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  1. #1
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    Bush's War On Terror Really A War On Freedom & Privacy

    N.S.A. READING YOUR E-MAILS!
    NEW YORK TIMES CONFIRMS THE NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY HAS BEEN INTERCEPTING AND READING THE E-MAILS OF THOUSANDS OF U.S. CITIZENS -- WITHOUT SEARCH WARRANTS!


    Bush has been violating the 4th Amendment through a veil of covert and illegal conduct for years and been getting away with it. This alone is an impeachable high crime and offense against The American People. Unfortunately, a complacent Congress and an apathetic public may continue to sit on their hands as Bush drives the final nails into the coffin containing our precious rights and liberties that so many sacrificed so much for. Is this how The Great Experiment finally dies? Murdered from within by a criminal government regime.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/15/po...gewanted=print
    Last edited by dante; 12-18-2005 at 05:13 AM.

  2. #2
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    Re: BUSH'S WAR ON TERROR REALLY A WAR ON FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    I seem to recall a law-suit about 6 or 7 years ago that involved e-mails being read by 'other' eyes. As I recall, the outcome was that e-mails are as private as a post card. In other words... Anyone can read anybody's e-mails as long as they do not interfere with it's delivery. Based upon this premise... how is the reading of an e-mail an invasion of privacy?

    The real concern is the possibility of domestic wire-taps... non-sanctioned by the courts.

    cheers,
    Paul

  3. #3
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    Re: BUSH'S WAR ON TERROR REALLY A WAR ON FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    Dante.....maybe you need to read the 4th amendment and also understand that all e-mail, that has not been encrypted, is not secured and is in fact public domain information.

    Amendment IV

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

    I looked really hard in there.....no mention of e-mail or telephone calls or even listening to a persons converstation. Laws may have been stretched or even broken, but not the 4th amendment.

  4. #4
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    Re: BUSH'S WAR ON TERROR REALLY A WAR ON FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    Quote Originally Posted by RegulationE
    Dante.....maybe you need to read the 4th amendment and also understand that all e-mail, that has not been encrypted, is not secured and is in fact public domain information.

    Amendment IV

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

    I looked really hard in there.....no mention of e-mail or telephone calls or even listening to a persons converstation. Laws may have been stretched or even broken, but not the 4th amendment.
    I think you're wrong about e-mail being public domain information. Could you please document where you read that.

    Considering that the 4th admendment was written sometime in the 1700's, I also think your comment about no mention of e-mail or telephone calls in it is something that would have been more expected from xxxxxx than from you. I'm surprised you wrote that.

  5. #5
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    Re: BUSH'S WAR ON TERROR REALLY A WAR ON FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    Hi Paul and RegulationE,

    What has to happen before the American people get angry enough to demand accountability from their elected employees?

    It is possibe the 4th amendment was not violated, but do you want to wait for that to happen, before it becomes clear that this country is in real trouble?

    When the government breaks any law, the citizenry is in deep, real trouble. Can we at least agree on that point?

    DeeDee1965

  6. #6
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    Re: BUSH'S WAR ON TERROR REALLY A WAR ON FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    bairdi,

    "I looked really hard in there.....no mention of e-mail or telephone calls or even listening to a persons conversation. Laws may have been stretched or even broken, but not the 4th amendment."

    My quote above was rather tongue in cheek. Of course there was no mention of email or telephones, they did not exist. However, conversation did exist and it was not written into the amendment.

    I have been every involved with the Internet and it's means of transporting information for over 10 years. I have even been involved with a case concerning e-mail interception. It is in fact viewed by the courts the same way a post card sent through the mail is viewed. One can not expect it to get from one place to another without being seen by others. As long as I do not stop it from reaching it's destination, there is nothing stopping me from reading it.

    DeeDee,

    My comments on this thread are very specific to the concept of reading e-mail that has been sent from point a to point b. Even Phone conversations to a certian extent you can not rationally expect not to be interecepted.

    The poster (dante) states the President violated the 4th Amendment when he allowed e-mail to be "sniffed" (reading contents without stopping transmission). This is not true. I simply get tired of the Grand Standing by Posters such as this and the Press especially when they continue to try to tear down the President with false or exaggerated stories. Provide proof the law was broken or don't write the story or post the thread.

    If you actually read the story from the link, you will see the story is vastly different then what the posters comment are in this thread. It does not come to the conclusion the 4th amendment has been violated nor that the President should be impeached. It does draw attention to the possibility things need to slow down a bit and asks some questions as to whether or not American's civil rights are being violated.

    I have said time and time again that if there is proof the President violated laws of this country, take appropriate action and call int he Grand Jury. The majority of crap that gets thrown at this president would not get past a junior level DA. It does not hold up and so when or if there is something that will hold up, it is very possible it will get lost in the rest of the trash thrown around.

    The story of the boy who cried wolf is an example of what very well may happen. He cried wolf three times and the town's people came running. Not a single one of those times was the wolf around. The last time he cried wolf there was a wolf, but no one was listening anymore. The boy was eaten by the wolf.

    The press and the democrats need to stop crying wolf until there is really a wolf around. Then we should come running and we will deal with the matter at hand.

  7. #7
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    Re: BUSH'S WAR ON TERROR REALLY A WAR ON FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    And yes DeeDee we can agree that if the government is allowed to break the law we are in trouble.

    If President Bush did in fact break the law, he deserves to go down on these charges. The problem is it does not appear he broke any laws here and the screaming and yelling is getting very old. BRING THE PROOF and then we can join forces and begin ridding ourselves of the cancer I call politicians. ;)

  8. #8
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    Re: BUSH'S WAR ON TERROR REALLY A WAR ON FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    100 STAT. 1861 PUBLIC LAW 99-508--OCT. 21, 1986

    "(1)a person or entity providing an
    electronic communication service to the
    public shall not knowingly divulge to
    any person or entity the contents of a
    communication while in electronic
    storage by that service; and
    "(2)a person or entity providing remote
    computing service to the public shall
    not knowingly divulge to any person or
    entity the contents of any
    communication which is carried or
    maintained on that service--
    "(A) on behalf of, and received by
    means of electronic transmission from
    (or created by means of computer
    processing of communications received
    by means of electronic transmission
    from), a subscriber or customer of such
    service;and
    "(B) solely for the purpose of
    providing storage or computer
    processing services to such subscriber
    or customer, if the provider is not
    authorized to access the contents of
    any such communications for purposes of
    providing any services other than
    storage or computer processing.
    "(b) EXCEPTIONS.--A person or entity
    may divulge the contents of a
    communication--
    "(1) to an addressee or intended
    recipient of such communication or an
    agent of such addressee or intended
    recipient;
    "(2)as otherwise authorized in section
    2516, 2511(2)(a), or 2703 of this
    title;
    "(3)with the lawful consent of the
    originator or an addressee or intended
    recipient of such communication, or the
    subscriber in the case of remote
    computing service;
    "(4)to a person employed or authorized
    or whose facilities are used to forward
    such communication to its destination;
    "(5)as may be necessarily incident to
    the rendition of the service or to the
    protection of the right or property of
    the provider of that service; or
    "(6)to a law enforcement agency, if
    such contents--
    "(A)were inadvertently obtained by
    the service provider; and
    "(B) appear to pertain to the
    commission of a crime.

    State and local "2703. Requirements for governmental
    governments. access
    18 USC 2703. "(a) CONTENTS OF ELECTRONIC
    COMMUNICATIONS IN ELECTRONIC
    STORAGE.--A governmental entity may
    require the disclosure by a provider of
    electronic communication service of the
    contents of an electronic
    communication, that is in electronic
    storage in an electronic communications
    system for one hundred and eighty days
    or less, only pursuant to a warrant
    issued under the Federal Rules of
    Criminal Procedure or equivalent State
    18 USC app. warrant. A governmental entity may
    require the disclosure by a provider of
    electronic communications services of
    the contents of an electronic
    communication that has been in
    electronic storage in an electronic
    communications system for more than one
    hundred and eighty days by the means
    available under subsection (b) of this
    section.
    "(b) CONTENTS OF ELECTRONIC
    COMMUNICATIONS IN A REMOTE COMPUTING
    SERVICE.--(1) A governmental entity may
    require a provider of remote computing
    service to disclose the contents of any
    electronic communication to which this
    paragraph is made applicable by
    paragraph (2) of this subsection--
    "(A) without required notice to
    the subscriber or customer, if the
    governmental entity obtains a warrant
    issued under the



    100 STAT. 1862 PUBLIC LAW 99-508--OCT. 21, 1986

    18 USC app. Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure or
    equivalent State warrant; or
    "(B) with prior notice from the
    governmental entity to the subscriber or
    customer if the governmental entity--
    "(i) uses an administrative
    subpoena authorized by a Federal or
    State statute or a Federal or State
    grand jury subpoena; or
    Post,p. 1864. "(ii) obtains a court order for
    such disclosure under subsection (d) of
    this section;
    except that delayed notice may be given
    pursuant to section 2705 of this title.
    "(2) Paragraph (1) is applicable with
    respect to any electronic communications
    that is held or maintained on that
    service--
    "(A) on behalf of, and received by
    means of electronic transmission from
    (or created by means of computer
    processing of communications received by
    means of electronic transmission from),
    a subscriber or customer of such remote
    computing service; and
    "(B) solely for the purpose of
    providing storage or computer processing
    services to such subscriber or customer,
    if the provider is not authorized to
    access the contents of any such
    communications for purposes of providing
    any services other than storage or
    computer processing.
    "(c) RECORDS CONCERNING ELECTRONIC
    COMMUNICATION SERVICE OR REMOTE
    COMPUTING SERVICE.--(1)(A) Except as
    provided in subparagraph (B), a provider
    of electronic communication service or
    remote computing service may disclose a
    record or other information pertaining
    to a subscriber to or customer of such
    service (not including the contents of
    communications covered by subsection (a)
    or (b) of this section) to any person
    other than a governmental entity.
    "(B) a provider of electronic
    communication service or remote
    computing service shall disclose a
    record or other information pertaining
    to a subscriber to or customer of such
    service (not including the contents of
    communications covered by subsection (a)
    or (b) of this section) to a
    governmental entity only when the
    governmental entity--
    "(i) uses an administrative
    subpoena authorized by a Federal or
    State statute, or a Federal or State
    grand jury subpoena;
    "(ii)obtains a warrant issued
    under the Federal Rules of Criminal
    Procedure or equivalent State warrant;
    "(iii)obtains a court order for
    such disclosure under subsection (d) of
    this section; or
    "(iv) has the consent of the
    subscriber or customer to such
    disclosure.
    (2)A governmental entity receiving
    records or information under this
    subsection is not required to provide
    notice to a subscriber or customer.
    Records. "(d) REQUIREMENTS FOR COURT ORDER.--A
    court order for disclosure under
    subsection (b) or (c) of this section
    shall issue only if the governmental
    entity shows that there is reason to
    believe the contents of a wire or
    electronic communication, or the records
    or other information sought, are
    relevant to a legitimate law enforcement
    inquiry. In the case of a State
    governmental authority, such a court
    order shall not issue if prohibited by
    the law of such State. A court issuing
    an order pursuant to this section, on a
    motion made promptly by the service
    provider, may quash or modify such
    order, if


    100 STAT. 1863 PUBLIC LAW 99-508--OCT. 21, 1986

    the information or records requested are
    unusually voluminous in nature or
    compliance with such order otherwise
    would cause an undue burden on such
    provider.
    "(e) NO CAUSE OF ACTION AGAINST A
    PROVIDER DISCLOSING INFORMATION UNDER
    THIS CHAPTER.--No cause of action shall
    lie in any court against any provider of
    wire or electronic communication
    service, its officers, employees,
    agents, or other specified persons for
    providing information, facilities, or
    assistance in accordance with the terms
    of a court order, warrant, subpoena, or
    certification under this chapter.

  9. #9
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    Re: BUSH'S WAR ON TERROR REALLY A WAR ON FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    Dante....

    You should read this page: http://cio.doe.gov/Documents/ECPA.HTM

    Paying special attention to

    "(g)it shall not be unlawful under this
    chapter or chapter 121 this title for
    Post p. 1860 any person---
    "(i)to intercept or access an
    electronic communication made through
    an electronic communication system
    that is configured so that such
    electronic communication is readily
    accessible to the general public;

    What you posted explains what I, as an ISP can or is required to do relating to data stored on our servers or transmitted across our network. If I deem something to be criminal in nature, I am allowed to provide it to government agencies without a warrant. And here in lies the loop hole for the government.

    They can place routers in 4 locations in the US and have access, within the law, to virtually every bit of data that is transmitted within the US over the Internet.

  10. #10
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    Re: BUSH'S WAR ON TERROR REALLY A WAR ON FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    Hi DeeDee,
    Reg-E explained it much more elequently than I could... we are in agreement :) This presidential election I'll be watching candidates closely... personally... I'd like to see McCain run, but he probably won't. He seems to be a sensible person... time will tell on that one.

    I've been online since 1996/97 and followed e-mail issues very closely as well. While I can't cite the case/chapter and verse standard e-mail is, indeed as private as a post-card.

    cheers,
    Paul

  11. #11
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    Re: BUSH'S WAR ON TERROR REALLY A WAR ON FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    Quote Originally Posted by RegulationE
    Dante....

    You should read this page: http://cio.doe.gov/Documents/ECPA.HTM

    Paying special attention to

    "(g)it shall not be unlawful under this
    chapter or chapter 121 this title for
    Post p. 1860 any person---
    "(i)to intercept or access an
    electronic communication made through
    an electronic communication system
    that is configured so that such
    electronic communication is readily
    accessible to the general public;

    What you posted explains what I, as an ISP can or is required to do relating to data stored on our servers or transmitted across our network. If I deem something to be criminal in nature, I am allowed to provide it to government agencies without a warrant. And here in lies the loop hole for the government.

    They can place routers in 4 locations in the US and have access, within the law, to virtually every bit of data that is transmitted within the US over the Internet.

    I'm always impressed by the degree of contorted mental acrobatics that supporters and apologists of The Bush Regime are willing to exert in their compulsive and tireless campaign to defend Bush from exposure and criticism. If nothing else, one must sit in awe of their efforts.

    However, in this case it's not so easy:

    Quote Originally Posted by dante
    a provider of electronic
    communication service or remote
    computing service shall disclose a
    record or other information pertaining
    to a subscriber to or customer of such
    service (not including the contents of
    communications covered by subsection (a)
    or (b) of this section) to a
    governmental entity only when the
    governmental entity--
    "(i) uses an administrative
    subpoena authorized by a Federal or
    State statute, or a Federal or State
    grand jury subpoena;


    it shall not be unlawful under this
    chapter or chapter 121 this title for
    Post p. 1860 any person---
    "(i)to intercept or access an
    electronic communication made through
    an electronic communication system
    that is configured so that such
    electronic communication is readily
    accessible to the general public;
    "(ii) to intercept any radio
    communication which is transmitted--
    "(I) by any station for the use
    of the general public, or that
    relates to ships, aircraft, vehicles,
    or persons in distress;
    "(II)by any governmental, law
    enforcement, civil defense, private
    land mobile, or public safety
    communications system, including
    police and fire, readily accessible
    to the general public;
    "(III) by a station operating on
    an authorized frequency within the
    bands allocated to the amateur,
    citizens band, or general mobile
    radio services; or
    "(IV) by any marine or
    aeronautical communications system;
    "(iii) to engage in any conduct
    which--
    It is clear that the intent of Congress in drafting the legislation and the crux of the issue regarding the 4th Amendment is based on what is considered "A reasonable expectation of privacy". And it is axiomatic that emails are reasonably expected to be private communications. Setting up clandestine routing stations for the purpose of eavesdropping does not meet the standard set for publicly accessible information.
    Last edited by dante; 12-18-2005 at 04:34 PM.

  12. #12
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    Re: BUSH'S WAR ON TERROR REALLY A WAR ON FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    Dante, what you are missing is that the law you have chosen to grace us with is only dealing with what a business can and can not do regarding the information they process for a customer.

    There is nothing to stop me from running a program, as an individual, that sniffs out packets and reads the content. The software to do this is commonly available. As long as I do not break encryption or keep the data from reaching it's destination, I am not in violation of the law.

    We warn people all the time not to send confidential information through e-mail because it is not a secure means of communication. A reasonable expectation of privacy does not exist when pretaining to e-mail.

  13. #13
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    Re: BUSH'S WAR ON TERROR REALLY A WAR ON FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    Quote Originally Posted by RegulationE
    Dante, what you are missing is that the law you have chosen to grace us with is only dealing with what a business can and can not do regarding the information they process for a customer.

    There is nothing to stop me from running a program, as an individual, that sniffs out packets and reads the content. The software to do this is commonly available. As long as I do not break encryption or keep the data from reaching it's destination, I am not in violation of the law.

    We warn people all the time not to send confidential information through e-mail because it is not a secure means of communication. A reasonable expectation of privacy does not exist when pretaining to e-mail.
    Well, actually, that's not the case. The Communications Act of 1986 does not confine its jurisdiction to businesses dealing with the processing of information. The law addresses any clandestine eavedropping activities whether conducted by business, private individuals or government.

    There is also a rather perceptible and elementary difference between the act of sniffing out packets at random and the act of deliberately targeting individual communications for eavesdropping.

    There is a very explicit and simple legal procedure prescribed for the purpose of conducting such activities which , in itself, is no more than a simple, rubber-stamp formality for The Government. In fact, the statute even allows the government to obtain authorization retroactively. This is just another example of The Bush Regime's contempt for liberty and the rule of law, not to mention the intelligence of many Americans.
    Last edited by dante; 12-18-2005 at 05:25 PM.

  14. #14
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    Re: BUSH'S WAR ON TERROR REALLY A WAR ON FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    Hello,

    I did not make myself clear when asking my questions. I understand the "letter" of the laws about privacy, and the monitoring of communications. What I really am concerned with is the "spirit" of the law.

    Focusing on the laws as written, causes us to forget that, there is no reason for the government to pursue, a blank monitoring of domestic communications. I will not quibble about *e-mails* as opposed to *phone calls* as opposed to *postal mail*. Those distinctions are a red herring. Getting bogged down in minutiae, causes the issue of why the government is doing it, to get lost.

    There is something happening here. What it is is not exactly clear, but if the American people do not wake up, our republic will vanish, and we will be left with nothing, but a memory. Mark my words.

    While the government reads my e-mails, the people planning another attack on this country are going about their work, in complete freedom. Think about it, if you were going to commit a serious crime, would e-mail your confederates??? :rolleyes:


    DeeDee1965

    I know, I just plagiarized two lines from a song, the name of which I cannot remember. But the lines are apt ;)

  15. #15
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    Re: BUSH'S WAR ON TERROR REALLY A WAR ON FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    Personally, I don't care if they read ALL of my e-mails. I don't have anything to hide.

    I will always be eternally grateful that this bunch of treasonous leftists did not exist during WW2. I think the upcoming months will be very bad for those who leaked this information to the NYT, and I hope their asses are "frog-marched" straight to Federal Prison and shot like the dogs that they are.

    It will take at least 2 more 9/11 style attacks on American soil for the left to figure out that the Islamofascists HATE the West, and that includes THE LEFT.

    This is the reason that liberal CAN NOT be trusted with National Security Issues.

    Senator Reid was briefed "2 months ago" (per him, although it will be proven it was far earlier and on more than one occasion) on this issue; Where were his concerns then?

  16. #16
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    Re: BUSH'S WAR ON TERROR REALLY A WAR ON FREEDOM & PRIVACY

    "It is not the function of our government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the government from falling into error." -- United States Supreme Court - American Communications Association v. Douds

    .

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