis released by a Democratic senator found that Vice President Dick Cheney's Halliburton stock options have risen 3,281 percent in the last year. Cheney continues to received a deferred salary from the company. According to financial disclosure forms, he was paid $205,298 in 2001; $162,392 in 2002; $178,437 in 2003; and $194,852 in 2004.
    Last edited by dante; 01-09-2006 at 05:16 PM.

  8. #8
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    Re: 17 More U.S Troops Die For Halliburton

    Continue to twist things anyway you wish that makes you feel god about yourself Dante.

    Deferred Salary, by the way, is simply money already earned that is paid at a later date.

    By saying "17 More US Troops Die For Israel" or "17 More US Troops Die For Hallibutron" you imply the War is in fact being fought for one of the two mentioned.

    Your example of Gotti, Jr and the car thief show exactly how far you are willing to reach to prove your conclusions.

  9. #9
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    Re: 17 More U.S Troops Die For Halliburton

    Quote Originally Posted by RegulationE
    Continue to twist things anyway you wish that makes you feel god about yourself Dante.
    Why would you think that making a fool out of you should make me feel good about myself ? You're simply seeing your own level. My vice is in wasting my precious time on you. I plead guilty to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by RegulationE
    Deferred Salary, by the way, is simply money already earned that is paid at a later date.
    I really don't need any faulty definitions from you. There is no timing criteria. Defer simply means to postpone something. If my stock goes ex-dividend tomorrow, the effective results are the same regardless of when I take the distribution, unless there is some economic or tax advantage in so doing.
    The personal benefit of Cheney's deferments are obvious as are the obvious ethical implications.
    Last edited by dante; 01-09-2006 at 06:53 PM.

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    Re: 17 More U.S Troops Die For Halliburton

    Quote Originally Posted by RegulationE
    I suspect this will meet with your disapproval but here five reasons
    I don't "disapprove" of anything, but perhaps we can disprove any myths about our intentions through critical analysis.

    Remove Saddam's ability to manufacture/use WMD
    In order manufacture WMD, Iraq had to have the capability to manufacture WMD. There was no evidence that Iraq had reconstituted any such capability. So how could the war possibly have been about eliminating Iraq's capability to produce WMD?

    Find and dispose of Iraq's WMD (so we didn't find any)
    No WMDs were found because no WMDs were there. Naturally, then, there was no evidence that any WMDs existed. So how coudl the war possibly have been about elminating Iraq's WMD?

    Eliminate another place for Terrorists to train and find safe habor (not working exactly as planned)
    I'm not sure what you mean by suggesting the war didn't work "as planned". The results are precisely as predicted by any competent analyst--an increase in terrorism. So how could the war possibly have been about eliminating terrorism?

    Remove Saddam from Power
    Ah, now I think we're getting warmer. Of course, the next question would be "why?"

    Give Iraq back to the Iraqi's (we call it democracy right or wrong)
    I don't think that's the correct answer to the "Why?" question above.

    As for Halliburton, there's no conspiracy theory. Halliburton represents something bigger. It represents exploitation. If a person really thinks Halliburton was the reason behind this war, I would say they are delusional. But I don't think that's what anyone is saying (they are welcome to correct me if I'm wrong). I think they're saying this was a war for profit, a war of exploitation. Halliburton represents that.

  11. #11
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    Re: 17 More U.S Troops Die For Halliburton

    Yirmeyahu,

    Wars are fought for various reasons, and evidence of something is only one of them. The intel was there to show that Saddam had WMD. Intelligence information proven false after the fact does not change the fact it was believed prior to the War.

    Removing Saddams ability to wage war with WMDs did in fact happen. Whether there where WMDs or not is not the question here. Whether Saddam can ever wage war using them is the point.

    Admittedly, Stockpiles of WMDs have not been found in Iraq. Traces of WMDs where found in Iraq after the invasion, although it never seems to matter in the least to the anti-war crowd. Parts required to rebuild a nuclear program where also found, but again this does not matter to the anti-war crowd.

    An increase in terrorism is not the same as no war being fought against terrorism as we have debated previously. In any war, violence increases before it decreases. Some in the Administration wrongfully believed there would be dancing in the streets by most Iraqi's when the troops rolled in.

    As for why it was important to remove Saddam from Power, there are as many answers to the question why as there are people to ask.

    Clinton's comments on the matter:

    "If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." The stakes, he says, could not be higher. "Some day, some way, I guarantee you, he'll use the arsenal."

    Bush's claim was that "we can not afford to have proof in the form of a mushroom cloud."

    Both Presidents seem to believe that Regime Change in Iraq would lead to a more stable region.

    Giving Iraq back to the Iraqi's was not my "reason" for removing Saddam. It was simply another reason stated by the President.

    Finally, I again agree with you on something. "If a person really thinks Halliburton was the reason behind this war, I would say they are delusional."

    There are many delusional people in this country, some of them post the above opinion on this board often enough.

  12. #12
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    Re: 17 More U.S Troops Die For Halliburton

    Quote Originally Posted by RegulationE
    Yirmeyahu,

    Wars are fought for various reasons, and evidence of something is only one of them. The intel was there to show that Saddam had WMD. Intelligence information proven false after the fact does not change the fact it was believed prior to the War.
    I'm not talking about intelligence information proven false after the war. I'm talking about concocted evidence well known to be bogus long before the invasion ever began.

    The so-called "intelligence" was concocted to support the policy of "regime change". It was a highly successful CIA/White House propaganda campaign.

    Removing Saddams ability to wage war with WMDs did in fact happen. Whether there where WMDs or not is not the question here. Whether Saddam can ever wage war using them is the point.
    Saddam didn't have the ability to wage war with WMDs. So you can't possibily say we "removed" his ability to do so. You can't remove" the ability to do something where ability never existed in the first place. This is Orwellian logic.

    Admittedly, Stockpiles of WMDs have not been found in Iraq.
    Because there were no WMD. We knew that before the invasion.

    Traces of WMDs where found in Iraq after the invasion, although it never seems to matter in the least to the anti-war crowd.
    What doesn't seem to matter to the pro-war crowd is that no WMD were found, that the government lied to start a war. So let's not get trivial about "traces of WMD" (not sure what that means) and what "never seems to matter" to "the anti-war crowd".

    Parts required to rebuild a nuclear program where also found, but again this does not matter to the anti-war crowd.
    False. More propaganda. The IAEA had completely dismantled Iraq's nuclear capability, and they had not reconstituted it by one iota.

    An increase in terrorism is not the same as no war being fought against terrorism as we have debated previously.
    Whatever. Look. Only a propagadist or an irrational delusional person would say that taking actions which would knowingly increase the threat of terrorism are a "war on terrorism".

    It's like fighting a "war on drugs" by handing out crack in schools. Call it what you like, but it's not actually a "war on drugs". Call a dog "Duck" and it won't make him quack.

    In any war, violence increases before it decreases. Some in the Administration wrongfully believed there would be dancing in the streets by most Iraqi's when the troops rolled in.
    Another delusion completely dismissed by any competent analyst. Every competent analyst recognized deep resentment in the Iraqi people against the US for its long time support for Saddam followed by the bombing of their country and brutal sanctions regime costing the lives of more than a million, including half a million children. The notion that Americans invading their country would be greeted with flowers and kisses was preposterous.

    The fact that most Iraqis are happy Saddam is gone doesn't mean most Iraqis are also happy the Americans are there. Most Iraqis, first of all, think the war was about oil. Naturally. Secondly, most Iraqis want the US out. Naturally.

    As for why it was important to remove Saddam from Power, there are as many answers to the question why as there are people to ask.
    If you're looking for answers in publicly declared rhetorical pronouncments, you're wasting your time. Proclamations from politicians are meaningless. They don't contain any real information, just meaningless professions of benevolent intent.

    The answers may be found in the policy papers of the members of the administration, the neocons in particular. They make it very clear. Saddam was a "threat" to "U.S. interests", defined as "primarily access to Persian Gulf oil".

    Clinton's comments on the matter:

    "If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." The stakes, he says, could not be higher. "Some day, some way, I guarantee you, he'll use the arsenal."
    Bla, bla, bla. Meaningless. And what "arsenal"? A politician could convince an elephant that a mouse was a threat to him.

    Bush's claim was that "we can not afford to have proof in the form of a mushroom cloud."
    Quite right. That was his claim, clearly implying that Saddam was close to having a nuclear weapon, which was a complete and total fabrication.

    Both Presidents seem to believe that Regime Change in Iraq would lead to a more stable region.
    More secure "US interests", perhaps, but not necessarily a more stable region. No competent analysts predicted that invading Iraq would produce "stability" in the region. Quite the contrary, it was universally acknowledged that it would produce instability and dramatically increase the threat of terrorism.

    Giving Iraq back to the Iraqi's was not my "reason" for removing Saddam. It was simply another reason stated by the President.
    A meaningless declaration of benevolent intent. The most oppressive and brutal despots shower their people with nothing less.

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    Re: 17 More U.S Troops Die For Halliburton

    Quote Originally Posted by yirmeyahu
    The fact that most Iraqis are happy Saddam is gone doesn't mean most Iraqis are also happy the Americans are there. Most Iraqis, first of all, think the war was about oil.
    I wonder where they ever got that idea?

    Extreme left conspiracies from America.....perhaps?

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    Re: 17 More U.S Troops Die For Halliburton

    Quote Originally Posted by Raider
    I wonder where they ever got that idea?

    Extreme left conspiracies from America.....perhaps?
    :D

    I'm sure Iraqis ask where Americans ever got the idea that their defenseless nation was an imminent threat to the most powerful nation on the Earth. And I'm sure they answer, "extreme right conspiracies". And they would, of course, be correct.

    Talk about "conspiracies"... :rolleyes:

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    Re: 17 More U.S Troops Die For Halliburton

    Quote Originally Posted by RegulationE
    Yirmeyahu,

    Wars are fought for various reasons, and evidence of something is only one of them. The intel was there to show that Saddam had WMD. Intelligence information proven false after the fact does not change the fact it was believed prior to the War.

    Removing Saddams ability to wage war with WMDs did in fact happen. Whether there where WMDs or not is not the question here. Whether Saddam can ever wage war using them is the point.
    You may also believe that God told you if you flap your arms hard enough, you can fly to Paris. But if you jump off the Empire State Building and start flapping your arms, you're still going to hit the pavement on 34th Street at approximately 120 miles per hour.

    Bush claims to have believed Saddam had WMD. He claims God told him to invade Iraq. As disingenuous as that claim may be, Bush was elected to make correct assessments and exercise executive power in a prudent, cautious and perspicacious fashion. Instead, he chose to jump when some very experienced and authoritative experts were telling him his plan wouldn't fly and different results should be anticipated. Bush chose to ignore reason. Now we're heading towards the pavement.

    Quote Originally Posted by regulationE
    Admittedly, Stockpiles of WMDs have not been found in Iraq. Traces of WMDs where found in Iraq after the invasion, although it never seems to matter in the least to the anti-war crowd. Parts required to rebuild a nuclear program where also found, but again this does not matter to the anti-war crowd.
    Ha..ha..ha What never matters to the Pro-War Crimes Crowd is how idiotic and ridiculous all their hopelessly futile attempts at white washing Bush's crimes look in chronological context. It's all evolved from Bush claiming we were subject to imminent attack from a "nukular" armed Iraq to "traces of WMD found". If these pathetic loons weren't actually so shamelessly serious with their absurd and assanine advocacy of Bush's War Crimes, one might think this stuff was a script taken from a t.v. sitcom.


    Quote Originally Posted by regulationE
    An increase in terrorism is not the same as no war being fought against terrorism as we have debated previously. In any war, violence increases before it decreases. Some in the Administration wrongfully believed there would be dancing in the streets by most Iraqi's when the troops rolled in.

    As for why it was important to remove Saddam from Power, there are as many answers to the question why as there are people to ask.

    Clinton's comments on the matter:

    "If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." The stakes, he says, could not be higher. "Some day, some way, I guarantee you, he'll use the arsenal."

    Bush's claim was that "we can not afford to have proof in the form of a mushroom cloud."

    Both Presidents seem to believe that Regime Change in Iraq would lead to a more stable region.

    Giving Iraq back to the Iraqi's was not my "reason" for removing Saddam. It was simply another reason stated by the President.

    Finally, I again agree with you on something. "If a person really thinks Halliburton was the reason behind this war, I would say they are delusional."

    There are many delusional people in this country, some of them post the above opinion on this board often enough.
    Well..to the certifiably and criminally insane who advocate war, genocide and tyranny as public policy, it's no surprise that those who are sane and reasonable seem delusional. I'm currently reading the book "Berlin" by Anthony Beevor which is a chronicle of Germany's last days in WW II. This is the *term Hitler used against his top generals who were imploring him to refrain from opening up the eastern front against Russia. When they told him it was unadvisable and would lead to the destruction of the Wehrmacht, Hitler called them delusional. But, clearly, the right-wing loonies here aren't even familiar with our own history.
    Last edited by dante; 01-10-2006 at 06:00 AM.

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