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  1. #1
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    What did Jesus teach?

    I am very interested in knowing how many of you Christians explain John 10:34. This is when Jesus is being accused of blasphemy by the Jews, and his answer to them was John 10:34 “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?”

    The law he was referring to was of course the Old Testament. Psalms 82:6 reads “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most high.”

    There are only a few religions that teach we are literal children of God and therefore gods our selves. Do you say that Jesus lied when he said this? Jesus says he said it, stating that he is the author, “I said, Ye are gods.” Are you going to say Jesus took this out of context? Are you going to say Jesus was wrong?

    I would like very much to hear how you explain this. The Gospel of Jesus has been changed much over the years since his death, but his words never change and in them we can find his truth and his love.

  2. #2
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    Re: What did Jesus teach?

    The only interpretation I can offer is my own. It has evolved from the writings of Joe Campbell and others and is not purely a Christian POW, but I consider it relevant.

    Native Americans believed in what they called the ‘Medicine Wheel’ a symbolic representation of all life and all power contained in one force or entity. In the medicine wheel all things are related and are not complete separated even though we may see them as separate and apart in our every day reality. In this concept we all have a little piece of ‘GOD’ in us. If you consider that every bit of life and matter as just pieces of a puzzle, than putting them all together…..
    It makes sense to me anyway.

  3. #3
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    Re: What did Jesus teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worried_in_the_USA
    I am very interested in knowing how many of you Christians explain John 10:34. This is when Jesus is being accused of blasphemy by the Jews, and his answer to them was John 10:34 “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?”

    The law he was referring to was of course the Old Testament. Psalms 82:6 reads “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most high.”

    There are only a few religions that teach we are literal children of God and therefore gods our selves. Do you say that Jesus lied when he said this? Jesus says he said it, stating that he is the author, “I said, Ye are gods.” Are you going to say Jesus took this out of context? Are you going to say Jesus was wrong?

    I would like very much to hear how you explain this. The Gospel of Jesus has been changed much over the years since his death, but his words never change and in them we can find his truth and his love.
    Sure this is flamebait - but I'll take it. "Ye are gods" refers to judges. Ye are judges.

    Jesus came to bring peace to troubled souls and to show people how to live in a way that would not only lead them to God, but help them find a meaning to life that made sense. He was deeply concerned about people’s inability to find peace. Judge for yourself, you are empowered to do so; you are a judge.

  4. #4
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    Re: What did Jesus teach?

    Thanks, Lizard, I just checked. It is indeed 'elohim' in the Hebrew, and when 'elohim' is not referring to Hashem, the usual meaning is judge or judges. It's a weird word--an 'im' ending in Hebrew sometimes denotes a plural, but it can be a singular as well--Yerushalayim--Jerusalem, for example, not 'Jerusalems'. (The computer has problems speaking Hebrew, so I can't use the right font, but you get the idea.

    When it means G-d, it's singular, when it's talking about heavenly hosts (angels, though usually they're referred to as malachim) it's plural, and when it's talking about people, it can be either--Moses was also said to be a great elohim--judge.

    But remember that Psalms has a lot of poetry to it--a phrase such as 'you are like unto gods' or 'you are like unto the angelic host' wouldn't be so out-of-place either--but that's cos the Psalms are poems and hymns, more than straight homiletics.

    Can't help you with the verse in John, I'm not a scholar of Christianity. But if it points back to Psalms, that's what the psalm said anyway.

    Edited to add: There is nowhere in Jewish law (halacha) where it says people are gods. Psalms are not part of the legal code. So I'm stumped on that one.
    Last edited by ComplexKid; 12-31-2005 at 07:57 PM.

  5. #5
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    Re: What did Jesus teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by ComplexKid
    Thanks, Lizard, I just checked. It is indeed 'elohim' in the Hebrew, and when 'elohim' is not referring to Hashem, the usual meaning is judge or judges. It's a weird word--an 'im' ending in Hebrew sometimes denotes a plural, but it can be a singular as well--Yerushalayim--Jerusalem, for example, not 'Jerusalems'. (The computer has problems speaking Hebrew, so I can't use the right font, but you get the idea.

    When it means G-d, it's singular, when it's talking about heavenly hosts (angels, though usually they're referred to as malachim) it's plural, and when it's talking about people, it can be either--Moses was also said to be a great elohim--judge.

    But remember that Psalms has a lot of poetry to it--a phrase such as 'you are like unto gods' or 'you are like unto the angelic host' wouldn't be so out-of-place either--but that's cos the Psalms are poems and hymns, more than straight homiletics.

    Can't help you with the verse in John, I'm not a scholar of Christianity. But if it points back to Psalms, that's what the psalm said anyway.

    Edited to add: There is nowhere in Jewish law (halacha) where it says people are gods. Psalms are not part of the legal code. So I'm stumped on that one.
    CK,

    As usual, you provide richness to religious discussions. In support of your position I offer this verse:

    "If the thief is not caught, the owner of the house shall be brought before God ['elohim'], to determine whether or not the owner had laid hands on the neighbor’s goods." (Exodus 22:8).

    There are many who don’t take the time to understand. When G-d judges a person, He doesn’t simply weigh his sins and mitzvot on a scale. Rather, Hashem judges the individual himself. What is he? What does he represent? Does he embody good or evil?

    True, a person’s essential being depends on his past actions; but he is actually judged for the gestalt of his being, the whole and not the parts. When we learn to move beyond mistaken concepts our understanding of G-d becomes clearer.

    The farther you enter into the truth, the deeper it is." [Japanese Zen Master Bankei, 1622-1693]

  6. #6
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    Re: What did Jesus teach?

    Your idea that god means judge does not work in this case; Jesus was being accused of blasphemy. Nowhere did the Jews accuse him of calling himself a judge. Blasphemy is calling one self God, or a God. Many churches call this the only unforgivable sin. This is a clear demonstration of the true teaching of Christ that has been turned around one hundred and eighty degrees.

    Jesus claims to be the author of the Law, the Psalms. He is stating that this law says all men are gods. If you are a Christian then you have to accept the words of Christ and his interpretation of them. The fact that we are indeed gods changes much and explains even more. Jesus confirmed this idea when he said that we could move mountains if we had enough faith.

    Over the history of religion it was nothing the leaders of the Church wanted their members to understand. Today few people even notice this verse in the Bible (John 10:34), they have been so trained to believe what they have been told rather that what Christ said. Satan was released into this world long before us and had lots of time to plant his deceptions. I would hope that some might read this post and ponder it and decide for them selves if they will follow Jesus Christ or follow man.

  7. #7
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    Re: What did Jesus teach?

    Again, I am not a Christian scholar, but--I have a lot of problems with the Gospels, especially John. He's a lot more gnostic than the writers of the synoptics, the whole tone changes (and with all the pious fraud going on, I'm not so sure what we can and cannot take as original writings--there's a 62% agreement amongst the various thousands of redactions that we have actual texts of in 'New Testament' writings, and most of those date from the 9th century). Not meaning to trash Christians, that's not what I do, but I think you need to look at the work of some of the Jesus seminar folks, especially guys like Crossan, to get a better picture of the whole thing.

    Where does it say anyplace that the Psalms are part of the halachic code, or are mishnah, or are somehow connected to Jewish legal code? Nowhere that I can find, and that I do know a bit about.

    CK
    Last edited by ComplexKid; 01-01-2006 at 12:18 AM.

  8. #8
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    Re: What did Jesus teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by ComplexKid
    Again, I am not a Christian scholar, but--I have a lot of problems with the Gospels, especially John. He's a lot more gnostic than the writers of the synoptics, the whole tone changes (and with all the pious fraud going on, I'm not so sure what we can and cannot take as original writings--there's a 62% agreement amongst the various thousands of redactions that we have actual texts of in 'New Testament' writings, and most of those date from the 9th century). Not meaning to trash Christians, that's not what I do, but I think you need to look at the work of some of the Jesus seminar folks, especially guys like Crossan, to get a better picture of the whole thing.

    Where does it say anyplace that the Psalms are part of the halachic code, or are mishnah, or are somehow connected to Jewish legal code? Nowhere that I can find, and that I do know a bit about.

    CK
    CK,

    Know your audience my friend. Realize the agenda here. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

    "Some trolls may denounce a particular religion in a religion newsgroup, though historically, this would have been called "flamebait". Like those who engage in flaming, self-proclaimed or alleged Internet trolls sometimes resort to innuendoes or misdirections in the pursuit of their objectives. It is possible to distinguish between comments that are flamebait and as a result of trolling as flames have the intent of being anti-social and offensive and trolling comments have the intent of provoking a reaction, though trolling comments may also be perceived as being anti-social comments, although that may not have been the intent of the author."

    LS

  9. #9
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    Re: What did Jesus teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worried_in_the_USA
    Your idea that god means judge does not work in this case; Jesus was being accused of blasphemy. Nowhere did the Jews accuse him of calling himself a judge. Blasphemy is calling one self God, or a God. Many churches call this the only unforgivable sin. This is a clear demonstration of the true teaching of Christ that has been turned around one hundred and eighty degrees.

    Jesus claims to be the author of the Law, the Psalms. He is stating that this law says all men are gods. If you are a Christian then you have to accept the words of Christ and his interpretation of them. The fact that we are indeed gods changes much and explains even more. Jesus confirmed this idea when he said that we could move mountains if we had enough faith.

    Over the history of religion it was nothing the leaders of the Church wanted their members to understand. Today few people even notice this verse in the Bible (John 10:34), they have been so trained to believe what they have been told rather that what Christ said. Satan was released into this world long before us and had lots of time to plant his deceptions. I would hope that some might read this post and ponder it and decide for them selves if they will follow Jesus Christ or follow man.

    I will "Try" to help you understand it, but be open to my responce.

    First of all the refrence to John 10:34

    "You Are Gods", the refrence is taken from Ps. 82:6 does not attribute deity to the judges to whom it refers, but was a title of commendation, noting the God given capacities of human life and will - the fruit of being made "in his image".
    This is clearly seen in the appositional clause, "you are children of the most high" (Ps:82-6) Jesus; use here is as an argument from the lesser to the greater, not as a designation of his people. In other words, if God himself called the Jews "Gods" at that time, as verified by their own scriptures, how much more was Jesus now justified in calling himself the son of God, as verrified by his works, which were the father's?

    Ps: 82-6.
    This is quoted by Jesus in John 10:34 to defend his claim to sonship.
    Since all the Jewish leaders were called God's Children of the Most High, certainly Jesus should be allowed the title "Son of God", it is also fitting that Jesus uses this Psalm, which speaks of the corruption in leadership, since many religous leaders were corrupt at theat time in history. (Mathew 23).

  10. #10
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    Re: What did Jesus teach?

    Lizard, you may be right. But let us look at the verse in question, using 'divine beings, sons of the most high' as an alternate translation--even then it doesn't say anyone is G-d.

    'I had taken you for divine beings, sons of the Most High, all of you; but you shall die as men do, fall like any prince.'

    Why do I get the feeling that something was ripped wildly out of context to attempt to prove Worried's point?

  11. #11
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    Re: What did Jesus teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by ComplexKid
    Where does it say anyplace that the Psalms are part of the halachic code, or are mishnah, or are somehow connected to Jewish legal code? Nowhere that I can find, and that I do know a bit about.

    CK

    As a Christian I take Jesus’ word that Psalms 82:6 is the Law. I hope that makes sense. What else could he have been referring to?

  12. #12
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    Re: What did Jesus teach?

    I would have to hunt up a Christian bible and see the entire context, but the law does not derive from Psalms.

    Anything that falls into the category of halacha or mishna (law), derives from, or is an exposition of something found in the first five books of Moses--Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. The Talmud is basically a *huge* commentary on it, and came about as a way to preserve Jewish law in the Diaspora.

    The wiki article isn't too bad. Not great, but not too bad:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_law

    Psalms are in a category of writings called--writings, or ketuvim, in Hebrew, and they do not carry the force of law (this would also have been true in the time Jesus lived).

  13. #13
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    Re: What did Jesus teach?

    I understand your view on this, and hope you can understand mine. As a Christian I must rely on the words of Christ and the New Testament. Here is the entire story from the New Testament:

    John 10:23-40

    23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch.
    24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
    25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
    26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
    30 I and my Father are one.
    31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
    32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
    33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
    34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
    35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
    36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
    37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
    38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
    39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
    40 And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode.


    Never does it say that the Jews deny that they’re Law stated this. I hope this helps.

    Also, you appear to be Jewish from your responses, don't you find it odd that the Christians that frequent this forum have not tried to explain this passage? I do appreciate your input and thoughts, but I was hoping to also here from some of those who claim to be Christian that have so boldly stated their beliefs on this forum. It would seem they do not understand there Faith as well as they have previously claimed.
    Last edited by Worried_in_the_USA; 01-01-2006 at 03:15 PM.

  14. #14
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    Re: What did Jesus teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worried_in_the_USA
    I do appreciate your input and thoughts, but I was hoping to also here from some of those who claim to be Christian that have so boldly stated their beliefs on this forum. It would seem they do not understand there Faith as well as they have previously claimed.
    Your statements reflect epistemological tyranny. Tyranny of what we think we know, using our belief systems to justify repression of others. I have given consideration to what you have presented. It would appear that you have firmly decided to find an issue rather than finding answers.

    The reason G-d called the judges "gods" was because of their strength and power of position, not because of any deity within them. Jesus made his point by saying that the Scriptures declare men to be gods. Jesus was not minimizing His identity to be something less than G-d, but seems to be mocking the people with their own Scriptures. It could not be blasphemy if mere humans could carry the title of "gods" in the holy Scriptures, then they should not object to His claim either.

    Each man finds in these promises what lies in the depth of his own heart; either temporal or spiritual blessings. . . those who are looking for (temporal things) will find them indeed, but with many contradictions. . . and they find that the messiah did not come for them; whereas those who are looking for G-d find Him, without any contradictions, and find that they are bidden to love G-d alone and that a messiah did come at the time foretold to bring them the blessings for which they ask.” - Pascal

  15. #15
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    Re: What did Jesus teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Worried_in_the_USA
    I understand your view on this, and hope you can understand mine. As a Christian I must rely on the words of Christ and the New Testament.
    Thanks, Worried, I will hunt up the Greek later.

    Now--I know you believe in Jesus, but somewhere towards the other end of your bible--near the front--isn't there a passage in there referred to as 'The Ten Commandments' in Christian parlance?

    Those are laws. There are 603 similar laws in those chapters, concerning everything from what the high priest is supposed to wear, to the dietary laws, to divorce laws, to laws concerning quarranting people who have leprosy, etc.

    Hint: It's not in Psalms. It's in the Torah. The laws are given after this thing called 'The Exodus' happens. Maybe that rings a bell?

  16. #16
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    Re: What did Jesus teach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lizard Slayer
    Jesus was not minimizing His identity to be something less than G-d, but seems to be mocking the people with their own Scriptures.
    To state that Jesus was mocking them would seem to say he commited a sin. By mocking you mean, made fun of, a sin for sure. Since Jesus was without sin your statment is incorrect.

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