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  1. #1
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    What position from your own political party you just don't get? What about the opposite pa

    By don't get I mean you hear the arguments, and either don't understand how they are arguing in good faith/dont understand how they cannot see the 'obvious' flaws in the argument, or don't understand why they care so much even if their arguments are true?
    Personally, as a democrat I don't understand the push for free college. I mean as an upper middle class white guy I can see how it would have helped me a lot, but I don't get it how people can't see that it isn't going to help the poor at all. Instead it will most likely limit enrollment to the most 'qualified' candidates, who are upper middle class - upper class kids with time to prepare.
    As far as Republicans: Immigration.
    At this point I think it is obvious that R voters don't just want to stop 'illegal' immigration, but want to see a slowdown in legal immigration, and seem to just have issues with people that don't look/act american. Why? How has this actually negatively affected you? If it's about preserving 'American Culture' why is the current iteration or our culture worth state sponsored protection? I get securing the borders, and enforcing laws, but I don't get why this of all things is a #1 issue.

  2. #2
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    Re: What position from your own political party you just don't get? What about the opposit

    As a conservative, I really hate the anti-environment sentiment of the right. I feel like keeping the planet safe and healthy should be a completely non-partisan issue

  3. #3
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    Re: What position from your own political party you just don't get? What about the opposit

    Quote Originally Posted by Aidan View Post
    As a conservative, I really hate the anti-environment sentiment of the right. I feel like keeping the planet safe and healthy should be a completely non-partisan issue
    It's frustrating as someone who, in a normal US political climate, is an independent with some liberal tendencies, sees how transparently money driven politicians environmental views are.

  4. #4
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    Re: What position from your own political party you just don't get? What about the opposit

    Quote Originally Posted by Kayden View Post
    It's frustrating as someone who, in a normal US political climate, is an independent with some liberal tendencies, sees how transparently money driven politicians environmental views are.
    This is the most important point. I think the two keys to solving so many of the problems in American politics are 1) Implementing Congressional term limits and 2) Campaign finance reform such that big donors on either side of the aisle have less influence

  5. #5
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    Re: What position from your own political party you just don't get? What about the opposit

    That's what I've always said to my conservative friends. I can totally understand if someone thinks abortion is murder. I don't agree with them, but I understand why they think that. But I will never understand why they are ok with it in cases of rape or incest. You either think it's murder, or you don't. I lose all respect for your abortion beliefs of you have these exceptions.Having said that, I do understand life of the mother exceptions. Those make sense.

  6. #6
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    Re: What position from your own political party you just don't get? What about the opposit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryder View Post
    That's what I've always said to my conservative friends. I can totally understand if someone thinks abortion is murder. I don't agree with them, but I understand why they think that. But I will never understand why they are ok with it in cases of rape or incest. You either think it's murder, or you don't. I lose all respect for your abortion beliefs of you have these exceptions.Having said that, I do understand life of the mother exceptions. Those make sense.


    In the US, there is no defense to murder in order to save a life, unless the person you murder is directly threatening you or someone else. Maybe the pro-lifers feel different in a moral sense, but legally, duress is not a defense to murder.

  7. #7
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    Re: What position from your own political party you just don't get? What about the opposit

    Quote Originally Posted by Kayden View Post

    In the US, there is no defense to murder in order to save a life, unless the person you murder is directly threatening you or someone else. Maybe the pro-lifers feel different in a moral sense, but legally, duress is not a defense to murder.
    Maybe I'm not understanding you, but you seem to be saying completely opposite things to me. You say duress isn't a defense, and then say that it is by saying your life is in danger.

  8. #8
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    Re: What position from your own political party you just don't get? What about the opposit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryder View Post
    Maybe I'm not understanding you, but you seem to be saying completely opposite things to me. You say duress isn't a defense, and then say that it is by saying your life is in danger.

    I'm also pro choice and don't consider it murder but I'll try to clear up the confusion from my reply:
    Some pro-lifers think that murder of an innocent is okay if it saves the life of someone else (the mother.)
    That is not a legal defense in the US. Imagine a situation where Person A points a gun at Person B and says "go kill Person C. He didn't do anything wrong, but he looked at me weird so I want him dead. If you don't do it, I will kill you." Legally, if Person B kills Person C, they will be guilty of murder. B can kill A and it is self defense or they can refuse to do it, be killed and then A will be guilty of murder. This only applies to murder. If A told B to go rob a bank instead, it would be a defense to the crime of bank robbery.

  9. #9
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    Re: What position from your own political party you just don't get? What about the opposit

    Quote Originally Posted by Kayden View Post
    I'm also pro choice and don't consider it murder but I'll try to clear up the confusion from my reply:
    Some pro-lifers think that murder of an innocent is okay if it saves the life of someone else (the mother.)
    That is not a legal defense in the US. Imagine a situation where Person A points a gun at Person B and says "go kill Person C. He didn't do anything wrong, but he looked at me weird so I want him dead. If you don't do it, I will kill you." Legally, if Person B kills Person C, they will be guilty of murder. B can kill A and it is self defense or they can refuse to do it, be killed and then A will be guilty of murder. This only applies to murder. If A told B to go rob a bank instead, it would be a defense to the crime of bank robbery.
    I kind of see what you are saying now. I don't know the legality of what you said, I'm not a lawyer, I just know if someone was pointing a gun at me and told me to shoot someone, I would do it and not expect to get punished, so I guess I disagree with the law. But that's beside the point. What I meant to say is that if you take what you said and apply that to abortion, you would think the mother could abort the fetus that is threatening her life, but then the doctor would be in trouble for performing the abortion since he's not killing something that is threatening his life.

  10. #10
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    Re: What position from your own political party you just don't get? What about the opposit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryder View Post
    I kind of see what you are saying now. I don't know the legality of what you said, I'm not a lawyer, I just know if someone was pointing a gun at me and told me to shoot someone, I would do it and not expect to get punished, so I guess I disagree with the law. But that's beside the point. What I meant to say is that if you take what you said and apply that to abortion, you would think the mother could abort the fetus that is threatening her life, but then the doctor would be in trouble for performing the abortion since he's not killing something that is threatening his life.


    Yeah, it's a weird part of the law and it happens so rarely that the legislators haven't felt the need to think about it too much. Also, I was being a little general in my earlier statement because while I know this is the case in some states, others may be different. Also, it gets pretty complicated because while it may not be a defense to outright murder, it could be a defense to the felony murder rule. It may also be used as a defense if you're saving many lives as it's something done for the "greater good." And in the end, it all comes down to prosecutorial discretion. Even if the law states one thing, the DA can always decide to just not prosecute it.

  11. #11
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    Re: What position from your own political party you just don't get? What about the opposit

    Democrats: Why are you so willing to trample on the constitution when it comes to guns? Republicans: What’s it to you what happens in the privacy of our homes? Also, why be so against weed?

  12. #12
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    Re: What position from your own political party you just don't get? What about the opposit

    Quote Originally Posted by Zander. View Post
    Democrats: Why are you so willing to trample on the constitution when it comes to guns? Republicans: What’s it to you what happens in the privacy of our homes? Also, why be so against weed?
    Although I agree with the majority's reasoning in Heller, agreeing with the dissent instead (for a 5–4 decision) is quite reasonable. If one operates from the assumption that the dissent (and essentially SCOTUS itself before Heller) treated this issue in the correct way, then it's not trampling on the Constitution to advocate for strong gun control.

  13. #13
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    Re: What position from your own political party you just don't get? What about the opposit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryder View Post
    Although I agree with the majority's reasoning in Heller, agreeing with the dissent instead (for a 5–4 decision) is quite reasonable. If one operates from the assumption that the dissent (and essentially SCOTUS itself before Heller) treated this issue in the correct way, then it's not trampling on the Constitution to advocate for strong gun control.
    That’s really the crux of it, what is reasonable and what isn’t. I believe it was the Heller case that incorporated the 2nd amendment to the states (it could be the McDonald case, I can’t remember). The anti-gun states have just become unreasonably more anti-gun since then. To me it looks like they just want to punish those who seek legal means to protect themselves.

  14. #14
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    Re: What position from your own political party you just don't get? What about the opposit

    Quote Originally Posted by Zander. View Post
    That’s really the crux of it, what is reasonable and what isn’t. I believe it was the Heller case that incorporated the 2nd amendment to the states (it could be the McDonald case, I can’t remember). The anti-gun states have just become unreasonably more anti-gun since then. To me it looks like they just want to punish those who seek legal means to protect themselves.
    But it doesn't appear to be trampling on the Constitution at all if federal courts of appeals, including courts sitting en banc, uphold the restrictions, and SCOTUS declines to grant cert on those cases.

  15. #15
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    Re: What position from your own political party you just don't get? What about the opposit

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryder View Post
    But it doesn't appear to be trampling on the Constitution at all if federal courts of appeals, including courts sitting en banc, uphold the restrictions, and SCOTUS declines to grant cert on those cases.
    There is no circuit split on these cases because, ironically, the other circuits don't have states that would dare pass such ridiculous laws that fly directly in the face of Heller. If there were a circuit split you would see SCOTUS grant cert in a heartbeat. I really wish some gun-loving state would bite the bullet and pass an AR-15 ban just so that it could be slapped down by one of the conservative circuits and create a split. But so long as it's the usual suspects passing laws that completely ignore the "in common use" standard of Heller, there will likely never be a circuit split.

  16. #16
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    Re: What position from your own political party you just don't get? What about the opposit

    Quote Originally Posted by Zander. View Post
    There is no circuit split on these cases because, ironically, the other circuits don't have states that would dare pass such ridiculous laws that fly directly in the face of Heller. If there were a circuit split you would see SCOTUS grant cert in a heartbeat. I really wish some gun-loving state would bite the bullet and pass an AR-15 ban just so that it could be slapped down by one of the conservative circuits and create a split. But so long as it's the usual suspects passing laws that completely ignore the "in common use" standard of Heller, there will likely never be a circuit split.
    Much more likely, yest, but not necessarily true. I imagine part of the reason why there might not be a cert grant there might be one of the motivating reasons in the other cases I noted: If the case is not a good vehicle, then SCOTUS will wait for the next one.

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