1. #449
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by lexx View Post
    all GOV taxed monies go to PAY for SERVICES and CONTRACTS!! personally i think there should be a PUBLIC WORKS dept!! guaranteed JOBS!!
    Sounds marvelous, "guaranteed jobs." Who pays for it? Oh, I get it, we take money from hard working entrepreneurs and others who don't take hand outs and live off the hog. ha. ha.

  2. #450
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for society?

    hard work as you RANT it is for GREEDY SUCKERS!! haven't you ever said to someone....TAKE IT EASY!?
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  3. #451
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by lexx View Post
    hard work as you RANT it is for GREEDY SUCKERS!! haven't you ever said to someone....TAKE IT EASY!?
    Yeah, take it easy when you retire. In the meantime work hard for your keep! ha. ha.

  4. #452
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for society?

    and who was it that said dont work hard work smart!!
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  5. #453
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for society?

    Under communism, the all-round development of people will be accompanied by the growth of the productive forces on the basis of continuous progress in science and technology, all the springs of social wealth will flow abundantly, and the great principle "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" will be implemented. Communism is a highly organized society of free, socially conscious working people a society in which public self-government will be established, a society in which labor for the good of society will become the prime vital requirement of everyone, a clearly recognized necessity, and the ability of each person will be employed to the greatest benefit of the people.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_society

    I claim communism defies human nature. If it were the right social order, why do so many communist societies collapse? Where in the real world do you find equality? What groups of people or individuals are equal? I suggest you find equality in some government organizations where government officials control resources and people for what leaders propose to be “proper conduct.” In free markets, individuals are not constrained by government dictates or organizations. They seek to define themselves according to what they do best. Why do communists struggle to establish a dysfunctional society? Could it be they don’t understand human nature?

    I propose people are different because their identity and ambitions are based on competency needs. People are motivated to gain social recognition for competence, not social equality. Everyone, in one way or another, strives to developed what “they can do best” in order to achieve. As for evidence, it is everywhere in the real world. Young people learn what they can do best, develop competences, and then allow themselves opportunities to “achieve,” or excel at activities or endeavors most likely to satisfy “competence needs.”

  6. #454
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for society?

    The most bizarre case of communism being a bad fit for society is China. We can trace back the communist party in China to the 1930s when bands of communist guerrillas fought the Chinese Republican Army for control of China. We know, of course who won the long struggle, it was settled after WWII. Subsequently, the communist government of China needed to industrialize the nation to relieve the population of hardships caused by endless years of civil war. It is a long story, but the short version is the communist government of China adopted capitalist principles for its economy all the while instituting socialist principles for its government in order to claim the Marxian mantel as a communist nation. So, now, we have communist leaders professing social equality, as Marx proposed, all the while using capitalist practices from Western nations for their economy.

    How could China have achieved such economic prosperity while at the same time adhering to Marx's proposition of equal justice, equal distribution of resources, and equality for all? It would not have been possible if China had adopted communist principles for its economy. China secured its economic prosperity by adopting technology from Western capitalist nations including factory systems for mass production, an educational system for teaching the many skills required for efficient mass production, including higher education for engineers and scientists, pirating high tech knowledge from US manufactures, and other types of product information found in advanced Western societies. It has been a monumental feat, capitalistic practices from Western Nations, including the US, have been adopted on an enormous scale in order to compete and, eventually, outproduce capitalist nations throughout the world.

    It is interesting, now we have Chinese communist party leaders practicing communism in a massive governmental system, all the while deriving the benefits of capitalist practices for their economy. It is a bizarre case of ethnic and cultural schizophrenia. Chinese officials profess the cause of communism, and display the many symbols associated with a Marxian social order, but, in practice, in order to maintain world dominance as a economic juggernaut, economic institutions and practices are not much different than what is found in Western nations. In short, China proclaims virtues as a communist nation all the while practicing capitalism for economic gains.
    Last edited by Cnance; 12-26-2018 at 02:01 PM.

  7. #455
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for society?

    Under communism, the all-round development of people will be accompanied by the growth of the productive forces on the basis of continuous progress in science and technology, all the springs of social wealth will flow abundantly, and the great principle "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" will be implemented. Communism is a highly organized society of free, socially conscious working people a society in which public self-government will be established, a society in which labor for the good of society will become the prime vital requirement of everyone, a clearly recognized necessity, and the ability of each person will be employed to the greatest benefit of the people.

    going by this definition, the BEST FIT question can be compared to the best fit for alcoholics is BOOZE on every street corner!? communism is not an ENFORCEABLE state!? it is reached thru a transparent educational system!? but once 1 understands it the TEMPTATION to SPEED up the PROCESS is understandable!?
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  8. #456
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by lexx View Post
    Under communism, the all-round development of people will be accompanied by the growth of the productive forces on the basis of continuous progress in science and technology, all the springs of social wealth will flow abundantly, and the great principle "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" will be implemented. Communism is a highly organized society of free, socially conscious working people a society in which public self-government will be established, a society in which labor for the good of society will become the prime vital requirement of everyone, a clearly recognized necessity, and the ability of each person will be employed to the greatest benefit of the people.

    going by this definition, the BEST FIT question can be compared to the best fit for alcoholics is BOOZE on every street corner!? communism is not an ENFORCEABLE state!? it is reached thru a transparent educational system!? but once 1 understands it the TEMPTATION to SPEED up the PROCESS is understandable!?
    Sounds like communist BS. It is not communism which has produced economic prosperity for China, it is CAPITALISM.

    It is interesting how Marx contradicted himself. On the one hand he proclaimed "social stratification of past and present societies is bad, or evil," while at the same time professing principles which advance or enhance social differences by proclaiming "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs." Marx made unproven assumptions about workers being alienated or unhappy in their work. Reading works of Marx is enough to make one go crazy! He assumed a lot about people without knowing, He was caught in a utopian bubble in proposing solutions. Without Marx the world would be a better off!
    Last edited by Cnance; 12-27-2018 at 03:18 AM.

  9. #457
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for society?

    big uphill BATTLE against a western DOMINATED world that has been PROPOGANDIZED against the doctrines of communism!? and so many FAKE examples that CLAIM to be communist!! authoritarian states....you know, the KIND tRUMP admires!!
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  10. #458
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by lexx View Post
    big uphill BATTLE against a western DOMINATED world that has been PROPOGANDIZED against the doctrines of communism!? and so many FAKE examples that CLAIM to be communist!! authoritarian states....you know, the KIND tRUMP admires!!
    What total BS. What are examples of communism which Trump admires? Lexx sounds like a dedicated Marxist, full of contradictions and utopian ideas. lexx, like other communists, should read what Marx wrote!

    Marx was an intellectual idiot. ha ha. He criticized societies for perpetuating social differences, or inequalities while at the same time proposing an impractical or untenable social order for eliminating those differences. As I have pointed out on this thread, Marx got it wrong. His assumptions for good and bad societies were contradictory. He was correct in pointing out how industrial societies perpetuate social differences, but he was wrong in proposing processes of LEVELING for producing an ideal society. Communism, as Marx proposed, is fantasy land, not a reality based society.
    Last edited by Cnance; 12-26-2018 at 02:39 PM.

  11. #459
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for society?

    Marx’s analysis of social classes is flawed inasmuch as he neglected to address the rudimentary "foundations of human nature." For his macro-analysis of societies and subsequent proposal of social class change, he imposed his values and interpretation, or his subjectivity, on entire societies. It resulted in a mode of analysis leading to his theory of class conflict based on assumptions of control and exploitation by controlling members of the middle and upper classes over the proletariat, or working classes. There is little or no evidence for Marx’s assertion that people suffer false consciousness and are therefore dubbed into submission by capitalists or persons in authority. There is however evidence of rebellion or revolts as a consequence of controlling members abusing their authority over working classes. However, each context of rebellion or revolt must be examined based on specific circumstances of abuses or mishandling of authority. It is certainly true that workers need supervision by supervisors to complete tasks necessary to produce products or services, and, in most circumstances, the workplace dictates chains of commandment for the execution or completion of work-related activities.

    Again, Marx’s mode of analysis wasn’t value neutral, it was a set of preconceived ideas based on assumptions and interpretations which had little or no empirical basis. In most areas of analysis, Marx’s perception of workers involved in activities of production, social classes, and social conflict was flawed. Marx could not test his hypotheses for social classes, class conflict and the final resolution, Communism. Marx’s proposal for a classless communist society had no empirical bases. It has not been tested, and his philosophical mode of analysis flawed his analysis by funneling his ideas of social relations through philosophical frameworks. Marx derived his social class conflict from Hegel, a well-known German philosopher, who proposed what he termed the “dialectic process” to explain social conflict between social classes and its final resolution with a one class society. Perhaps, the philosophical basis of Marx’s theory was the primary reason for his social class conflict theory not materializing in the real world. Another miscalculation for Marx was his assumption of business relations in Europe remaining constant, or there being little or no changes in the economic order for those societies.

    Marx’s most egregious error was assuming a one class Communist society as the final resolution of social class conflict. It would happen as a result of capitalist exploitation of the “proletariat,” or working classes. In the real world, we don’t find people amenable to the elimination of social differences. It is human nature to seek social recognition for competent outcomes. As an example, new employees seek jobs where they can excel or succeed. An efficient factory or workplace is one in which workers have found jobs to accomplish work tasks necessary to produce a product or service, not necessarily to just work or consume time on the clock. Therefore, social stratification based on job duties is essential for efficient productivity. There cannot be a classless society when most people seek recognition for individual areas of competence, not for the commandments of their superiors in the workplace, or expectations or dictates of government leaders or persons in authority in their communities. It is true that workers seek approval and recognition from superiors, but the end goal for both workers and supervisors is to produce products or services, not to persevere in the pursuit of sameness.

    In short, Marx assumed exploitation of workers when, in fact, workers use their abilities to accomplish work related tasks for wages or income. In the context of worker’s situation in the workplace, and in the community, Marx assumed workers or the “proletariat” where being exploited, when, in fact, in most cases, they were about doing their business to fulfill needs to be useful and productive workers. In other words, Marx made unproven assumptions about workers or the proletariat class. Marx had not proven his case of capitalist exploitation of workers. Moreover, Marx’sassumption or workers being alienated because they were not fulfilling themselves in their work has not been proven.

    Even though we have unproven assumptions, Marx's solution for worker exploitation was emancipation leading to “Communism,” which would give people the freedom that bourgeois society denies them. Communism is, he explains, "the positive transcendence of private property,or human self-estrangement, and therefore the real appropriation of the human essence by and for man... the complete return of man to himself as a social being..." (Economic and Philosophical Manuscripts of 1844) Marx was a very busy protagonist, he wrote volumes proposing an utopian ideology which continues to inspire and mislead liberals in their views of society.
    Last edited by Cnance; 12-27-2018 at 01:58 PM.

  12. #460
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for society?

    Marx's solution for worker exploitation was emancipation leading to “Communism,” which would give people the freedom that bourgeois society denies them. Communism is, he explains, "the positive transcendence of private property,or human self-estrangement, and therefore the real appropriation of the human essence by and for man... the complete return of man to himself as a social being..

    he's a GENIUS!! it seems to ME his whole theory is simply taking the SUPERSTITON out of RELIGION!!
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  13. #461
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by lexx View Post
    Marx's solution for worker exploitation was emancipation leading to “Communism,” which would give people the freedom that bourgeois society denies them. Communism is, he explains, "the positive transcendence of private property,or human self-estrangement, and therefore the real appropriation of the human essence by and for man... the complete return of man to himself as a social being..

    he's a GENIUS!! it seems to ME his whole theory is simply taking the SUPERSTITON out of RELIGION!!
    You have some problems. First, you have not made a case for bourgeois capitalist denying people freedom. If you had read my statement, you would doubt Marxism because there is no evidence for his assertions. Explain how in the real world we find an example of "the complete return of man to himself as a social being." You need to read what you critique before you post. Marx was a Genius idiot. Present examples of how his concepts apply! Use real life examples, not fantasy ideas from Marx's writings.

    Lets discuss Marx's concept of alienation. Define alienation, and then present examples of it. The word has been misused because there is no clear meaning or application in the "real world."
    Last edited by Cnance; 12-28-2018 at 12:23 AM.

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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for society?

    are you saying that UTOPIA as described in religious writings cannot EXIST!? and yet you are always PREACHING obey god!? tell us WHY that ISN'T WORKING in the REAL WORLD!? are joos a CLASS of people!? are the NON joos ALIENATED !? is judaism a BEST FIT for society!?
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for society?

    Quote Originally Posted by lexx View Post
    are you saying that UTOPIA as described in religious writings cannot EXIST!? and yet you are always PREACHING obey god!? tell us WHY that ISN'T WORKING in the REAL WORLD!? are joos a CLASS of people!? are the NON joos ALIENATED !? is judaism a BEST FIT for society!?
    I prefer to have a religious discussion on the religious forum. You are mixing what I have posted on religious topics with this thread. Keep ideas separated. If you want to discuss Judaism and society, go the religious thread. I suspect you are trying to trap me, but I won't take the bait. The topic is communism.
    Last edited by Cnance; 12-28-2018 at 04:33 PM.

  16. #464
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for society?

    If you do an analysis of Marxism with real world examples, you find it falls on its face, and never recovers.

    In order to make my case, I’ll first present a real-world example of workers in a factory. Then, I’ll apply a Marxian analysis to the example. The purpose of this exercise is to demonstrate the falsity of Marxism, or why it doesn’t work! Well, maybe it works, the results would be an unnatural world where people are deprived of opportunities to pursue goals to fulfill “competence needs,” or to realize their desires. In the capitalist world, people seek training, education and opportunities to pursue jobs in order to get out of poverty, succeed at life ambitions, and maintain families. In the Communist world, government becomes overbearing and oppressive in an effort to "maintain equality" in keeping with standards of a "Communist society," which, of course, is a contradiction because individuality is nearly impossible when the government dictates standards.

    A wealthy businessman builds a new factory to compete with a new car in the marketplace. Mr. Smith has acquired a small fortune by manufacturing automobiles. Recently, Mr. Smith acquired a unique automobile design intended to become a hot seller. His bankers, based on his loan application, find him to be a good risk. They loan him several million dollars necessary to build his plant to manufacture the new automobile. The assemble plant is built. Agencies are retained, adds are placed in local newspapers for engineers, technicians, and assemble line workers. After several weeks of planning and hiring, the plant is ready to produce the new stylish automobile. Subsequently, the new automobile rolls off the assembly line and into dealers’ lots. In a short time, the new car is purchased in record numbers. Mr. Smith is elated and asked for another bank loan to expand his automobile assembly plant. More banks are contacted and Mr. Smith secures more money for a plant expansion. Suddenly, Mr. Smith is receiving a lot of attention as his new automobile becomes a best seller. Some of his wealthy friends agree to merge their companies with Mr. Smith’s new automobile enterprise. Workers receive salary increases and bonus checks for their efforts to produce the new automobile.

    Now, let’s do a Marxian analysis of the story about the stylish new automobile.

    Apparently, according to Marxists at a local university, Mr. Smith is a wealthy capitalist who associates with other wealthy capitalist, who like him, have made a lot of money “exploiting workers” to pad their bank accounts. They all live in expensive homes and associate with one another in order to hatch plans to manufacture products so as to maintain their wealth and exploit workers for profit. In short, it’s a capitalist conspiracy to exploit the proletariat and dominate them for the purpose of maintaining a monopoly. Yes, indeed, wealthy business men exploiting “poor downtrodden” workers will cause much trouble.

    A big problem for Mr. Smith is he doesn’t raise assemble line workers’ wages sufficiently to satisfy them. One day, as the assemble line is proceeding at a rapid pace to produce the new stylish automobile, union leaders, who are also Marxists, show up to protest “worker exploitation.” Demonstrations get out of hand. Union leaders begin street rallies. News of the street rallies spreads throughout the region. Marxist students from a local university join the crowd shouting, “We shall overcome. Down with the dirty capitalist! Down with worker exploitation.” At the national Marxist headquarters in Washington, Marxist leaders meet to decide what to do about the trouble in the streets around the automobile plant. It is decided!

    The time is ripe for a Communist revolution. Banners in the street proclaim a new “world order.” Street speakers shout their displeasure at Mr. Smith and his wealthy friends, they are exploiting poor workers (proletariat). Marxist agitators organize workers and attack Mr. Smith’s luxurious home destroying it because he is a “filthy capitalist” who exploits alienated workers, not allowing them to become “their natural or healthy selves.”

    Then, Marxist leaders shout in the streets. “We must all be equal, there must be no monopoly of capital.” They meet at a street rally and proclaim a new world order, one based on equality, justice, self-fulfillment, and equal distribution of resources. Will the Marxists succeed in their plans for a Communist society? Will the workers succeed in taking over and occupying the expensive home of Mr. Smith? Will they succeed in forming a world-wide coalition of like-minded Marxists to create a Communist order? Probably not, a Communist society must adhere to Marxist's principles, which results in stifling individual freedom for a social order. To implement Communism, the government must indoctrinate citizens to be like-minded according to a Marxist concept of freedom, which is a form of repression whereby the government dictates standards. Real freedom is a society where government allows citizens to pursue activities unrestrained, thereby allowing them to realize their competency-based identities.
    Last edited by Cnance; 12-28-2018 at 07:45 PM.

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