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  1. #1
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    JOE LIEBERMAN: OUR TROOPS Must STAY

    =Our Troops Must Stay

    America can't abandon 27 million Iraqis to 10,000 terrorists.

    BY JOE LIEBERMAN
    Tuesday, November 29, 2005 12:01 a.m. EST

    I have just returned from my fourth trip to Iraq in the past 17 months and can report real progress there. More work needs to be done, of course, but the Iraqi people are in reach of a watershed transformation from the primitive, killing tyranny of Saddam to modern, self-governing, self-securing nationhood--unless the great American military that has given them and us this unexpected opportunity is prematurely withdrawn.

    Progress is visible and practical. In the Kurdish North, there is continuing security and growing prosperity. The primarily Shiite South remains largely free of terrorism, receives much more electric power and other public services than it did under Saddam, and is experiencing greater economic activity. The Sunni triangle, geographically defined by Baghdad to the east, Tikrit to the north and Ramadi to the west, is where most of the terrorist enemy attacks occur. And yet here, too, there is progress.

    There are many more cars on the streets, satellite television dishes on the roofs, and literally millions more cell phones in Iraqi hands than before. All of that says the Iraqi economy is growing. And Sunni candidates are actively campaigning for seats in the National Assembly. People are working their way toward a functioning society and economy in the midst of a very brutal, inhumane, sustained terrorist war against the civilian population and the Iraqi and American military there to protect it.

    It is a war between 27 million and 10,000; 27 million Iraqis who want to live lives of freedom, opportunity and prosperity and roughly 10,000 terrorists who are either Saddam revanchists, Iraqi Islamic extremists or al Qaeda foreign fighters who know their wretched causes will be set back if Iraq becomes free and modern. The terrorists are intent on stopping this by instigating a civil war to produce the chaos that will allow Iraq to replace Afghanistan as the base for their fanatical war-making. We are fighting on the side of the 27 million because the outcome of this war is critically important to the security and freedom of America. If the terrorists win, they will be emboldened to strike us directly again and to further undermine the growing stability and progress in the Middle East, which has long been a major American national and economic security priority.

    Before going to Iraq last week, I visited Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Israel has been the only genuine democracy in the region, but it is now getting some welcome company from the Iraqis and Palestinians who are in the midst of robust national legislative election campaigns, the Lebanese who have risen up in proud self-determination after the Hariri assassination to eject their Syrian occupiers (the Syrian- and Iranian-backed Hezbollah militias should be next), and the Kuwaitis, Egyptians and Saudis who have taken steps to open up their governments more broadly to their people. In my meeting with the thoughtful prime minister of Iraq, Ibrahim al-Jaafari, he declared with justifiable pride that his country now has the most open, democratic political system in the Arab world. He is right.

    In the face of terrorist threats and escalating violence, eight million Iraqis voted for their interim national government in January, almost 10 million participated in the referendum on their new constitution in October, and even more than that are expected to vote in the elections for a full-term government on Dec. 15. Every time the 27 million Iraqis have been given the chance since Saddam was overthrown, they have voted for self-government and hope over the violence and hatred the 10,000 terrorists offer them. Most encouraging has been the behavior of the Sunni community, which, when disappointed by the proposed constitution, registered to vote and went to the polls instead of taking up arms and going to the streets. Last week, I was thrilled to see a vigorous political campaign, and a large number of independent television stations and newspapers covering it.

    None of these remarkable changes would have happened without the coalition forces led by the U.S. And, I am convinced, almost all of the progress in Iraq and throughout the Middle East will be lost if those forces are withdrawn faster than the Iraqi military is capable of securing the country.

    The leaders of Iraq's duly elected government understand this, and they asked me for reassurance about America's commitment. The question is whether the American people and enough of their representatives in Congress from both parties understand this. I am disappointed by Democrats who are more focused on how President Bush took America into the war in Iraq almost three years ago, and by Republicans who are more worried about whether the war will bring them down in next November's elections, than they are concerned about how we continue the progress in Iraq in the months and years ahead.

    Here is an ironic finding I brought back from Iraq. While U.S. public opinion polls show serious declines in support for the war and increasing pessimism about how it will end, polls conducted by Iraqis for Iraqi universities show increasing optimism. Two-thirds say they are better off than they were under Saddam, and a resounding 82% are confident their lives in Iraq will be better a year from now than they are today. What a colossal mistake it would be for America's bipartisan political leadership to choose this moment in history to lose its will and, in the famous phrase, to seize defeat from the jaws of the coming victory.

    The leaders of America's military and diplomatic forces in Iraq, Gen. George Casey and Ambassador Zal Khalilzad, have a clear and compelling vision of our mission there. It is to create the environment in which Iraqi democracy, security and prosperity can take hold and the Iraqis themselves can defend their political progress against those 10,000 terrorists who would take it from them.

    Does America have a good plan for doing this, a strategy for victory in Iraq? Yes we do. And it is important to make it clear to the American people that the plan has not remained stubbornly still but has changed over the years. Mistakes, some of them big, were made after Saddam was removed, and no one who supports the war should hesitate to admit that; but we have learned from those mistakes and, in characteristic American fashion, from what has worked and not worked on the ground. The administration's recent use of the banner "clear, hold and build" accurately describes the strategy as I saw it being implemented last week.

    We are now embedding a core of coalition forces in every Iraqi fighting unit, which makes each unit more effective and acts as a multiplier of our forces. Progress in "clearing" and "holding" is being made. The Sixth Infantry Division of the Iraqi Security Forces now controls and polices more than one-third of Baghdad on its own. Coalition and Iraqi forces have together cleared the previously terrorist-controlled cities of Fallujah, Mosul and Tal Afar, and most of the border with Syria. Those areas are now being "held" secure by the Iraqi military themselves. Iraqi and coalition forces are jointly carrying out a mission to clear Ramadi, now the most dangerous city in Al-Anbar province at the west end of the Sunni Triangle.

    Nationwide, American military leaders estimate that about one-third of the approximately 100,000 members of the Iraqi military are able to "lead the fight" themselves with logistical support from the U.S., and that that number should double by next year. If that happens, American military forces could begin a drawdown in numbers proportional to the increasing self-sufficiency of the Iraqi forces in 2006. If all goes well, I believe we can have a much smaller American military presence there by the end of 2006 or in 2007, but it is also likely that our presence will need to be significant in Iraq or nearby for years to come.

    The economic reconstruction of Iraq has gone slower than it should have, and too much money has been wasted or stolen. Ambassador Khalilzad is now implementing reform that has worked in Afghanistan--Provincial Reconstruction Teams, composed of American economic and political experts, working in partnership in each of Iraq's 18 provinces with its elected leadership, civil service and the private sector. That is the "build" part of the "clear, hold and build" strategy, and so is the work American and international teams are doing to professionalize national and provincial governmental agencies in Iraq.

    These are new ideas that are working and changing the reality on the ground, which is undoubtedly why the Iraqi people are optimistic about their future--and why the American people should be, too.

    I cannot say enough about the U.S. Army and Marines who are carrying most of the fight for us in Iraq. They are courageous, smart, effective, innovative, very honorable and very proud. After a Thanksgiving meal with a great group of Marines at Camp Fallujah in western Iraq, I asked their commander whether the morale of his troops had been hurt by the growing public dissent in America over the war in Iraq. His answer was insightful, instructive and inspirational: "I would guess that if the opposition and division at home go on a lot longer and get a lot deeper it might have some effect, but, Senator, my Marines are motivated by their devotion to each other and the cause, not by political debates."
    Thank you, General. That is a powerful, needed message for the rest of America and its political leadership at this critical moment in our nation's history. Semper Fi.

    Mr. Lieberman is a Democratic senator from Connecticut.

    http://www.opinionjournal.com/editor...l?id=110007611

  2. #2
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    Re: JOE LIEBERMAN: OUR TROOPS Must STAY

    I am not surprised that it is NOT only the main-stream media ignoring this story. This guy is a former vice-presidential candidate whose opinions mean NOTHING when they stray from the company line! Awesome!

    According to the media, then, kanye wests opinions or cindy sheehans or alan freakin' aldas opinions are FAR more important than those of the good senator from Connecticut...got it. LOL

  3. #3
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    Re: JOE LIEBERMAN: OUR TROOPS Must STAY

    i never liked leiberwitz!!that stupid shreiky whiny voice!!i see he has placed himself on the "right" side with these remarks!!how fitting!!hehe!!isn't he a jew or sumthin!?if ya cant join em,...lick em!!lick it up!!lick it up!!,.... Oh!..Oh!..Oh!!hehe!! :eek: :p :rolleyes:

  4. #4
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    Re: JOE LIEBERMAN: OUR TROOPS Must STAY

    10 000 terrorists? Pwrone, are you an idiot!?! Don't you see what's wrong with this picture? You mean to tell me that Bush has managed to piss off 10 000 people to the point where they're willing to give their lives to kill people?

    This is sheer idiocy. What will it be next year? 20 000? Hey, when you run short, just keep upping the civilian casualties, which of course will continue to remain censored and uncared for by "patriots" like Pwrone. Hypocrites.

    And it's good that we discuss this at scam.com, because this war is a scam against the American people. You just fund the propaganda machine to stir a sort of feeling of angry patriotism that gets people to ignore that the level of debt they are in is so severe that when divided equally, each citizen owes at least $20 000. American citizens pay to have things blown up, then they pay to have it re-built, and corporations like Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, and Halliburton walk away with billions.

    Thank you, Pwrone. Without people like you, the next Great Depression would not be possible.

    And I'm sick and tired of this BS "Kiss the soldier's ass" contest between Dems and Repubs, as if it proves the validity of this war or not.

    P.S. I'm glad you've been re-instated on this forum.


    - Ronald
    Last edited by Ronald; 12-01-2005 at 09:46 AM.

  5. #5
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    Re: JOE LIEBERMAN: OUR TROOPS Must STAY

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald
    10 000 terrorists? Pwrone, are you an idiot!?! Don't you see what's wrong with this picture? You mean to tell me that Bush has managed to piss off 10 000 people to the point where they're willing to give their lives to kill people?

    This is sheer idiocy. What will it be next year? 20 000? Hey, when you run short, just keep upping the civilian casualties, which of course will continue to remain censored and uncared for by "patriots" like Pwrone. Hypocrites.

    And it's good that we discuss this at scam.com, because this war is a scam against the American people. You just fund the propaganda machine to stir a sort of feeling of angry patriotism that gets people to ignore that the level of debt they are in is so severe that when divided equally, each citizen owes at least $20 000. American citizens pay to have things blown up, then they pay to have it re-built, and corporations like Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, and Halliburton walk away with billions.

    Thank you, Pwrone. Without people like you, the next Great Depression would not be possible.

    And I'm sick and tired of this BS "Kiss the soldier's ass" contest between Dems and Repubs, as if it proves the validity of this war or not.

    P.S. I'm glad you've been re-instated on this forum.


    - Ronald



    Um......the article posted was written by Joseph Lieberman, Democratic senator from Connecticut, former vice-presidential candidate. And many of the terrorists are angry members of saddams ousted government. They will eventually be killed or discouraged and Iraq will become a stable, successful member of the world community. As always, your comments on American politics are entertaining and most welcome. I know it can be boring in Canada where there is never any political strife...oh, wait...um..yeeah...sorry.

  6. #6
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    Re: JOE LIEBERMAN: OUR TROOPS Must STAY

    Quote Originally Posted by pwrone
    Um......the article posted was written by Joseph Lieberman, Democratic senator from Connecticut, former vice-presidential candidate. And many of the terrorists are angry members of saddams ousted government. They will eventually be killed or discouraged and Iraq will become a stable, successful member of the world community. As always, your comments on American politics are entertaining and most welcome. I know it can be boring in Canada where there is never any political strife...oh, wait...um..yeeah...sorry.
    That's a racist thing to say: "I know things can be boring in Canada."

    And I am not afraid. Nazism, too, rose up quickly and fell as well. Corruption cannot stand long, because God is just.

    And whether the enemy is Syria, Jordan, Hez Bolah, Iraq, Iran, Al-Qaida, insurgents, or whatever, I know the truth is that Bush and his business associates are every day grateful for them, for it justifies their war profiteering. And I will never be silent on the issue, never stand down to your hatred and heartlessness towards casualties of war. Count on it.


    - Ronald

  7. #7
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    Re: JOE LIEBERMAN: OUR TROOPS Must STAY

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald
    That's a racist thing to say: "I know things can be boring in Canada."

    And I am not afraid. Nazism, too, rose up quickly and fell as well. Corruption cannot stand long, because God is just.

    And whether the enemy is Syria, Jordan, Hez Bolah, Iraq, Iran, Al-Qaida, insurgents, or whatever, I know the truth is that Bush and his business associates are every day grateful for them, for it justifies their war profiteering. And I will never be silent on the issue, never stand down to your hatred and heartlessness towards casualties of war. Count on it.


    - Ronald

    Just a couple of things...Canadians are not a "race"--other than european, the nazis fell because we felled them--they did not just go away, they had to be 'discouraged' militarily(your country was even involved, and they were using GUNS to do it), and it doesn't matter what Canadians think about terrorism-- they will always be protected by the U.S. and so they can afford to be as critical as they want, even while their own government is in shambles. Anytime you want to point your finger angrily at military operations by the U.S. , you may assume that I, too, "will never be silent on the issue. Count on it."

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    Re: JOE LIEBERMAN: OUR TROOPS Must STAY

    Quote Originally Posted by pwrone
    There are many more cars on the streets, satellite television dishes on the roofs, and literally millions more cell phones in Iraqi hands than before. All of that says the Iraqi economy is growing.

    It is a war between 27 million and 10,000; 27 million Iraqis who want to live lives of freedom, opportunity and prosperity and roughly 10,000 terrorists who are either Saddam revanchists, Iraqi Islamic extremists or al Qaeda foreign fighters who know their wretched causes will be set back if Iraq becomes free and modern.
    I didn't really bother to read the whole thing... but who do you think the Iraqi people are paying to get those phones, cars, and sattelite dishes? Other Iraqi people? *laugh*

    I find it kind of hard to swallow those statistics? 10,000 terrorists? Is there some office in Iraq where all the "terrorists" go to a computer and enter their names into the database and are given terrorist I.D. cards and the total number of members are kept track of?
    Last edited by idshadow; 12-02-2005 at 05:18 AM.

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    Re: JOE LIEBERMAN: OUR TROOPS Must STAY

    Quote Originally Posted by idshadow
    I didn't really bother to read the whole thing... but who do you think the Iraqi people are paying to get those phones, cars, and sattelite dishes? Other Iraqi people? *laugh*

    I find it kind of hard to swallow those statistics? 10,000 terrorists? Is there some office in Iraq where all the "terrorists" go to a computer and enter their names into the database and are given terrorist I.D. cards and the total number of members are kept track of?
    Before you go off assuming it is not the Iraqi's selling to Iraqi's you might want to do a quick Google Search.

    Car Sales Story
    Cell Phone Companies and coverage
    Satellite Dishes
    Last edited by RegulationE; 12-02-2005 at 05:39 AM.

  10. #10
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    Re: JOE LIEBERMAN: OUR TROOPS Must STAY

    Quote Originally Posted by pwrone
    Just a couple of things...Canadians are not a "race"--other than european, the nazis fell because we felled them--they did not just go away, they had to be 'discouraged' militarily(your country was even involved, and they were using GUNS to do it), and it doesn't matter what Canadians think about terrorism-- they will always be protected by the U.S. and so they can afford to be as critical as they want, even while their own government is in shambles. Anytime you want to point your finger angrily at military operations by the U.S. , you may assume that I, too, "will never be silent on the issue. Count on it."
    First off, Canadians are a race of people. We may be very multi-cutural, but nonetheless have had to put up with racist comments and slurs for too long. You would never hear me say: "Americans are stupid.", just that you are.

    Second, America didn't enter the war against Nazism until Japan forced it to. For 2 years it watched Canada fight it as the American government tried to figure out what side was more profitable to join.

    And you know what, I am not going to let people like you turn opposition to the war in Iraq as opposition to the military itself. The American military is involved in many other peace keeping campaigns all over the world. But as long as people like you don't care about how many people have died as a result of this invasion, then you are immoral, and you don't have a leg to stand on. You sweep these murdered people under the rug and just say: "Elections make up for it."

    How many have died, Pwrone? 100 000? 200 000? One million? Whose counting? When will President Bush ever uncensensor the number?


    - Ronald

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    Re: JOE LIEBERMAN: OUR TROOPS Must STAY

    See, one of the nice things 'aboot' being Canadian is that when you say something so stupid, so offensive, so specifically designed to provoke a violent response....everyone just relaxes and says" well, he's Canadian...it's okay..." LOL.

    You are not a 'race' you are caucasion...look it up. You are a country most noted for John Candy and the band Rush....oh, and that chick that howls...Morrisette? You have never been the target of terrorists because no one would care. Just America. Your governmental system will eventually fail(as we speak?) and you are going to experience, at some point , societal punishment for your socialist treatment of immigration. Just like france, who you have the most in common with. Just like france, no matter how dependent you are on the might of the United States, you will still take your cheap shots every chance you get. As long as you understand that if you are ever attacked by terrorists it will be the U.S. who takes care of business...Of course, if you are ever attacked it will be simply to irritate us, so I guess we should clean up.

    You have got some balls writing this:For 2 years it watched Canada fight it as the American government tried to figure out what side was more profitable to join.

    Perhaps a brief look through our histories will enlighten you. Take a look at what each of our countries have brought the world in terms of progress, invention, innovation, culture ,music, arts and sports...see how we stack up.

  12. #12
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    Re: JOE LIEBERMAN: OUR TROOPS Must STAY

    Quote Originally Posted by pwrone
    See, one of the nice things 'aboot' being Canadian is that when you say something so stupid, so offensive, so specifically designed to provoke a violent response....everyone just relaxes and says" well, he's Canadian...it's okay..." LOL.

    You are not a 'race' you are caucasion...look it up. You are a country most noted for John Candy and the band Rush....oh, and that chick that howls...Morrisette? You have never been the target of terrorists because no one would care. Just America. Your governmental system will eventually fail(as we speak?) and you are going to experience, at some point, societal punishment for your socialist treatment of immigration. Just like france, who you have the most in common with. Just like france, no matter how dependent you are on the might of the United States, you will still take your cheap shots every chance you get. As long as you understand that if you are ever attacked by terrorists it will be the U.S. who takes care of business...Of course, if you are ever attacked it will be simply to irritate us, so I guess we should clean up.

    You have got some balls writing this:For 2 years it watched Canada fight it as the American government tried to figure out what side was more profitable to join.

    Perhaps a brief look through our histories will enlighten you. Take a look at what each of our countries have brought the world in terms of progress, invention, innovation, culture ,music, arts and sports...see how we stack up.
    Where to begin...

    I'm not caucasian. And in Toronto, it is said by 2017 that one-sixth of its population will be Caucasion, and the rest not.

    First off, America does not protect Canada, but does the opposite. Remember the terrorist attack against the subway system in Spain? As soon as they pulled out of the coalition, the attacks stopped. So frankly, I find that being next to you guys to be more dangerous than anything, what with the country being so targetted. I just hope the terrorists don't figure out what good economic partners we are.

    And your understanding of the Canadian economy and our impact on the world doesn't seem to go much beyond celebrity. I'd make some wise crack here, but to be fair it's an honest and common mistake.

    And your comment on punishment for our immigration policy is laughable. A lot of our talent comes from overseas, and we're happy to snag it when possible. My grandparents immigrated here, and I'm so fortunate that they did. I love this country and this city. It's home.


    - Ronald
    Last edited by Ronald; 12-02-2005 at 01:13 PM.

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    Re: JOE LIEBERMAN: OUR TROOPS Must STAY

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald
    So frankly, I find that being next to you guys to be more dangerous than anything, what with the country being so targetted.

    And your comment on punishment for our immigration policy is laughable. A lot of our talent comes from overseas, and we're happy to snag it when possible. My grandparents immigrated here, and I'm so fortunate that they did. I love this country and this city. It's home.
    I can agree with that statement, cause we most likely are targeted by terrorists solely due to the fact that America likes to play decision maker in Middle Eastern disputes among each other. Like Chavez says, it's American Imperialism.


    And about the getting talent from overseas, America does the same ****, except they just wanna steal the scientists and richer people. They always like to tell the rest to "go back to your country" or "if you don't like it, go live somewhere else".

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    Re: JOE LIEBERMAN: OUR TROOPS Must STAY

    And I have a feeling those Iraqi businessmen, after taking all the life savings of the majority of the country (families are pooling together all they have just to get 1 car to share among several families... wonder how well that's gonna work out), and then go buy themselves some American/European/Japanese cars, or probably just move to another country to enjoy their newfound wealth.

    I highly doubt most of that money is going to go back into the Iraqi economy. Even the articles you linked just show how they're getting goods from other countries. What's to keep the money coming back into the country?

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    Re: JOE LIEBERMAN: OUR TROOPS Must STAY

    Quote Originally Posted by pwrone
    And many of the terrorists are angry members of saddams ousted government. They will eventually be killed or discouraged and Iraq will become a stable, successful member of the world community.
    You are an idiot. You do not even know who the enemy is anymore. Ousted members of Saddam's government? What about Osama Bin Laden's terrorists that caused 9/11? What he one of those "ousted members"?

    That dumb article you posted states that there are 10 000 terrorists in Iraq. That's how good Bush is at making enemies. He will never be in shortage until you realize that your dumb idea of patriotism has put you, and every man, woman, and child in your country in $20 000 of debt each, at least. You're being scammed, which is fine with me, except it's at the expense of over 100 000 Iraqi lives.

    You are fooled into thinking that this war will only last ten or twenty years. It is unending. As long as your murder civilians, you breed 10 000 such evil terrorists, which is Bush's intention to keep the scam going. Behind all his noble sounding speeches, notice how it is the American people who pay for the war, and Bush's associates who are taking the money and becoming insanely rich. If their hearts were truly in the cause, Halliburton would not walk away with billions of dollars in profit. They would re-invest it in the war effort, like so much of your tax dollars. You've been had, angry pwrone.

    I'm sick and tired of hearing Rush Limbaugh perpetuate the myth that if we pulled out today that Iraq would turn into a bloodbath - like that's not what it is and will be for the next ten years. Idiocy.

    This idea that winning the war against an unidentifyable enemy in Iraq, that it will reform the whole Middle East, is no difference than Hitler's, Caesar's, or Napolean's quest for global domination. It is only held intact by force, which you can only keep up for so long.

    Iraqi democracy will ultimately fail for solely this reason - the Iraqis didn't build it. It was built by the American military. You can't expect the Iraqis to hold up what they didn't build in the first place. America, a country that is said to value independence, now makes other civilizations depend on them.

    The Iraqi security forces will never, EVER, be able to defend their own country the way the American military can. It's an unrealistic goal, that these poor people can somehow fend themselves against 10 000 terrorists, as Pwrone's article states there is.

    But the core problem of it all is this - intentions. No system, no idea, nothing good can come if what's in your heart is not good. We inherit a death culture.


    - Ronald
    Last edited by Ronald; 12-03-2005 at 01:52 PM.

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    Re: JOE LIEBERMAN: OUR TROOPS Must STAY

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald
    You are an idiot. You do not even know who the enemy is anymore. Ousted members of Saddam's government? What about Osama Bin Laden's terrorists that caused 9/11? What he one of those "ousted members"?

    That dumb article you posted states that there are 10 000 terrorists in Iraq. That's how good Bush is at making enemies. He will never be in shortage until you realize that your dumb idea of patriotism has put you, and every man, woman, and child in your country in $20 000 of debt each, at least. You're being scammed, which is fine with me, except it's at the expense of over 100 000 Iraqi lives.

    You are fooled into thinking that this war will only last ten or twenty years. It is unending. As long as your murder civilians, you breed 10 000 such evil terrorists, which is Bush's intention to keep the scam going. Behind all his noble sounding speeches, notice how it is the American people who pay for the war, and Bush's associates who are taking the money and becoming insanely rich. If their hearts were truly in the cause, Halliburton would not walk away with billions of dollars in profit. They would re-invest it in the war effort, like so much of your tax dollars. You've been had, angry pwrone.


    - Ronald

    Ah...no. But thanks for your concern. The "dumb article" I posted was, I repeat once again, written by a United States senator who has been to Iraq and seen firsthand what we are accomplishing over there. Where did you come up with 100,000 dead? Most agree that it is closer to 25,000, a large enough number.

    You don't like it when your country is criticized, do you? ESPECIALLY by someone who doesn't even live there.

    The United States has been the most important country of the last few hundred years, the leaders and innovators in every measurable category. Canada, on the other hand, has maintained it's rather charming irrelevence.

    You have repeatedly demonstrated an astounding, almost willful, lack of knowledge or historical perspective regarding MY country. So you may, at your leisure, stick it.

    No comment on the recent 'activity' in YOUR government? I thought not.
    Last edited by pwrone; 12-03-2005 at 02:02 PM.

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