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  1. #1
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    A Message to this Forum

    Someone, I think it was bairdi, noticed that I had been getting a bit more shrill than usual with some of my postings before my banishment. What was happening was that I was reading a couple of books about the World Trade Center attacks. These books 'At Ground Zero' and 'Never Forget', are recommended reading, particularly 'Never Forget'. These are first-person accounts of 9-11 written by those that were there. Many of the details are not public knowledge, but should be. Our verminous media has been kind enough to shelter us from the results of attacks by our enemies, yet gleefully report any tiny rumour as fact concerning actions by our own soldiers(and only if they are of a negative nature). So when I read stories about how we blew up our own towers or lied to make war or other stupid allegations, I get a bit...upset. Then I was signing in here and letting these feelings color my posts. I have no feelings about any posters here, besides affection for some . I never intend to direct actual animosity toward anyone who posts here...why would I? I do not know you. I can not concieve of a situation where I would want someone banned...I have been threatened and called every name in the book and some that are not. If I don't want to read or respond to something, I don't. I do not confuse members of this forum with maggot politicians or media scum.



    The worst thing experienced by the people on the ground at the WTC, it is agreed, were the jumpers. People, some holding hands, jumping ONE HUNDRED FLOORS to their deaths. More than 1000 feet...it is incomprehensible. The most famous death on the ground was that of FDNY chaplain Mychal Judge. He was attending to dead jumpers when he was struck and killed by one. Everyone agrees that the sound of a human body hitting concrete after falling 1000 feet is similar to a gunshot. Entails and brains were sprayed in chunks on to windows that people were looking through. No one can say how many jumped but it seems that at least 50 people met their death this way.

    When the coroners and forensic people were attempting to identify bodies, an unbelievably difficult task, they were confronted by unusual challenges. For instance, in many cases, only a face was available to them. Just a face. Many times when moving bodies, the head would come apart and the brain would roll out the back. So they would spread out the face as flat as possible. Can you imagine asking a family member to try to identify a face? Neither can I. Many hundreds of bodies simply vaporized. Pieces of civilians were found hundreds of feet away, in the street or in the grass or in a fountain. Imagine the finest medical and dental forensic professionals in the country looking at a single tooth, trying to determine where in the country or the world the work was done.

    We did not "deserve" these attacks. We were not attacked because of anything we did, we were attacked because of what we represent. We have been repeatedly attacked by the same groups. Islamic terrorists(Radical Islam) want to kill us because if our way of life -democracy- continues to grow in the world, there will eventually be no place for their cruel and failed interpretation of religion to thrive. It will eventually die out, as it should.

    It is essential to discern the differences between Muslims and Islamic fanatics. If we do not care enough to identify the enemy, why should we expect help from those within the same religion ? Members of the media who refuse to identify Islamic terrorists in stories do us, and ordinary Muslims, a disservice. We need the help of Muslim communities to rid the earth of these creatures. There is no reason for their existence. There is not one good thing they do or represent. They protect no one and stand for nothing. They simply make war on civilians.

    Ordinary Muslims overseas have not, until recently, cared too much about our war against terrorists. They view the culture that we(hollywood) export as so evil and disgusting, so reprehensibly devoid of any kind of morality, that it is as much a threat to their way of life as are suicide bombers. If you were a Muslim father, how would you feel if an MTV video, almost ANY MTV video, was shown to your child? Probably even worse than I do.

    The Bush Doctrine can work and we should pray that it does. The idea of fighting the enemy on their turf has been costly but, considering the alternative, preferable. People seem to think that there is an inexhaustable supply of Al-Q maniacs ready to die for their 95 virgins. It just isn't true. We have killed terrorists by the thousands and they are losing. They are losing the P.R. campaign as well. Contrary to what Murtha claims, the Iraqi people, and the innocent civilians of other countries, are the targets and the victims of these scum. There will eventually be no country that will tolerate their training camps or their presence. Those that do must be crushed, economically or otherwise, by any and all means available.

    In this world, there is "Good" and there is "Evil". Those who do not believe in God may have difficulty with the concept, but to me it is not a religious idea. It is something that can be defined by actions, and I would never live in a country that I considered to be evil. To those who think of us as the evil-doers or deserving of attack, I would respectfully ask why they stay. I wouldn't.

    We are, and will continue to be, the most benevolent superpower in the history of the world. It is perhaps inevitable that our position at the top of the food chain will slip, but I think that may be due as much to Chinas prodigious breeding habits, worker subjugation, and blatant historical intentions as it is to any flaw in our model. Regardless of our long-term prospects in the top slot, we have been the most successful society ever. We have not attempted to 'take over the world' as every lone power has done as long as time has been recorded. If we ceased to exist today, we would be the model of national success forever.


    Story after story of ordinary people acting heroically under extraordinary circumstances. Firefighters climbing stairs to CERTAIN death. The mayor and other leaders in actual deadly jeopardy. Read 'Never Forget'. Understand who the enemy is and why they must be killed. Be proud of your country no matter who is in the White House. There will never be another one like it.

  2. #2
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    Re: A Message to this Forum

    Hello Pwrone,

    OK, I have read your message. A lot of what you write is true for you. There is also another side to the story. I have said this before and I will say it in the future, nothing happens in a vacuum. Nothing is black and white, either/or. Since you are willing to read a nonfiction book on the subject of September 11, 2001, are you willing to read other accounts of the day, from a different perspective?

    While many Americans express their grief/anger/rage/heartache/heartbreak/disbelieve/fear, they still ask the question, why?

    These same Americans who desire revenge, retribution, justice, with an emotional force no one can imagine, also call for understanding?

    At the same moment some Americans who are crying for their loss, and burying their dead, are saying to their friends, neighbors and elected officials, shed no blood in our name.

    Can I ask you to read the articles in this link, and open your mind the way I have, and will continue to open mine?

    http://www.southernstudies.org/reports/potorti.htm

    http://www.peacefultomorrows.org/index.php

    http://www.peacefultomorrows.org/article.php?id=601


    DeeDee1965

    By the way, it is good to talk to you again.:)

  3. #3
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    Re: A Message to this Forum

    Very inspirational post. Welcome back. I'm saddened to think that it will take actual beheadings on this soil for some people of this nation to understand what is really going on in the present conflict. War is not time for the weak and the timid to reign power or be allowed decision making capability. I am slowly coming around to the theory that this IS a holy war. Not the Crusades or anything like that, but the opposite. The plan of our enemy is to infiltrate and politically gain a foothold until the time of reckoning. "Hotel Rawanda" may be a good account of what will eventually happen here if the enemies are left unabated. They are actually not here to be a part of many religions, but in fact, are here to be the dominant religion. Just ask the founders of C.A.I.R.. When we show weakness, we will be advantaged. Weakness never stopped any war, only invited them.

    Good to see you posting again, the originality in your post was very good. :cool:

  4. #4
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    Re: A Message to this Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee1965
    Hello Pwrone,

    OK, I have read your message. A lot of what you write is true for you. There is also another side to the story. I have said this before and I will say it in the future, nothing happens in a vacuum. Nothing is black and white, either/or. Since you are willing to read a nonfiction book on the subject of September 11, 2001, are you willing to read other accounts of the day, from a different perspective?

    While many Americans express their grief/anger/rage/heartache/heartbreak/disbelieve/fear, they still ask the question, why?

    These same Americans who desire revenge, retribution, justice, with an emotional force no one can imagine, also call for understanding?

    At the same moment some Americans who are crying for their loss, and burying their dead, are saying to their friends, neighbors and elected officials, shed no blood in our name.

    Can I ask you to read the articles in this link, and open your mind the way I have, and will continue to open mine?

    http://www.southernstudies.org/reports/potorti.htm

    http://www.peacefultomorrows.org/index.php

    http://www.peacefultomorrows.org/article.php?id=601


    DeeDee1965

    By the way, it is good to talk to you again.:)


    It is good to talk to you as well, DeeDee.

    I am familiar with many of these groups and I encourage them to heal themselves any way possible. But there is something here that it is important to understand. Please look at this passage:
    _________________________________________________
    At his daughter’s memorial service on September 21, which was Bodley’s birthday--he told the San Francisco Chronicle, "We must not retaliate in kind as if our cause allows us to." Of the name of America's new mission, dubbed the day before as, "Operation Infinite Justice," he said it "frightens me more than the terrorist attacks. I shudder to think they chose it because they think God is on their side. That is what terrorists think."
    __________________________________________________ _______


    When anyone says something like that, they have become an passive, but no less real, part of the problem.


    You can call it anything you want...I personally reject "revenge" or "vengeance" or even "justice" in favor of words more necessary and less emotional...words like "protection" and "preservation". Even if we extrapolated infinitely (and to no purpose) about eliminating our involvement in any Mid-eastern affair of any kind, ever, it still does not mean they would not attack us. We are a Christian country...that alone is worth killing to them. They have chopped heads off Christian children all over the world just in the last week(thanks to our media, you probably know nothing of these horrendous crimes). It is the kind of thing they do and have done for centuries. It is not as though Christians have not made war on them as well, it is just that it does not matter. Whatever WE do, including and especially nothing, will not make them stop wanting to kill us.

    It is utterly irresponsible to do nothing. Give fat-boy a pass on the many attacks he ignored during the 90's if you want, but if Bush had not done what he did following the utter destruction of a key symbol of America and 3000 of our own , there would have been an anti-government movement the likes of which democrats can scarcely dream. To make it difficult for terrorists to attack should- must- be the primary goal of any free government. The best way, the very best way, is to kill as many of them as possible.

    Terrorists will not continue to enjoy unlimited hospitality in the Middle-East. The reason we have had so much success recently is because citizens are not protecting them as much. This trend will continue. We have identified and eliminated countless key personnel in many different countries and will continue to do so. Maniacs can never be completely eradicated, but terror attacks like the ones we and others have suffered must be rendered nearly impossible. Without key leadership, without money, without training areas and access to churches for recruitment purposes...in short, without cooperation from governments, these vermin will be rendered nearly meaningless.

  5. #5
    coontie is offline Vashudeva; Ferryman - doing the work...
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    Re: A Message to this Forum

    Pwrone, Raider: I share much of your feelings, sentiments in your post
    #1,490 Pwrone, and your post #774 Raider. I feel your pain and as a
    fellow american it is very difficult to get past the times surrounding 9/11
    ad other terrorist acts.
    Raider, in your post you said something like: "to show weakness is an
    advantage... I think you meant disadvantage. Which is very true. These
    people are very savage and radical and they are definitely of the type
    that intend to prosecute the religion of Islam on the world. There may be
    some muslims that, as individuals are willing to practice religious tolerance,
    but not these fanatics. They could be reigned in by their Imams; ministers,
    but most of the Imams desire the power, prestige and wealth that they
    see ever more forthcoming, as their doctrine is spread across the world.
    Has any one noticed through all of this that, I don't recall hearing of,
    any of the Muslim Imams either in the U.S. or in foreign countries
    speaking out against these rerrrorist acts?
    It is a toss up when we'll clear out of Iraq and from a a civil and humane
    standpoint I don't think there will be any time within the next 20 years,
    if we were willing to stick it out that long.
    But, we have to go and disengaging, at anytime will not be the right
    time. I recall the disengagement from Vietnam. This will be even more
    difficult. And there will be a lot of Iraqis that will want to come and
    be here, rather than to live in the Hell that is to come there.
    In any event, we cannot afford many more, I would say, rather, no more
    Iraqs Or Afghanistans. We have been hurt badly there in quite a few
    ways, but we are still a very formidable force to deal with and our
    military is the best in the world.
    But, we need to pull back, regroup, build up and prepare for what is to
    come here in our own land. I think folks like you two, at least, get the
    drift of what is in store for us. It isn't going to be left up to our military
    to soley protect us. Many of us will become the Insurgents in our
    own cities and towns and on our streets. It isn't going to be nice or
    pretty, or civil, for that matter!
    Bless you...
    Last edited by coontie; 11-28-2005 at 04:29 AM. Reason: wording

  6. #6
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    Re: A Message to this Forum

    The academic part of the right to bear arms debate is about done I think.

  7. #7
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    Re: A Message to this Forum

    Pwrone,

    Welcome back, you post is very straight forward and non threatening. Hope to read more like them.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee1965
    OK, I have read your message. A lot of what you write is true for you. There is also another side to the story. I have said this before and I will say it in the future, nothing happens in a vacuum. Nothing is black and white, either/or. Since you are willing to read a nonfiction book on the subject of September 11, 2001, are you willing to read other accounts of the day, from a different perspective?
    DeeDee1965,

    You sound like someone who is very much like my mother, who I have the utmost respect for. She and I have had debates that would make those on this forum look like child's play over the subject of National Security going back some 20 years.

    While she and I disagree most of the time on the "How" we agree completely on the "End Result" and from what I have read of your posts, you and most of the conservative posters here probably also agree on what the end result should be. Just going out on a limb and taking a wild guess.

    I have read through the first two links and will read over the third one before the night is over. Something that caught my attention on the Peaceful Tomorrows web site was the lead headline; "Top Dem Calls for Immediate Iraq Pullout". I watched and listened tot he debate in the house over the vote to immediately pull out of Iraq. I disagree with Murtha's opinion, and I also believe he is being blamed for something he did not exactly say. But when his supporters are quoting his comments incorrectly, it does make his job that much harder to accomplish.

    I believe that there are times for peaceful negotiations and there are times you have to put your money where your mouth is so to speak. I respect David Potorti’s position even while disagreeing with it. It is interesting to note that his group has 50 core members. 50 out of almost 3000 families who suffered loses is not even a large minority. Our country was built on doing what the majority of the people want, and while it may be said it is very questionable what the majority want right now regarding Iraq, we need strong men and women that will commit to a job the majority felt needed done once it is started even after the novelty of it wears off.

    Potorti complained about the main stream media, and how it is controlled by corporate giants. I have that same complaint. The FCC is simply killing one of my businesses through rulings that benefit only the giant phone companies and no one else, including the customer. I have been called a brainless monkey on this site because my views differ from many here. The truth is there is not a single governing body that will make each of us happy 100% of the time or even the majority of the time most likely. I hate this administration for what it is doing to broadband availability to the rural parts of this country. The FCC chairman was appointed by non other then George W Bush. But in regards to what we are doing to fight terrorism, I agree mostly that we are doing what we can with what we have to go on.

    I remember the cold war, wondering if today is the day someone finally loses it and pushes the button on one side or the other. I have lived most of my life in a top ten target area, so even if it had happened, I would not likely know much about it. The cold war ended because we stood strong, flexed our muscle and convinced the opposition we where willing to use the weapons at hand. Our country became "soft" in the years that followed the fall of the Soviet Union. We tried for 8 years to simply use diplomatic means to protect our shores and the human interests abroad. This did not protect us, it did not stop the terrorists from hating us and attacking us.

    If I had been planning the response to 9/11, it would not have likely unfolded the way it has. Afghanistan was a no brainer, go in take care of shutting the Taliban adown and eliminating the terrorist camps. If I was going to focus my justice on Osama Bin Laden, I would have continued to track his every move from Afghanistan until he was caught, killed, or handed over by a foreign government. The chances are pretty good we would be in Syria or Pakistan now instead of Iraq, but regardless we would likely be somewhere else fighting a war like the one in Iraq. I would be seen by some as the war monger, and I would be seen by others as a leader who was going to do what he started out to do.

    With that said, I do not fault our President for doing the things he has done leading up to today regarding his choice as to how best to fight this war on terror. I did not agree with Clinton's action in Afghanistan, Yugoslavia, or Iraq for that matter. But I did not stand on the roof top shouting that he was a liar, the scum of the earth, stupid, or anything else. I did more often then not refer to him as an immoral adulterous scum bag, but that was for other reasons :D My problem with Clinton’s actions in these countries was only that he did little more then throw a snowball at the opponent. Yugoslavia may be the exception.

    Yes we need to get out of Iraq, but not today or tomorrow. We simply can not leave the Iraqi government holding the ball without the resources necessary to continue to play the game.

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    Re: A Message to this Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by pwrone
    Someone, I think it was bairdi, noticed that I had been getting a bit more shrill than usual with some of my postings before my banishment. What was happening was that I was reading a couple of books about the World Trade Center attacks. These books 'At Ground Zero' and 'Never Forget', are recommended reading, particularly 'Never Forget'. These are first-person accounts of 9-11 written by those that were there. Many of the details are not public knowledge, but should be. Our verminous media has been kind enough to shelter us from the results of attacks by our enemies, yet gleefully report any tiny rumour as fact concerning actions by our own soldiers(and only if they are of a negative nature). So when I read stories about how we blew up our own towers or lied to make war or other stupid allegations, I get a bit...upset. Then I was signing in here and letting these feelings color my posts. I have no feelings about any posters here, besides affection for some . I never intend to direct actual animosity toward anyone who posts here...why would I? I do not know you. I can not concieve of a situation where I would want someone banned...I have been threatened and called every name in the book and some that are not. If I don't want to read or respond to something, I don't. I do not confuse members of this forum with maggot politicians or media scum.



    The worst thing experienced by the people on the ground at the WTC, it is agreed, were the jumpers. People, some holding hands, jumping ONE HUNDRED FLOORS to their deaths. More than 1000 feet...it is incomprehensible. The most famous death on the ground was that of FDNY chaplain Mychal Judge. He was attending to dead jumpers when he was struck and killed by one. Everyone agrees that the sound of a human body hitting concrete after falling 1000 feet is similar to a gunshot. Entails and brains were sprayed in chunks on to windows that people were looking through. No one can say how many jumped but it seems that at least 50 people met their death this way.

    When the coroners and forensic people were attempting to identify bodies, an unbelievably difficult task, they were confronted by unusual challenges. For instance, in many cases, only a face was available to them. Just a face. Many times when moving bodies, the head would come apart and the brain would roll out the back. So they would spread out the face as flat as possible. Can you imagine asking a family member to try to identify a face? Neither can I. Many hundreds of bodies simply vaporized. Pieces of civilians were found hundreds of feet away, in the street or in the grass or in a fountain. Imagine the finest medical and dental forensic professionals in the country looking at a single tooth, trying to determine where in the country or the world the work was done.

    We did not "deserve" these attacks. We were not attacked because of anything we did, we were attacked because of what we represent. We have been repeatedly attacked by the same groups. Islamic terrorists(Radical Islam) want to kill us because if our way of life -democracy- continues to grow in the world, there will eventually be no place for their cruel and failed interpretation of religion to thrive. It will eventually die out, as it should.

    It is essential to discern the differences between Muslims and Islamic fanatics. If we do not care enough to identify the enemy, why should we expect help from those within the same religion ? Members of the media who refuse to identify Islamic terrorists in stories do us, and ordinary Muslims, a disservice. We need the help of Muslim communities to rid the earth of these creatures. There is no reason for their existence. There is not one good thing they do or represent. They protect no one and stand for nothing. They simply make war on civilians.

    Ordinary Muslims overseas have not, until recently, cared too much about our war against terrorists. They view the culture that we(hollywood) export as so evil and disgusting, so reprehensibly devoid of any kind of morality, that it is as much a threat to their way of life as are suicide bombers. If you were a Muslim father, how would you feel if an MTV video, almost ANY MTV video, was shown to your child? Probably even worse than I do.

    The Bush Doctrine can work and we should pray that it does. The idea of fighting the enemy on their turf has been costly but, considering the alternative, preferable. People seem to think that there is an inexhaustable supply of Al-Q maniacs ready to die for their 95 virgins. It just isn't true. We have killed terrorists by the thousands and they are losing. They are losing the P.R. campaign as well. Contrary to what Murtha claims, the Iraqi people, and the innocent civilians of other countries, are the targets and the victims of these scum. There will eventually be no country that will tolerate their training camps or their presence. Those that do must be crushed, economically or otherwise, by any and all means available.

    In this world, there is "Good" and there is "Evil". Those who do not believe in God may have difficulty with the concept, but to me it is not a religious idea. It is something that can be defined by actions, and I would never live in a country that I considered to be evil. To those who think of us as the evil-doers or deserving of attack, I would respectfully ask why they stay. I wouldn't.

    We are, and will continue to be, the most benevolent superpower in the history of the world. It is perhaps inevitable that our position at the top of the food chain will slip, but I think that may be due as much to Chinas prodigious breeding habits, worker subjugation, and blatant historical intentions as it is to any flaw in our model. Regardless of our long-term prospects in the top slot, we have been the most successful society ever. We have not attempted to 'take over the world' as every lone power has done as long as time has been recorded. If we ceased to exist today, we would be the model of national success forever.


    Story after story of ordinary people acting heroically under extraordinary circumstances. Firefighters climbing stairs to CERTAIN death. The mayor and other leaders in actual deadly jeopardy. Read 'Never Forget'. Understand who the enemy is and why they must be killed. Be proud of your country no matter who is in the White House. There will never be another one like it.
    Well, welcome back you big lugg. :)
    This post is reflective of the kinder gentler pwrone and I can see that it is heartfelt. I believe your feelings about the attacks on 911 are shared across the spectrum of both left and right. Had we continued our pursuit of Osama and hunted him done in the name of justice, much of the disagreements on this board would not be taking place. It was the decision to invade Iraq that has caused the divergence between the liberals and the conservatives. Think about this for a second. If you were an ordinary joe living in Iraq, could you not also repeat the words that you applied to this country? "We did not "deserve" these attacks. We were not attacked because of anything we did, we were attacked because of what we represent."
    Last edited by bairdi; 11-28-2005 at 05:21 AM.

  9. #9
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    Re: A Message to this Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by bairdi
    Think about this for a second. If you were an ordinary joe living in Iraq, could you not also repeat the words that you applied to this country? "We did not "deserve" these attacks. We were not attacked because of anything we did, we were attacked because of what we represent."
    Not being an Iraqi, it is hard to answer your question. I will say that there are some in the country who could honestly say that and believe it. I would also believe, that many if no the majority of Iraqi people would see it a bit differently.

    I would suggest that these would be more likely the words appliedto this country.

    "We, the Iraqi people, did not "deserve" these attacks. We were not attacked because of anything we did, we were attacked because of our evil ruler."

    Might even be followed by something like this:

    "We are glad it was the American lead forces who are attacking our country because we know they are going after the leadership and not the people."

    Of course that is simply conjecture so no need anyone attacking my post for it ;)

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    Re: A Message to this Forum

    RegulationE and Pwrone,

    I hear you, and I am going to responde ASAP. :)

    DeeDee1965

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    Re: A Message to this Forum

    Hi Pwrone,

    At his daughter’s memorial service on September 21, which was Bodley’s birthday--he told the San Francisco Chronicle, "We must not retaliate in kind as if our cause allows us to." Of the name of America's new mission, dubbed the day before as, "Operation Infinite Justice," he said it "frightens me more than the terrorist attacks. I shudder to think they chose it because they think God is on their side. That is what terrorists think."
    __________________________________________________ _______

    Pwrone said: When anyone says something like that, they have become an passive, but no less real, part of the problem.
    While I respect your hurt, anger, and your sense of urgency in the need to protect and defend the US, your comment in regard to Mr. Bodley's above statement is inappropriate, unfair, and not true.

    Jesus said:
    "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. {Matthew 5:38-42}

    I think Mr. Bodley, and the 9/11 Families for Peaceful Tomorrow's, embodies this
    particular scripture. Please think about this Pwrone. I am done preaching. :rolleyes:


    You can call it anything you want...I personally reject "revenge" or "vengeance" or even "justice" in favor of words more necessary and less emotional...words like "protection" and "preservation". Even if we extrapolated infinitely (and to no purpose) about eliminating our involvement in any Mid-eastern affair of any kind, ever, it still does not mean they would not attack us. We are a Christian country...that alone is worth killing to them. They have chopped heads off Christian children all over the world just in the last week(thanks to our media, you probably know nothing of these horrendous crimes).It is the kind of thing they do and have done for centuries. It is not as though Christians have not made war on them as well, it is just that it does not matter. Whatever WE do, including and especially nothing, will not make them stop wanting to kill us.
    My Friend,

    This above quote, is not the whole history of East/West conflict for the last 2000 years. It is not as simple as you make it. The history is complex, long, and not over. To say, "We are a Christian country...and that alone is worth killing to them," is a statement that, to be quite honest, does not make much sense. It has no context. It is not true. But more importantly, it does not, address the *why* of the actions of terrorists. Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, Belgium, are "Christian" countries. They are not being attacked. So being "Christian" is not the reason for the attacks of September 11, 2001, I know I am not rebutting your statements directly, but hyperbole is hard to rebut.


    .....To make it difficult for terrorists to attack should- must- be the primary goal of any free government. The best way, the very best way, is to kill as many of them as possible
    A country, a government, a people, cannot kill as many terrorists as possible, and still think they can avoid attack. Making our borders safer, making immigration policy, efficient, effective, and thorough, and having excellent relationships with the rest of the world, will practically assure a safe secure country. I wish you could see this is as important as a strong military.

    As I have said before, working with the world community, treating other countries fairly, using diplomacy keeps any country relativley safe. No country in the history of the world has not been attacked, or had to fight wars, or defend themselves. But attacking a country that was not an imminent threat to the US, will not stop terrorist attacks. It will make more enemies, strain relations with our allies, and make it hard for the US to get cooperation from other countries, not yet allies.

    DeeDee1965

  12. #12
    coontie is offline Vashudeva; Ferryman - doing the work...
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    Re: A Message to this Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by CHARGER
    The academic part of the right to bear arms debate is about done I think.

    :confused: :confused: :confused: ...

    Please elaborate! :)
    Last edited by coontie; 11-28-2005 at 07:18 PM. Reason: spell

  13. #13
    coontie is offline Vashudeva; Ferryman - doing the work...
    Join Date
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    Re: A Message to this Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by RegulationE
    Pwrone,

    Welcome back, you post is very straight forward and non threatening. Hope to read more like them.



    DeeDee1965,

    You sound like someone who is very much like my mother, who I have the utmost respect for. She and I have had debates that would make those on this forum look like child's play over the subject of National Security going back some 20 years.

    While she and I disagree most of the time on the "How" we agree completely on the "End Result" and from what I have read of your posts, you and most of the conservative posters here probably also agree on what the end result should be. Just going out on a limb and taking a wild guess.

    I have read through the first two links and will read over the third one before the night is over. Something that caught my attention on the Peaceful Tomorrows web site was the lead headline; "Top Dem Calls for Immediate Iraq Pullout". I watched and listened tot he debate in the house over the vote to immediately pull out of Iraq. I disagree with Murtha's opinion, and I also believe he is being blamed for something he did not exactly say. But when his supporters are quoting his comments incorrectly, it does make his job that much harder to accomplish.

    I believe that there are times for peaceful negotiations and there are times you have to put your money where your mouth is so to speak. I respect David Potorti’s position even while disagreeing with it. It is interesting to note that his group has 50 core members. 50 out of almost 3000 families who suffered loses is not even a large minority. Our country was built on doing what the majority of the people want, and while it may be said it is very questionable what the majority want right now regarding Iraq, we need strong men and women that will commit to a job the majority felt needed done once it is started even after the novelty of it wears off.

    Potorti complained about the main stream media, and how it is controlled by corporate giants. I have that same complaint. The FCC is simply killing one of my businesses through rulings that benefit only the giant phone companies and no one else, including the customer. I have been called a brainless monkey on this site because my views differ from many here. The truth is there is not a single governing body that will make each of us happy 100% of the time or even the majority of the time most likely. I hate this administration for what it is doing to broadband availability to the rural parts of this country. The FCC chairman was appointed by non other then George W Bush. But in regards to what we are doing to fight terrorism, I agree mostly that we are doing what we can with what we have to go on.

    I remember the cold war, wondering if today is the day someone finally loses it and pushes the button on one side or the other. I have lived most of my life in a top ten target area, so even if it had happened, I would not likely know much about it. The cold war ended because we stood strong, flexed our muscle and convinced the opposition we where willing to use the weapons at hand. Our country became "soft" in the years that followed the fall of the Soviet Union. We tried for 8 years to simply use diplomatic means to protect our shores and the human interests abroad. This did not protect us, it did not stop the terrorists from hating us and attacking us.

    If I had been planning the response to 9/11, it would not have likely unfolded the way it has. Afghanistan was a no brainer, go in take care of shutting the Taliban adown and eliminating the terrorist camps. If I was going to focus my justice on Osama Bin Laden, I would have continued to track his every move from Afghanistan until he was caught, killed, or handed over by a foreign government. The chances are pretty good we would be in Syria or Pakistan now instead of Iraq, but regardless we would likely be somewhere else fighting a war like the one in Iraq. I would be seen by some as the war monger, and I would be seen by others as a leader who was going to do what he started out to do.

    With that said, I do not fault our President for doing the things he has done leading up to today regarding his choice as to how best to fight this war on terror. I did not agree with Clinton's action in Afghanistan, Yugoslavia, or Iraq for that matter. But I did not stand on the roof top shouting that he was a liar, the scum of the earth, stupid, or anything else. I did more often then not refer to him as an immoral adulterous scum bag, but that was for other reasons :D My problem with Clinton’s actions in these countries was only that he did little more then throw a snowball at the opponent. Yugoslavia may be the exception.

    Yes we need to get out of Iraq, but not today or tomorrow. We simply can not leave the Iraqi government holding the ball without the resources necessary to continue to play the game.

    sounds like a sane, rational and open-minded attitude and approach to
    the issues, overall. Not like some that seem to think that whoever is doing
    what, saying what, is their party individual, right or wrong and they go with
    him/her lock-stepped! THERE'S NO BLACK OR WHITE, most often a lot of
    grey areas to be dealt with. And it is always a hellish situation to be a
    leader; the "person of the hour", so to speak, on the spot, behind the
    eight-ball, whatever. Having to make decisions, give orders and take
    responsibility. It is always easier for the cat-callers and kabitizers on the
    side-lines that are often "do nothings", not taking responsibility all of
    their life that are so quick and willing to criticize and bring down.
    It is simply easy to see through the transparency of some of the ill-gotten
    "leaders" that we have seen some and go, bust most of them are people
    of good intentions and will that really desire to make a difference in a
    positive way for our nation. Problem is, the often do not know, realize
    what the've gotten theirself into until they find theirself in the middle
    of the foray. Then say to theiself: "how do I get out of this"...

    Kudos! :)
    Last edited by coontie; 11-28-2005 at 07:30 PM. Reason: word

  14. #14
    Join Date
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    12,866

    Re: A Message to this Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee1965
    Hi Pwrone,

    While I respect your hurt, anger, and your sense of urgency in the need to protect and defend the US, your comment in regard to Mr. Bodley's above statement is inappropriate, unfair, and not true.

    Jesus said:
    "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. {Matthew 5:38-42}

    I think Mr. Bodley, and the 9/11 Families for Peaceful Tomorrow's, embodies this
    particular scripture. Please think about this Pwrone. I am done preaching. :rolleyes:
    I just wanted to add one scripture as well:

    I think this also exemplifies what Mr. Bodley's comment meant.

    Matthew 5:43-45: Ye have heard that it hath been said, "Thou shalt love thy neighbour, "and hate thine enemy." But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.



    "When Jesus said love your enemies, he probably meant: don't kill them."


    Namaste'

    Lady Mod

  15. #15
    Join Date
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    633

    Re: A Message to this Forum

    While the passages you state from the bible are there, so are the ones with God leading man into battle.

  16. #16
    Join Date
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    Re: A Message to this Forum

    Quote Originally Posted by RegulationE
    While the passages you state from the bible are there, so are the ones with God leading man into battle.

    Ah, this is true. However, one only needs to read the battles in the bible to understand how they were won. :D

    Though the armies of Israel were armed with the conventional weapons of the day; swords and spears, etc., their enemies usually far outnumbered them and had superior military capabilities. So rather than have His children engage the enemy in traditional battle tactics, the Lord often worked in very mysterious ways, supernaturally fighting for and protecting His people.

    Maybe we should have walked around the country of Iraq seven times?

    Namaste'

    Lady Mod

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