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  1. #1
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    Murtha Defeats Bush

    John Murtha: The Turning Point
    by Gary North

    When the history of the loss of the Iraq war is written by the losing side – ours – Congressman John Murtha's public opposition to the war will be highlighted as the turning point.

    Historians are always looking for turning points when they aren't looking for watersheds. What is the difference? A turning point loses a war. A watershed reverses an historical process. Murtha will be the turning point. The loss of the war will be the watershed: the great reversal of the post-World War II American Empire. Or so I hope – that some good will result from this military and strategic disaster.

    Murtha said in full public view that the pottery is broken and it cannot be fixed. There is only one rational response, he said: prepare for a pull-out of the troops before too many more of them die in a lost cause. He said this as a decorated military figure who has always voted for military expenditures.

    This was a major turnaround. This is what turning points are, by definition. Murtha will be seen by historians as the turning point of this war. He is just too tempting a figure for historians to ignore. He will become in retrospect the Tet Offensive of the Iraq War.

    Murtha is a media disaster for Bush. He looks like someone sent over by central casting. He exactly looks like what he is: a Marine who no longer wears a uniform. (There are no ex-Marines, as you will be informed if you have ever refer to a Marine to his face as a former Marine). He is an old guy. Old guys are supposed to be wise. He provided the media with what it always is looking for: a man bites dog story.

    Murtha has this unique advantage: he was a warrior. He received a bronze star and two purple hearts. This has created purple rage in the White House. There is no way to paste the dreaded "pacifist-activist" label on him. There is no way to tag him as a draft dodger, especially when the White House is run by successful draft-dodgers.

    Murtha is a pro-military Democrat in a blue-collar district. He has no Presidential ambitions or opportunity. He can therefore speak his mind as a non-partisan patriot. Why non-partisan? The medals. On military issues, decorated politicians who are not bucking for a promotion can speak out as non-partisans. Dole did as a Senator. So did Kerry. Only when Kerry ran for President was he attacked as a partisan on military matters. He was bucking for a promotion. Murtha is therefore untouchable on this issue. That is why he is the Administration's worst nightmare.

    The Democrats around him can see the obvious: Murtha has gotten away with it. His constituents are not calling for his head. He has challenged the war where (1) he has expertise and (2) it counts most in most voters' minds: it cannot be won by us. This is an appeal to pragmatism. Politicians are highly pragmatic.

    Pragmatism rests on cost-benefit analyses. Let us examine the cost-benefit factors in the minds of the voters – which I believe are not those in the mind of George W. Bush.

    THE COST-BENEFIT ANALYSIS

    The number of ideologically pro-war hawks is limited. So is the number of antiwar activists. There are very few of the latter – no crowds, no media outlets, not much organization. There is the Internet, which is significant and will grow more significant, but anti-war boots on the ground are few.

    This structure is true in every great public debate: ideologues at both ends of the spectrum, with the mass of voters in the amorphous and malleable middle.

    Voters today are making mental calculations about costs and benefits. The politicians are, too. The voters look at the death toll. The politicians look at the opinion polls.

    The death toll will rise. This is the central, unchallengeable fact of all wars. So, every politician who takes his country into a war had better have a long-term strategy to offset the inescapable political reality of the death toll. To work in the court of public opinion, his strategy must rest on a measurable statistic of equal or greater concern than the death toll.

    This counter-statistic may be enemy body counts. It was in Vietnam. Or it may be miles gained on the ground. It was after D-Day. "Give George a headline, and he's good for 30 miles" was Omar Bradley's assessment of Patton's motivation. Eisenhower appreciated every mile. Patton received his share of headlines.

    Here is the crucial American political fact of the Iraq war: the hawks have no statistic that rivals the death toll. "We don't do body counts," said General Tommy Franks (retired). The Administration is betting the war on the outcome of the election to be held later this month. But once the election is over, what then? There are too many years in between elections. The death toll rises every day. It is the Chinese water torture of statistics.

    Americans do not care about Iraq. They do not care how many civilians have been killed by American bombs. They do not care about Saddam Hussein any more. They do not care about oil, which barely flows from Iraq. Americans do not care about Iraq at all, except as a way to demonstrate American power. That option is fading, day by day. The death toll marks it.

    SUNK COSTS: SIX FEET UNDER

    The debate has now been reduced to the doctrine of sunk costs. It therefore cannot be won by Bush.

    The voting public thinks: "All those troops have died. We dare not lose. This would turn those deaths into a gigantic meaningless sacrifice."

    This argument works to one side's advantage in every war. Before it finally ceases to be believed by the other side's supporters, it works until the public finally recognizes the meaning of the doctrine of sunk costs: the past is past. The past cannot be changed.

    In economics, this principle of analysis applies to losses already sustained by an investor. The investor – emotionally unwilling to acknowledge the finality of his bad judgment – clings to the hope that he can "get even" by sticking with this bad investment. He stays the course. If it rises, he imagines, his decision to buy will be vindicated. This is all nonsense, says the economist. Had the investor waited to buy at today's lower price, he could have bought in cheaper. There is no escape from the economic fact of the loss.

    If the investment continues to decline in price, the typical investor will sell it. He just cannot take it any longer. He sells because the investment keeps going down. When the fear of greater losses at last overcomes his desire to get even in order to vindicate his own lack of judgment, he sells.

    It is exactly the same in every war for at least one side. The voters hang on to their belief that going to war was a good idea, that all those deaths were not in vain. But eventually they realize that more deaths cannot resurrect the dead troops. They know this in theory from the beginning, but they do not know it emotionally.

    This is why the death toll is the death knell for one side or the other in a war. At some point, one side says, "It's better to surrender than to fight on."

    The debate today is over the meaning of the body counts. The war's defenders are still in the phase where they will not acknowledge the reality of the doctrine of sunk costs. They will.

    The fact that the insurgents have tripled the number of attacks in 2005 over 2004 shows where this war is headed.

    At some point after mid-January, 2009, most American troops will be brought home. A few may stay behind as special forces guarding the oil wells from Iraqis – and not just the insurgents. But the war will be officially lost, just as the war in Vietnam was officially lost.

    CONCLUSION

    Bush has broken the pottery. He owns it . . . for now. Whether the next President will play Nixon to Johnson, there will eventually be a President who will play Ford to Nixon. The last helicopter will pull out of the Green Zone. Let us hope that it is not then shot down.


    December 2, 2005

    Gary North is the author of Mises on Money. Visit http://www.garynorth.com.

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    Re: Murtha Defeats Bush

    Quote Originally Posted by sojustask
    John Murtha: The Turning Point
    by Gary North

    When the history of the loss of the Iraq war is written by the losing side – ours
    That was enough of that article right there.

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    Re: Murtha Defeats Bush

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17
    That was enough of that article right there.
    And this explains why you don't know much of anything.

    There is NONE so blind than he who WILL NOT SEE.


    Namaste'

    Lady Mod

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    Re: Murtha Defeats Bush

    Quote Originally Posted by sojustask
    And this explains why you don't know much of anything.

    There is NONE so blind than he who WILL NOT SEE.


    Namaste'

    Lady Mod

    There is NONE so unpatriotic than he who WILL ROOT FOR HIS COUNTRIES DEFEAT

    .

  5. #5
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    Re: Murtha Defeats Bush

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17
    There is NONE so unpatriotic than he who WILL ROOT FOR HIS COUNTRIES DEFEAT

    .

    Who is rooting for this countries defeat Grim. We've already lost as there was nothing to win. We haven't stopped terrorism, we haven't won more cheap oil, we haven't won anything. If capturing Saddam was worth 2,000 plus lives, we need to re-evalutate what we are willing to send our children to die for.

    And you best be careful who you call unpatriotic.

    Let that be your one and only warning.

    Lady Mod

  6. #6
    coontie is offline Vashudeva; Ferryman - doing the work...
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    Re: Murtha Defeats Bush

    People that desire to win a debate turn it into an argument by displaying
    their desperation to win at any cost by resorting to bullying, name calling and
    insults. So it becomes evident here in some of the post.
    The article is pretty much right on the money and there wil be more that
    will come out to reveal what a sham this whole thing has turned out to
    be.
    The aircraft carrier landing and talk by Bush over two years ago still
    pretty much stands for his intelligence and presence of mind in
    waging and understanding what a war is, and sizing up his enemy and
    potential developing distasteful conditions. It pretty much tells anyone
    factually how adpet a "commander-in-chief" he is. It also says how much
    he personally is consciously and directly aware of the plight of every
    last combat man involved. If I was him I think I would have very many
    sleepless nights and also be haunted by how many children no longer
    have a living father, wives their husbands, mothers and fathers,
    sisters and brothers their loved one.
    You know, there are those of us human beings out here that are personally
    touched and care about the loss of another's life. We don't think about it
    or consider it as some obviously do, like a wad of spent gum that is spit
    out on the street because we are finished with it!
    The "sunk" investment is a very interesting point. Much less the fact,
    consideration, THAT ANYTIME WE ASK OUR MILITARY COMBAT PERSONNEL
    TO BE COMMITTED TO AN ENGAGEMENT THAT WE INSURE, IN EVERY
    RESPECT, THAT THEIR SACRFICE IS WORTHWHILE.
    There is very few individuals out here in the public that do not take it
    as a matter of conscience the death and maiming of every last single
    combat person.
    The fact of the matter NOW is that we need a better plan and I am getting
    sick and tired of seeing President Bush appear before "sanitized" groups
    of individuals and spouting the same tired old line, as if he thinks in
    his arrogance and irresponsible attitude that this will turn events and
    stop the carnage of our troops and stem the flow of capital from
    our country's treasury. In the meantime the rich get richer and couldn't
    care less about our combat troops or "ordinary people"; again... "let them
    eat cake!"
    I wish that you that seem so willing to continue to argue that what is
    occuring there is okay and right that you could summarily be sent there
    to be alongside of our people. You would change your minds drastically
    in a few minutes and would be yelling for a way out of there, fast!
    You may counter and argue that "they" signed on the line to be there
    and accepted being killed or maimaed as a major possibility. But what each
    and every person ask and expects is that, when they are "signing on the line"
    they are trusting that those in power and authority are not careless or
    negligent in their being properly equipped and protected. In other words
    given EVERY ADVANTAGE POSSIBLE, GOING IN! This wasn't intially done
    then nor now is being done.
    I really wish that we, the people and public, was privy, knew first hand
    the military comminuques being sent back and forth. I think now many
    are pretty desperate and angry. However, we are kept in the "mushroom
    farming" mode; that is: kept in the dark and fed a lot of horse manure!
    Call Colonel Murtha a coward, stupid, turncoat? I wish you that are so
    inclined that it could be arranged that you could say this to him personally.
    You may have him sized up as an old man, but_________; you fill in
    the blank! Also, once a Marine, always... is true. Many Marines will not
    stand for another to be insulted such a some have insulted John Murtha.
    But that's alright: careless people do as careless people are.
    I am from a family of many career Marine corp people, most all in combat,
    up close and personal. I have a relation now that has been in Afganistan
    for 2 years, is back in the states training in the Mountain Ranger school
    and then is going to Iraq the first of the year. He is 23 years old. Last
    count: 54 percent of combat casualities in Iraq are 24 years of age or
    younger. So how are you sleeping President Bush, V.P. Cheney and all
    of you that have your dumbed-down blinders on? How nice it is to
    sit at your sumptous meals, in a clean, glittering, well-lighted enviroment,
    while most of these people are eating M.R.E.'s and drinking bad water?
    Why aren't you there? I know... priviliged, by office. You don't suppose...
    And your bank accounts; how are thay doing now days, investments and
    financial dealings working out pretty well, hmmm? And how about those
    folks there in harms way... how much are you paying them. What do you think
    their life is worth?
    I myself was engaged in combat in Vietnam for six years in the U.S. Air
    Force and 14 years total - 108 combat missions.
    How many know that often we feel that it is up to us. We are on our own.
    If we cannot hold up, there isn't anyone to help. That's the way it feels.

  7. #7
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    Re: Murtha Defeats Bush

    Quote Originally Posted by sojustask
    Who is rooting for this countries defeat Grim.
    It appears that Gary North is for sure. By his article, he believes the war is over and we have lost it appears.

    Quote Originally Posted by sojustask
    We've already lost as there was nothing to win.
    Personal opinion here. By this way of thinking there was nothing to win by joining World War I or World War II. We did not increase the size of our country. We didn't bring back the spoils of War. In fact WWII was probably one of the worst things for us as it set off the "baby boom" and now we are dealing with the finacial strain of all the troops coming back and making babies. We accomplished nothing that really mattered to American's with the exception of showing Japan who was boss. I guess we lost those wars as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by sojustask
    We haven't stopped terrorism, we haven't won more cheap oil, we haven't won anything. If capturing Saddam was worth 2,000 plus lives, we need to re-evalutate what we are willing to send our children to die for.


    Quote Originally Posted by sojustask
    And you best be careful who you call unpatriotic.

    Let that be your one and only warning.

    Lady Mod
    Someone is feeling a little ruffled by her beliefs it appears. Is it that maybe you are feeling a little unpatriotic right now? I only ask because the only person who was directly called unpatriotic was Gary North and you seemed to take exception to that. Are you related to him? Is he a close family friend?

    Sometimes when it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck......it is in fact a duck.

    Grim17, at least this time, did not call out anyone on this forum by name claiming them to be unpatriotic. He did not even use the words "you", "she", or "her" in his response. No way was he calling you out as unpatriotic, not this time Lady Mod.

    There is no question that when you cheer for your countries defeat, celebrate the number of casualties, praise the enemy, call for he heads of your government all in the name of protesting a war, you are in fact being unpatriotic. Gary North in his very first line of the article shows his true colors. He not only is pulling for the defeat of the country, he is promoting the false fact that it has already happened.

    The is a major difference between one who believes the action is wrong and one who will do anything and every thing to include treason in an attempt to stop something. This is not to imply Gary Horn has committed Treason.

    One who goes around promoting lies about how this country has been defeated in Iraq, while the war is still ongoing is slime. That of course is my opinion.

    For the record, there is a big difference betweenwhat Gary Horn wrote and Congressman Murtha.

    By all accounts he has not said we have lost this war, or even that it was wrong. He has said he felt we have accomplished everything we can accomplish with the military and it is time to bring them home.

  8. #8
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    Re: Murtha Defeats Bush

    Quote Originally Posted by coontie
    I myself was engaged in combat in Vietnam for six years in the U.S. Air
    Force and 14 years total - 108 combat missions.
    How many know that often we feel that it is up to us. We are on our own.
    If we cannot hold up, there isn't anyone to help. That's the way it feels.
    I moved this paragraph up so it does not get lost in the rest of what I have to say.

    THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE! You are from a period in our history that this country should be ashamed of. From a time when the troops on the ground where viewed as the criminals for following orders. While many volunteered for the fight, most did not. All who went to Vietnam answered the call of their country and should have received hero's welcomes upon their return.

    I do not know whether you’re relative who has 2 years in Afghanistan and will be deployed to Iraq volunteered because they wanted to serve their country or because they wanted to have school paid for. Based on the fact they are training in the Mountain Ranger School I would have to believe they are serving because of a sense of duty. Please pass along my thanks to them as well no matter what their reason for being in the military may be, they deserve our gratitude.


    Quote Originally Posted by coontie
    People that desire to win a debate turn it into an argument by displaying their desperation to win at any cost by resorting to bullying, name calling and insults. So it becomes evident here in some of the post.
    One or the other of us is reading one post and posting to another. Might be me, lots of windows open as I work and post. But this thread, at least up to your post, had not resorted in bullying, name calling, or insults of any forum poster.

    Quote Originally Posted by coontie
    The article is pretty much right on the money and there wil be more that
    will come out to reveal what a sham this whole thing has turned out to
    be.
    Based on your experiences in Vietnam, I can understand why you may believe this. You participated in the only war this country ever lost. The only thing you know from experience is fighting in a losing war. (This does not mean the same thing as you are a loser, you followed orders I would assume and did not plan the battle). What is does is give you a perspective that is different from those that fought in the first Gulf War. My friends and relative fought in the first Gulf War and many are back in Iraq now. They do not view things the same way Gary Horn does.

    Quote Originally Posted by coontie
    If I was him I think I would have very many sleepless nights and also be haunted by how many children no longer have a living father, wives their husbands, mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers their loved one.
    Rather shallow and short sighted of you to think The President does not feel the same way as you, has not lost countless nights of sleep, does not care about each and every soldier, airman, sailor, marine that has been lost or injured and each member of their family.

    Quote Originally Posted by coontie
    Much less the fact, consideration, THAT ANYTIME WE ASK OUR MILITARY COMBAT PERSONNEL TO BE COMMITTED TO AN ENGAGEMENT THAT WE INSURE, IN EVERY RESPECT, THAT THEIR SACRFICE IS WORTHWHILE.
    While you may not believe the freedom of the Iraqi People and the Afghan People is worthwhile, there are many who are over their fighting for it that do believe. Don't even go into this was not the reason we where told that we went to war in Iraq because, frankly, it is short sighted to say that the lives where lost for nothing simply because the reasons stated to go to war haw since proven to have been wrong assumptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by coontie
    The fact of the matter NOW is that we need a better plan and I am getting
    sick and tired of seeing President Bush appear before "sanitized" groups
    of individuals and spouting the same tired old line
    Honestly, do you even know what the plan is? How can you say we need a better plan when you have not be given information about the current plan? I agree with you in that we need to have more information about the current plan and what accomplishment we have made towards completing that plan. One thing we did so well in the Gulf War was to brief the press and the American people almost daily about what was going on.

    It is possible and should be a daily briefing explaining the progress being made in Iraq and Afghanistan in my opinion.

    As far as "Sanitized" groups, Kerry and the Democrats could very easily host a speech at any of the places Bush has if they so desired. I would actually like to see Kerry give one of his speeches one on of the same stages as Bush does. Kerry as well uses "Sanitized" groups to give his speeches.

    Quote Originally Posted by coontie
    In the meantime the rich get richer and couldn't care less about our combat troops or "ordinary people"; again... "let them eat cake!"
    Is the world supposed to stop turning until we have all the troops home? Are we supposed to stop going about our business? Simply because people continue to go to work and continue to make money does not mean they could care less about our troops.

    Quote Originally Posted by coontie
    I wish that you that seem so willing to continue to argue that what is occuring there is okay and right that you could summarily be sent there to be alongside of our people. You would change your minds drastically in a few minutes and would be yelling for a way out of there, fast!
    If this were true, there would be no one willing to go back for another tour. Every time personnel came home you would hear of all the terrible things going on in Iraq and you would hear people screaming that they would not go back. You would see thousands of military personnel going AWOL and heading for sympathetic nations for asylum. I know too many service men and women that want to go back and continue the mission because they believe in it and they believe what they are doing is meaningful.

    Quote Originally Posted by coontie
    You may counter and argue that "they" signed on the line to be there and accepted being killed or maimaed as a major possibility. But what each and every person ask and expects is that, when they are "signing on the line" they are trusting that those in power and authority are not careless or negligent in their being properly equipped and protected. In other words given EVERY ADVANTAGE POSSIBLE, GOING IN! This wasn't intially done then nor now is being done.
    No, I will counter with you fight a battle with the troops and equipment you have and not what you wish you had. They where sent with every advantage possible going in and they continue to get every advantage possible now. The possible part is where you get hung up. Even though it is possible to invent a better armor some day, or it is possible to produce more armor now, we did not have it at the time we went in. We also did not feel we could wait any longer. So we sent the troops in with everything they possible could have at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by coontie
    I really wish that we, the people and public, was privy, knew first hand the military comminuques being sent back and forth. I think now many are pretty desperate and angry. However, we are kept in the "mushroom farming" mode; that is: kept in the dark and fed a lot of horse manure!
    It would be nice to have more information, without the spin. That will not happen in the day and age of politicians being more concerned with getting elected then with doing what is right. However, if we had the information, I think now most (those there) are pretty excited about the progress being made based on the information I have received from friends and relatives in the arena.

    Quote Originally Posted by coontie
    Call Colonel Murtha a coward, stupid, turncoat? I wish you that are so inclined that it could be arranged that you could say this to him personally. You may have him sized up as an old man, but_________; you fill in the blank! Also, once a Marine, always... is true. Many Marines will not stand for another to be insulted such a some have insulted John Murtha. But that's alright: careless people do as careless people are.
    I listened to the debate in the House before the vote for or against withdrawing troops immediately. He was the one debating for the Democrats and he had some very important things to say. I did not hear the words Coward, Stupid, or Turncoat come out of a single persons mouth that was speaking on the floor of the House.

    If I had the opportunity to speak to him personally I would tell him I appreciate his view points, I would thank him for his service, and I would say that I agree with him we need to be more informed as to exactly what is taking place on the ground. I would also tell him he is wrong to call for the complete redeployment of our troops at this point in time.

    Quote Originally Posted by coontie
    And how about those folks there in harms way... how much are you paying them. What do you think their life is worth?
    Who much they are getting paid and how much their life is worth are not related. This country would go broke paying the very first salary if you tried to put a dollar figure on the worth of a person’s life.

    Yes I know, bean counters for the insurance companies put values on people’s lives all the time, but they have an error in their calculation. They only calculate the earning potential of the individual when they calculate risk. The value of the persons life does not factor in the enjoyment they bring to others, what they may teach others, how much they value spending time with their family and friends.

    So how much do you think a person's life is worth?
    Last edited by RegulationE; 12-02-2005 at 09:27 PM.

  9. #9
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    Re: Murtha Defeats Bush

    Grim17, at least this time, did not call out anyone on this forum by name claiming them to be unpatriotic. He did not even use the words "you", "she", or "her" in his response. No way was he calling you out as unpatriotic, not this time Lady Mod.
    DING... DING... DING...

    WE HAVE A WINNER!

    (Thanks RegulationE )

    Isn't this a special treat for me today. I get to follow the rules and still get warned. If it didn't sink in yet lady mod, I was referring to the author of that piece, Mr. Gary North.

    So, could you find it in your heart to retract my "one and only warning" so I can use it on a rainy day?

    Thank you.

    .

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    Re: Murtha Defeats Bush

    Quote Originally Posted by RegulationE
    It appears that Gary North is for sure. By his article, he believes the war is over and we have lost it appears.
    Economically, he is correct. You do have to look at the authors background and expertise to understand from what angle he is writing from. At least it helps to do that. :)

    Personal opinion here. By this way of thinking there was nothing to win by joining World War I or World War II. We did not increase the size of our country. We didn't bring back the spoils of War. In fact WWII was probably one of the worst things for us as it set off the "baby boom" and now we are dealing with the finacial strain of all the troops coming back and making babies. We accomplished nothing that really mattered to American's with the exception of showing Japan who was boss. I guess we lost those wars as well.
    I guess so, considering that between Japan and China they practically own us.

    Someone is feeling a little ruffled by her beliefs it appears. Is it that maybe you are feeling a little unpatriotic right now? I only ask because the only person who was directly called unpatriotic was Gary North and you seemed to take exception to that. Are you related to him? Is he a close family friend?

    Sometimes when it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck......it is in fact a duck.

    Grim17, at least this time, did not call out anyone on this forum by name claiming them to be unpatriotic. He did not even use the words "you", "she", or "her" in his response. No way was he calling you out as unpatriotic, not this time Lady Mod.
    Not at all Reg. I probably do more to support the troops on a personal level than most do, that is not an issue for me. I was just giving him a friendly warning before he made the mistake of getting full of himself and crossing the line in his zeal to be right.


    There is no question that when you cheer for your countries defeat, celebrate the number of casualties, praise the enemy, call for he heads of your government all in the name of protesting a war, you are in fact being unpatriotic. Gary North in his very first line of the article shows his true colors. He not only is pulling for the defeat of the country, he is promoting the false fact that it has already happened.

    The is a major difference between one who believes the action is wrong and one who will do anything and every thing to include treason in an attempt to stop something. This is not to imply Gary Horn has committed Treason.

    One who goes around promoting lies about how this country has been defeated in Iraq, while the war is still ongoing is slime. That of course is my opinion.

    For the record, there is a big difference betweenwhat Gary Horn wrote and Congressman Murtha.

    By all accounts he has not said we have lost this war, or even that it was wrong. He has said he felt we have accomplished everything we can accomplish with the military and it is time to bring them home.
    The man was giving his opinion of how things stand the way he sees it. I would not call him unpatriotic for that. I've read other things he has written in the past and it's uncanny how accurate he can be in his assessments later down the road.

    The point of the article was to point out that Murtha's opposition to the war was going to be the turning point in history. I think he is right, just LOOK at all that has happened since that impassioned plea was made?

    The thing to remember is these analysts do not write from emotion but from what can be determined by what is currently happening. However, as long as you guys continue to read and color the articles in your emotional states you will never see the articles for what they are.

    Lady Mod

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    Re: Murtha Defeats Bush

    Quote Originally Posted by sojustask
    Economically, he is correct. You do have to look at the authors background and expertise to understand from what angle he is writing from. At least it helps to do that. :)



    I guess so, considering that between Japan and China they practically own us.



    Not at all Reg. I probably do more to support the troops on a personal level than most do, that is not an issue for me. I was just giving him a friendly warning before he made the mistake of getting full of himself and crossing the line in his zeal to be right.



    The man was giving his opinion of how things stand the way he sees it. I would not call him unpatriotic for that. I've read other things he has written in the past and it's uncanny how accurate he can be in his assessments later down the road.

    The point of the article was to point out that Murtha's opposition to the war was going to be the turning point in history. I think he is right, just LOOK at all that has happened since that impassioned plea was made?

    The thing to remember is these analysts do not write from emotion but from what can be determined by what is currently happening. However, as long as you guys continue to read and color the articles in your emotional states you will never see the articles for what they are.

    Lady Mod



    I agree that murthas opposition is the turning point in a LOT of things. All of the momentum from the dems ridiculous cries of "liar" went away immediately. Democrats were forced to reveal just a sliver of what they MIGHT believe and it has changed every single day since then as they search in desperation for a position that is not a losing one.

    A bit of their nature has been revealed to all.

    As for the article above, that is going to reflect the 'new' democrat position on the war. Realizing that we WILL NOT LOSE and that NOT losing will be bad for them, democrats are now going to declare that we already did lose!

    Is there no limit to how low they will go? The answer is no...there is no limit.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    12,866

    Re: Murtha Defeats Bush

    Quote Originally Posted by pwrone
    I agree that murthas opposition is the turning point in a LOT of things. All of the momentum from the dems ridiculous cries of "liar" went away immediately. Democrats were forced to reveal just a sliver of what they MIGHT believe and it has changed every single day since then as they search in desperation for a position that is not a losing one.

    A bit of their nature has been revealed to all.

    As for the article above, that is going to reflect the 'new' democrat position on the war. Realizing that we WILL NOT LOSE and that NOT losing will be bad for them, democrats are now going to declare that we already did lose!

    Is there no limit to how low they will go? The answer is no...there is no limit.
    Truly well said. The Democrats learned that strategy from the Republicans, who are very good teachers when it comes to how low one can go. I think that the Dems learned the lesson well too.

    Lady Mod

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