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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2005

    Real Conservatives Say Bush Worse Than Saddam

    A vet speaks out about Bush
    Dec 30, 2005, 06:34

    Tim Abbott is a Vietnam veteran who lives in the Southwestern Virginia town of Hillsville, a conservative, blue-collar community that tends to vote Republican and bleed red, white and blue.

    But, like an increasing number of veterans, Abbott is fed up with President George W. Bush.

    Bush talks a lot about freedom, courage, transparent government and the rule of law. He talks, Abbott says. His speeches are carefully choreographed before audiences of his faithful -- often Christian fundamentalists or, to paraphrase Bush, Christian-fascists -- and they must sign loyalty oaths to Bush. He speaks before audience after audience of soldiers and sailors who cannot speak except as directed by the White House.

    Normally, such comments would be risky in a mountain town where Patriotism rules supreme but Abbott expressed his views this week in an op ed article for The Roanoke Times and found many people agreeing with him.

    When I think of Bush, I do not think of liberty and courage, compassion and justice. No, I think of arrogance, greed and lies, Abbott wrote. He is a thug, a buffoon and a coward. Not only is he incompetent, he is corrupt.

    In normal times, these would be fighting words and Abbott would do well to avoid lunch at the Hillsville Diner, the Main Street eatery where the locals gather to discuss politics. But George W. Bushs times are not normal times and Abbott is greeted warmly on the streets of Hillsville.

    In his Mission Accomplished foray, (Bush) wore a military uniform, something no president has done since Washington, and Washington only wore the uniform to quell a rebellion, Abbott says. Around the world he has replaced the Soviet Gulag with the Bush Gulag, where men may be tortured.

    Abbotts comments come when this web site revealed that the Pentagon has ordered soldiers home from Iraq for holiday leave to give pro-war interviews to their hometown newspapers and television station. This does not surprise a veteran who learned about military duplicity in Vietnam.

    Others before whom he speaks may ask no questions. He runs from journalists, as we have seen in China, even on those rare occasions that he speaks before them, Abbott says of Bush. Even worse, he has paid journalists to say good things about him and his policies. He also produces propaganda from government offices that he offers as news reports. And any protests against his policies are diverted well away from his sight and hearing.

    In recent weeks, Ive spoken with dozens of vets of Vietnam, Desert Storm and the present invasion of Iraq and most speak with anger towards Bush and his policies.

    Soldiers serve under a code of honor, something they say Bush lacks.

    Bush is of a kind with the dictators; a strutting, sanctimonious buffoon who talks democracy but acts like Saddam Hussein, Abbott says. Bush might differ in degree from Hussein, not having been in power as long, but in behavior, with torture and the corruption of government, they are of a kind.

    While al-Qaida is an enemy of the values and principles of the United States and Western civilization and must be confronted, it can do no more than kill people and destroy property.

    Bush can subvert our principles and institutions. He is the greater enemy.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2005

    Re: Real Conservatives Say Bush Worse Than Saddam

    Rumsfeld Admits to "Ghosting" Detainee
    David Swanson, AfterDowningStreet.org

    December 29, 2005

    U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld has admitted that he "ghosted" a detainee, meaning that he made the decision to hold a prisoner without keeping any records of the fact.

    While prisoners of war can be theoretically stripped of their rights by calling them other names (like "unlawful combatants"), they are probably most effectively stripped of all rights by keeping their imprisonment secret. That is what Rumsfeld says he did.

    An account of what we know on this matter can be found on page 110 of a new report by Congressman John Conyers called "The Constitution in Crisis; The Downing Street Minutes and Deception, Manipulation, Torture, Retribution, and Cover-ups in the Iraq War."

    Following a catalog of evidence of other crimes sanctioned by top Bush Administration officials, the report reads:

    "We also have an admission that George Tenet specifically approved the ghosting in Iraq of a specific individual, and that Mr. Rumsfeld admitted to approving of ghosting of detainees as a special matter. During a press conference in June 2004, Secretary Rumsfeld confirmed not only that he was asked by CIA Director George Tenet to hide a specific detainee, but also that he hid the detainee and that the detainee was lost in the system for more than eight months:

    "Q -- Mr. Secretary, I'd like to ask why last November you ordered the U.S. military to keep a suspected Ansar al-Islam prisoner in Iraq [Hiwa Abdul Rahman Rashul] secret from the Red Cross. He's now been secret for more than seven months. And there are other such shadowy prisoners in Iraq who are being kept secret from the Red Cross.

    "SEC. RUMSFELD: With respect to the -- I want to separate the two. Iraq, my understanding is that the investigations on that subject are going forward. With respect to the detainee you're talking about, I'm not an expert on this, but I was requested by the Director of Central Intelligence to take custody of an Iraqi national who was believed to be a high-ranking member of Ansar al-Islam. And we did so. We were asked to not immediately register the individual. And we did that. It would -- it was -- he was brought to the attention of the Department, the senior level of the Department I think late last month. And we're in the process of registering him with the ICRC at the present time . . ."

    This is from June 17, 2004, and can be found here.

    This is the Secretary of Defense publicly stating that the Director of the CIA told him not to register a prisoner with the Red Cross, and that he obeyed, and that several months later the prisoner was still not registered.

    Why do Nuremberg Principles III and IV both come to mind?

    Principle III
    The fact that a person who committed an act which constitutes a crime under international law acted as Head of State or responsible Government official does not relieve him from responsibility under international law.

    Principle IV
    The fact that a person acted pursuant to order of his Government or of a superior does not relieve him from responsibility under international law, provided a moral choice was in fact possible to him.

    Why was the CIA calling the shots here? Because they had taken Mr. Rashul out of Iraq for "questioning" at an undisclosed location. They were transferring him to military custody.

    Rumsfeld agreed to keep Rashul off the books, and issued a classified order, that the New York Daily News reported on June 20, 2004, as reading: "Notification of the presence and or status of the detainee to the International Committee of the Red Cross, or any international or national aid organization, is prohibited pending further guidance."

    General Sanchez issued his own order to implement Secretary Rumsfeld's order. Sanchez' order, as reported in the media, "accepts custody and detains Hiwa Abdul Rahman Rashul, a high-ranking Ansar al-Islam member;" orders that he "remain segregated and isolated from the remainder of the detainee population;" "[o]nly military personnel and debriefers will have access to the detainee. . . . Knowledge of the presence of this detainee will be strictly limited on a need-to-know basis." "Any reports from interrogations or debriefings will contain only the mininum [sic] amount of source information . . ."

    The ghosting of Rashul can neither be blamed on low-ranking personnel nor be described as an isolated incident.

    In a statement to investigators, Col. Thomas M. Pappas, the top military intelligence officer at Abu Ghraib, said that in September 2003, the CIA requested that the military intelligence officials "continue to make cells available for their detainees and that they not have to go through the normal in processing procedures."

    Army General Paul Kern testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee in September 2004, that the U.S. had held as many as 100 ghost detainees in Iraq.

    Rumsfeld himself has confirmed that this was no isolated incident:

    "Q -- But then why wasn't the -- why wasn't the Red Cross told, and are there other such prisoners being detained without the knowledge of the Red Cross?

    "SEC. RUMSFELD: There are -- there are instances where that occurs. And a request was made to do that, and we did."

  3. #3
    coontie is offline Vashudeva; Ferryman - doing the work...
    Join Date
    Jul 2005

    Re: Real Conservatives Say Bush Worse Than Saddam

    Re the title of this thread: I disagree. I think that is stretching, exxagerating
    the situation very much.
    Pres, Bush has his issues and short comings, but he nor his cabinet has
    sponsored or ordered the atorcities discovered done by A VERY FEW of
    our troops; insecure idiots tht would take advantage of a humang being
    when they have them at a disadvantage. I despise these pin-headed
    idiots for carrying out such acts that would bring disgrace to our country.
    But they are directly, personally responsible for such actions. They were
    not ordered to do such things, nor was it a part of their military training.
    It got them all Dishonorable Discharges, which, after they get out of
    prison and try to get work and other benefits as civilians, they will find
    that this is the REAL BLACK MARK on their reputation. And justifiably
    so. ALso, Ft. Leavenworth Kansas Military prison is not a very nice
    cross-bar hotel. And anyone that thinks that the Iraqi prisoners, under
    their watch got bad treatment, you should hear what those military
    prison gurads do to someone if they give them any **** or are uncoop-
    erative. Ever heard of the rock-pile and busting them with a sledge
    hammer? Well, they still do that, amongst other things. And when their
    sentences are pronounced as X # of years hard labor, that is exactly
    what they will be doing.
    Anyhow, on a personal basis, as far as Saddam's direct participation in
    the atrocities committed in Iraq, I think he comes across even worse than
    Hitler or Joseph Stalin. Bush IS NOT in the same league!
    Last edited by coontie; 12-31-2005 at 06:17 AM. Reason: spelling

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2005
    SW United States

    Re: Real Conservatives Say Bush Worse Than Saddam

    Wow dchristie, I see your alter ego gets off just as much by posting pictures that make America look bad. Your mom must be proud.


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2005

    Re: Real Conservatives Say Bush Worse Than Saddam

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17
    Wow dchristie, I see your alter ego gets off just as much by posting pictures that make America look bad. Your mom must be proud.

    My mom, when she was alive. was a New York lawyer and argued cases before the Supreme Court. She was disgusted and appalled by what had been done to America by people like Bush and their useful idiots like you.

    My father, who is also deceased, was an MD/PHD Cardiologist, piloted a B29 bomber over Germany in WW 2 as a colonel in the US Air Force, and became the chancellor of one of America's largest military academies. He felt the same way. I admit, I've inherited a lot of their values

    Bush doesn't represent America. And neither do you. Don't thiink for a minute that people like Bush or you are fit to shine my parents shoes or pretend you represent us in any way. And for your information, they were both quite proud of me.
    Last edited by dante; 12-31-2005 at 08:20 AM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2005

    Re: Real Conservatives Say Bush Worse Than Saddam

    I think dchristie forgot which user id was logged in.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2005

    Re: Real Conservatives Say Bush Worse Than Saddam

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17
    Wow dchristie, I see your alter ego gets off just as much by posting pictures that make America look bad. Your mom must be proud.

    Wow, Grim, you would rather hide from the truth than "post" it because it makes America "look bad". Your mom must be proud.

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