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  1. #1
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    Is This A Democratic Flip Flop?

    The democrats need to get their story straight. John Kerry said yesterday in the democratic response to the presidents speech in Annapolis said:

    "We know the views their bringing back to us (the troops) and we share their view. They are committed to this mission. They believe in this mission and we, all of us believe in our troops."

    John Kerry stated that the democratic party believes in this mission. That seems to contradict completely the cries from democrats and the people on this board, does it not?

    Kerry said that the democratic solution did not seek to set an "artificial date for withdraw." He continued, saying that Mertha's plan was "to seek an estimated timetable for success, which will permit the withdraw of our troops"

    That is the biggest load of deer droppings I've heard in a while. He just used double talk to completely contradict himself. He said in essence:

    1) Democrats want to set a time.
    2) When that time is reached, proclaim "Success!"
    3) Now pull the troops out and go home.

    Adding the word "success" to it, doesn't change its meaning one bit.

    Explanation anyone?

    .

  2. #2
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    Re: Is This A Democratic Flip Flop?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17
    The democrats need to get their story straight. John Kerry said yesterday in the democratic response to the presidents speech in Annapolis said:

    "We know the views their bringing back to us (the troops) and we share their view. They are committed to this mission. They believe in this mission and we, all of us believe in our troops."

    John Kerry stated that the democratic party believes in this mission. That seems to contradict completely the cries from democrats and the people on this board, does it not?

    Kerry said that the democratic solution did not seek to set an "artificial date for withdraw." He continued, saying that Mertha's plan was "to seek an estimated timetable for success, which will permit the withdraw of our troops"

    That is the biggest load of deer droppings I've heard in a while. He just used double talk to completely contradict himself. He said in essence:

    1) Democrats want to set a time.
    2) When that time is reached, proclaim "Success!"
    3) Now pull the troops out and go home.

    Adding the word "success" to it, doesn't change its meaning one bit.

    Explanation anyone?

    .

    They are running around like roaches...what position do I take? What lie will forward my career? Now pelosi wants to claim that most dems WANT immediate withdrawal...and so does she. There is truly no bottom to the empty well of their souls. There biggest fear is success in Iraq, which is inevitable. Not a great time to go limp...

  3. #3
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    Re: Is This A Democratic Flip Flop?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17
    The democrats need to get their story straight. John Kerry said yesterday in the democratic response to the presidents speech in Annapolis said:

    "We know the views their bringing back to us (the troops) and we share their view. They are committed to this mission. They believe in this mission and we, all of us believe in our troops."

    John Kerry stated that the democratic party believes in this mission. That seems to contradict completely the cries from democrats and the people on this board, does it not?
    Better read it again Grim. John Kerry said that the troops are committed to the mission and that the democratic party believes in our troops. How on earth could you misinterpret that?

    Kerry said that the democratic solution did not seek to set an "artificial date for withdraw." He continued, saying that Mertha's plan was "to seek an estimated timetable for success, which will permit the withdraw of our troops"

    That is the biggest load of deer droppings I've heard in a while. He just used double talk to completely contradict himself. He said in essence:

    1) Democrats want to set a time.
    2) When that time is reached, proclaim "Success!"
    3) Now pull the troops out and go home.

    Adding the word "success" to it, doesn't change its meaning one bit.

    Explanation anyone?

    .
    Well, if your reading comprehension was working correctly today, you wouldn't need to ask. :) Mr. Kerry did not use double talk, as I already pointed out. And what part please do you not understand about "estimated timetable for success, which will permit the withdraw of our troops"?

    It seems pretty straight forward. Bush already declared this war a success once, so how many times does it need to be declared a success to ACTUALLY BE A SUCCESS so that we can start pulling the troops out?

    There's your explanation.

    Namaste'

    Lady Mod
    Last edited by sojustask; 12-02-2005 at 03:48 AM.

  4. #4
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    Re: Is This A Democratic Flip Flop?

    Quote Originally Posted by pwrone
    They are running around like roaches...what position do I take? What lie will forward my career? Now pelosi wants to claim that most dems WANT immediate withdrawal...and so does she. There is truly no bottom to the empty well of their souls. There biggest fear is success in Iraq, which is inevitable. Not a great time to go limp...

    Lack of reading comprehension must be contagious. You actually misread the quote too? Pwrone, I am honestly surprised. Pelosi can claim what Pelosi wants, but everything I'm reading and hearing is that the Democrats just want a timetable to bring the troops home. Most sane people understand we can't just say, "Nice knowing you, see around the minefields" and just leave. But we can and should expect a projected date of when we will start leaving, and not tolerate any more procrastinating from the Bush administration.

    Lady Mod

  5. #5
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    Re: Is This A Democratic Flip Flop?

    Quote Originally Posted by pwrone
    There is truly no bottom to the empty well of their souls. There biggest fear is success in Iraq, which is inevitable.
    Hey... wait a minute... I thought we had "success" a few years back when we only had about 200-250 dead soldiers on our hands?

    I guess by inevitable you mean "every Iraqi who rejects the puppet government put in place by the U.S. is dead."

    Even the Iraqi Prime Minister said that "the U.S. occupation of Iraq is a failure."

  6. #6
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    Re: Is This A Democratic Flip Flop?

    Quote Originally Posted by sojustask
    Better read it again Grim. John Kerry said that the troops are committed to the mission and that the democratic party believes in our troops. How on earth could you misinterpret that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17
    The democrats need to get their story straight. John Kerry said yesterday in the democratic response to the presidents speech in Annapolis said:

    "We know the views their bringing back to us (the troops) and we share their view. They are committed to this mission. They believe in this mission and we, all of us believe in our troops."

    John Kerry stated that the democratic party believes in this mission. That seems to contradict completely the cries from democrats and the people on this board, does it not?
    Well Lady Mod, I know this looks like I am coming to the defense of Grim..and I guess I am. Simply by reading what I highlighted in red you can see the comparison used to come to Grim's conclusion that Kerry and the Democrats support this mission.

    Kerry states: We know their views and we share their views.
    Troops views: We believe in this mission.

    Simply math anology.... if A = B and B = C then A = C

    Kerry (speaking for Democrats) share the views of the troops coming back
    Troops coming back believe in this mission

    Kerry (speaking for Democrats) there by is saying they believe in this mission.

    Quote Originally Posted by sojustask
    Well, if your reading comprehension was working correctly today, you would need to ask. Mr. Kerry did not use double talk, as I already pointed out. And what part please do you not understand about "estimated timetable for success, which will permit the withdraw of our troops"?
    As you see, by simply highlighting different parts of the same paragraph the meaning changes completely. Listening to Kerry, it sure sounded to me like he was saying the troops view of the mission was also his view of the mission.

    Quote Originally Posted by sojustask
    It seems pretty straight forward. Bush already declared this war a succes once, so how many times does it need to be declared a success to ACTUALLY BE A SUCCESS so that we can start pulling the troops out?
    The war was without doubt a success as far as war goes. Unfortunately simply because the mission of removing Saddam from power was completed and successful, does not mean the troops are no longer needed. The rebuilding is on going and not nearly completed yet.

    It would be nice to know what the goals of the continued deployment are currently so we have something to judge the rebuilding by. But is it really appropriate to place a time table on the withdraw of troops without knowing how long it will take to stablize the post major conflict region?

    Quote Originally Posted by sojustask
    There's your explanation. Next time you might want to read the article twice before posting.

    Namaste'

    Lady Mod
    Very fine explaination of a left spin. Having provided the right spin on the same article, maybe it needs to be read three or four times before making final judgement ;)

  7. #7
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    Re: Is This A Democratic Flip Flop?

    Thank you RegulationE, you have saved me some writing and it is appreciated.

    As for the second part, lady mod if you are reading things black and white your conclusion makes sense. I'm not thought...

    What is a time table? It is an estimated time for an event to fall within. During this whole debate that we watched in congress, the democrats never discussed "Success". All they discussed was "Withdraw" and it wasn't stated with "success" being a rider on it either. So for Mr.Kerry to stand in front of the cameras and now try and say this was all about winning the war, and as a result the troops would come home, is a pathetic joke and an insult to the American people.

    Try googling to find the quotes from last week from the democrats on withdrawing, then lets see the "Time table for success" quotes you find.

    Kerry's speech was a back-peddle, whitewash, snow job, lie or whatever you want to call it, but it certainly wasn't the truth.

    .

  8. #8
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    Re: Is This A Democratic Flip Flop?

    Quote Originally Posted by RegulationE
    Well Lady Mod, I know this looks like I am coming to the defense of Grim..and I guess I am. Simply by reading what I highlighted in red you can see the comparison used to come to Grim's conclusion that Kerry and the Democrats support this mission.

    Very fine explaination of a left spin. Having provided the right spin on the same article, maybe it needs to be read three or four times before making final judgement ;)
    I'll admit it, I looked up the actual speech first and didn't base my reply on the ONE paragraph. Reading the speech in entirety does not require one to read it twice or three or four times. I guess I just don't like left or right spins. LOL.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Kerry
    SPEECH http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/s...005_11_30.html

    Senator Kerry’s Response to President Bush’s Speech at the US Naval Academy

    Excerpts of remarks as prepared for delivery

    "I want to start by saying that our troops in Iraq are serving with bravery and resolve of the highest caliber. These are truly some of the most amazing men and women I've ever met. I respect them and their commitment to our country and our world tremendously. And that's why we owe it to them to have an honest conversation about Iraq.

    We have entered a make-or-break six month period in Iraq. Our success depends on eliminating the overwhelming impression among Iraqis that we seek a long-term occupation. This perception not only fuels the insurgency; it's the primary obstacle to Iraqis believing that their government is truly their own -- one that they must step up and fight for themselves.

    The president says no war has ever been won on a timetable - and I say to him: No war has ever been won with sound-bites. No war has ever been won by keeping the American people in the dark. No war has ever been won without a clear strategy.

    The American people and the Iraqi people want the administration to detail a plan to bring our troops home.

    We know leading political figures from Sunni, Shia and Kurdish Iraqi factions, under the auspices of the Arab League, called for a timetable for U.S. withdrawal

    We know a survey conducted for the British Ministry of Defense found that more than 8 in 10 Iraqis want the U.S. to set a timetable for leaving.

    The administration is also hearing it from their own generals and senior defense experts in the Republican Party. General George Casey, our top military commander in Iraq, recently told Congress that our large military presence "feeds the notion of occupation" and "extends the amount of time that it will take for Iraqi security forces to become self-reliant." And Richard Nixon's Secretary of Defense Melvin Laird, breaking a thirty year silence, wrote, ''Our presence is what feeds the insurgency, and our gradual withdrawal would feed the confidence and the ability of average Iraqis to stand up to the insurgency."

    It's time the administration got the message: because our continued presence is not seen as legitimate by many Iraqis over the long term, the insurgency is seen as legitimate in the short term.

    It comes down to this: the phased withdrawal of American forces is part of the strategy for success. Only by offering a clear plan that has the Iraqis standing up for Iraq will the administration finally do right by our troops - and finally give Iraqis the confidence to stand up and fight for themselves so we don't have to."

    Quote Originally Posted by [url
    http://www.johnkerry.com/[/url]]

    On the front page:

    It is interesting that whenever the President speaks about Iraq or the War on Terror it is in front of troops.

    All of us believe our troops are doing an extraordinary job. They believe in the mission and we believe in them.

    This debate is not about an artificial timetable for withdrawal. It is about setting a timetable for success.

    The President recently said, "America will not run in face of car bombers and assassins so long as I am Commander-in-Chief." We all agree. No one is talking about running in the face of a challenge.

    The question is how to succeed - and the President still has not set out the reality of what feeds the insurgency.

    The president says no war has ever been won on a timetable - and I say to him: No war has ever been won with sound-bites. No war has ever been won by keeping the American people in the dark. No war has ever been won without a clear strategy.
    It sure makes a difference when you read exactly what was said.

    Namaste'

    Lady Mod
    Last edited by sojustask; 12-02-2005 at 05:07 AM.

  9. #9
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    Re: Is This A Democratic Flip Flop?

    Quote Originally Posted by sojustask
    I'll admit it, I looked up the actual speech first and didn't base my reply on the ONE paragraph. Reading the speech in entirety does not require one to read it twice or three or four times. I guess I just don't like left or right spins. LOL.






    It sure makes a difference when you read exactly what was said.

    Namaste'

    Lady Mod
    I was just about to post the same thing myself sojustask. I reread that quote by grim and they're was misspelled. It sort of raised a red flag as to if the information was the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I'm not knocking him, but I learned long ago that you have to research most of what grim posts before you can accept it as fact.
    Last edited by bairdi; 12-02-2005 at 05:40 AM.

  10. #10
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    Re: Is This A Democratic Flip Flop?

    Well lady mod, now that you can see that senator Kerry did in fact say and imply what I said he had, what is your interpretation of where the Democratic party stands?

    Do they support the mission like Kerry says, or do they not support it like we have heard democrats say before yesterday?

    Which plan was Murtha's plan, the one the democrats got behind calling for a timetable for withdrawing the troops, or the one Kerry talked about that was a timetable for success, which btw also means the troops leave Iraq?

    I know you don't care for political spin, so I was sure not to include any in this post. Just the facts.

    Thanks.

    .

  11. #11
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    Re: Is This A Democratic Flip Flop?

    Quote Originally Posted by bairdi
    I was just about to post the same thing myself sojustask. I reread that quote by grim and they're was misspelled. It sort of raised a red flag as to if the information was the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I'm not knocking him, but I learned long ago that you have to research most of what grim posts before you can accept it as fact.

    To my knowledge sir, your insinuation is a lie.

    I have never made up a story, or mis-quoted anything. If you wish to stand by your implication that my posts aren't accurate, might I suggest you provide some proof of this to support your attack on my honesty and integrity.

    I will not of course, expect any examples to be provided by you, because I believe there aren't any that exist.

    Thank you

    .

  12. #12
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    Re: Is This A Democratic Flip Flop?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17
    Well lady mod, now that you can see that senator Kerry did in fact say and imply what I said he had, what is your interpretation of where the Democratic party stands?

    Do they support the mission like Kerry says, or do they not support it like we have heard democrats say before yesterday?

    Which plan was Murtha's plan, the one the democrats got behind calling for a timetable for withdrawing the troops, or the one Kerry talked about that was a timetable for success, which btw also means the troops leave Iraq?

    I know you don't care for political spin, so I was sure not to include any in this post. Just the facts.

    Thanks.

    .
    You best go back and read it again Grim. You are still having comprehension problems. The democrats do not believe in the mission, they believe in the troops who believe in the mission. I support the troops, I don't support this war. That is what Kerry was saying.

    I pointed out Murtha's plan from his website to Pwrone in the democrats so funny thread. Check it out and learn something from the source not a commentary about the source.

    Bush hasn't put forth a plan for "success" or withdrawal. All the dems want is some kind of timetable to when we can determine we have been successful and the troops can be withdrawn. Why is that so hard for you to understand? Murtha said is was time we had some serious discussion started and make up a plan to withdraw, which he determines that once such a plan was put into action would only take 6 months to complete.

    When you post actual facts Grim, we can have a serious discussion. But so far, you haven't posted any. Sorry, but that's the truth.

    Lady Mod

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    Re: Is This A Democratic Flip Flop?

    Quote Originally Posted by bairdi
    I was just about to post the same thing myself sojustask. I reread that quote by grim and they're was misspelled. It sort of raised a red flag as to if the information was the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I'm not knocking him, but I learned long ago that you have to research most of what grim posts before you can accept it as fact.
    Well, both sides have a problem with that once in awhile. I double check all of them, regardless of which side.

    Namaste'

    Lady Mod

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    Re: Is This A Democratic Flip Flop?

    Lady mod, I'm sorry but John Kerry did not say he or the democrats were opposed to this mission. He said he shares the view of the troops, and the troops believe in the mission and are committed to it. I have the audio of his speech right here on my computer, thats why there was a misspelled word when I quoted him. Please point out to me the part of Kerry's speech that said or implied that he or the democrats were against this mission.

    Then please point out in Mertha's plan, exactly the "Stratigy" for winning this conflict, besides setting a time table for it. Because a time table that says we need to be the victor by a certain date, that doesn't state how it gets done, is nothing more than a date that they want our troops to either have the mission completed, or else "Cut and run".

    Like I have stated, I am behind the president when he says that any sort of time table is NOT ACCEPTABLE! It benifits nobody except our enemies.

    .

  15. #15
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    Re: Is This A Democratic Flip Flop?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17
    Lady mod, I'm sorry but John Kerry did not say he or the democrats were opposed to this mission. He said he shares the view of the troops, and the troops believe in the mission and are committed to it. I have the audio of his speech right here on my computer, thats why there was a misspelled word when I quoted him. Please point out to me the part of Kerry's speech that said or implied that he or the democrats were against this mission.

    Then please point out in Mertha's plan, exactly the "Stratigy" for winning this conflict, besides setting a time table for it. Because a time table that says we need to be the victor by a certain date, that doesn't state how it gets done, is nothing more than a date that they want our troops to either have the mission completed, or else "Cut and run".

    Like I have stated, I am behind the president when he says that any sort of time table is NOT ACCEPTABLE! It benifits nobody except our enemies.

    .
    Grim I have not replaced the sound card on my computer so I can not hear the sound clip, nor do I bother wasting my time with television as I think it makes people stupid and braindead. I looked for a transcript but still only come up with what is written on his website. If you will find me a transcript of his words, I'll be happy to read them and retract my statement.

    Murtha is calling for discussion on removing the troops. Just about everyone would like to know what will constitute "mission accomplished" and Bush needs to decide just what that would be. That is what is being asked of Bush as well. Murtha never had a strategy for saying what will win the conflict, that wasn't his decision to make, it's the President's. He did say discussions should be started right away to determine this.

    The point is Grim, in an atmosphere where the war is extremely unpopular with the masses and so much bad is showing up in the White House, it would behoove the president to start this discussion of troop removal and what signs to look for to determine that the objectives (whatever those are now, they seem to keep changing) are to look for that signal it's time to begin exiting that country and letting them govern themselves. We've been there two years now, no one wants another VietNam.

    Lady Mod

  16. #16
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    Re: Is This A Democratic Flip Flop?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17
    To my knowledge sir, your insinuation is a lie.

    I have never made up a story, or mis-quoted anything. If you wish to stand by your implication that my posts aren't accurate, might I suggest you provide some proof of this to support your attack on my honesty and integrity.

    I will not of course, expect any examples to be provided by you, because I believe there aren't any that exist.

    Thank you

    .
    Grim, I never meant to impugn your honesty or integrity. That was not my intent. I apologize. I'll just leave it at that.

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