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  1. #1
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    Is Communism the best fit for society?

    Let the debate begin. Here is a general definition of Communism.

    Under communism, the all-round development of people will be accompanied by the growth of the productive forces on the basis of continuous progress in science and technology, all the springs of social wealth will flow abundantly, and the great principle "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" will be implemented. Communism is a highly organized society of free, socially conscious working people a society in which public self-government will be established, a society in which labor for the good of society will become the prime vital requirement of everyone, a clearly recognized necessity, and the ability of each person will be employed to the greatest benefit of the people.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_society

    I claim communism defies human nature. If it were the right social order, why do so many communist societies collapse? Where in the real world do you find equality? What groups of people or individuals are equal? I suggest you find equality in some government organizations where government officials control resources and people for what leaders propose to be “proper conduct.” In free markets, individuals are not constrained by government dictates or organizations. They seek to define themselves according to what they do best. Why do communists struggle to establish a dysfunctional society? Could it be they don’t understand human nature?

    I propose people are different because their identity and ambitions are based on competency needs. People are motivated to gain social recognition for competence, not social equality. Everyone, in one way or another, strives to developed what “they can do best” in order to achieve. As for evidence, it is everywhere in the real world. Young people learn what they can do best, develop competences, and then allow themselves opportunities to “achieve,” or excel at activities or endeavors most likely to satisfy “competence needs.”
    Last edited by Administrator; 05-09-2018 at 11:04 AM.

  2. #2
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for soceity?

    Communism must be the worst kind of government ever! It says, work hard we need your money. Lazy people love it; they can live off everyone else's labors. It says we are equal even though we aren't. It says entrepreneurs harm society and should be eliminated. It says all the tall heads should be shopped off, ha. ha. It says all those with big houses should let the poor live in spare bedrooms. It says capitalists should serve life person terms for making a lot of money. It says free speech should be eliminated because it might upset government officials. It says smart people should take dump pills to eliminate put-downs from dump people. It says awards for successful outcomes should be eliminated; it may cause others to have low self-esteem. It says sporting events should be carefully monitored for fear of offended bad athletes. It says old people should take suicide pills to eliminate social and medical costs for younger people.

  3. #3
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for soceity?

    I propose there will not be much discussion on this thread because a large number of people have been brain washed. Why do I say that. Well, it is because, as a former professor, I know how much Marxism has penetrated higher education. Where is the proof, one might ask. Well, it is easy to find. Just look at indexes to introductory textbooks in social science disciplines. What you find are many references to Karl Marx. He has become a hero for the majority of college professors. Then, check out college classes. How many lectures and favorable comments are made about Marx?

    Based on logic and understanding, it is easy to conclude Marx was an intellectual Idiot! He did not understand the truth about human nature. He proposed a theory based on equality, which is not found in nature or in human societies. I challenge anyone to refute my proposition. Where do you find equality in the social world? Oh, yes, you find it when government makes it happen. That is not natural, it is contrived. Marx got it wrong!

    Oh, I need to mention, Marx is important. In the real world we have many bloody examples of Marxism, which include Stalin's purges of millions of people, decades of Soviet dictatorship, numerous failed revolutions throughout the world where millions of people have been brutally massacred, imprisoned, and denied economic opportunities to thrive and survive in free societies. It would have been better for the world if Marx had not been born.

    Oh, I forgot to mention China, a Marxist nation. Well, is China really communist? How does its economy function? Doesn't China prosper by manufacturing products for capitalists? What would happen to China if it really practiced communism? It would collapse! In practice, communism doesn't work, it is a destructive form of government.
    Last edited by Cnance; 12-26-2017 at 07:45 PM.

  4. #4
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for soceity?

    When Trump became president the US was saved from becoming a Clinton welfare state following Obama's socialist (Marxist) agenda. Finally, the American people woke up to Democratic abuses, a nightmare of tax and spend which has nearly bankrupt the nation. Trump has enacted common sense solutions to a failing economy. Now corporations don't have to go abroad to avoid huge taxes, they can prosper in a capitalist nation where prospering from honest labor is not a shameful practice. What a relief, the US does not have to suffer from Obama's elitism.
    Last edited by Cnance; 12-28-2017 at 01:52 PM.

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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for soceity?

    That's why it's good that Shillary didn't win the election. We would have 40% of US citizens on food stamps.

    Originally Posted by nomaxim
    Sorry there ''ohein56', but it appears that 'Joecool44' does not have the position that you envision on this topic.

    'Joecool44' has, as a matter of routine, refuted most of your accusations
    Quote Originally Posted by Jax74 View Post
    Some people have the ability to think critically, some do not. ohein obviously doesn't.

  6. #6
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for soceity?

    The ridiculous implications of communism can be found in multiple examples of real world activities. As an example, take a sporting event, the one hundred yard dash. Inevitably there will be winners and losers. Well, suppose we impose communist rules. How do we level the playing field? Do we take away awards from the winners? Do we give losers special favors because they lost? How do we make everyone feel equal or even special?

    Take a larger example, how about the social structure of a capitalist society. We assume its structure is based on different abilities. As for the absurdity of communism, allow a construction worker to design a building, or a medical technician to perform an operation. How about a untrained singer bellowing the national anthem at a football game? Let incompetent workers take over their plants or workplaces. What would happen? We can go on and on with so many examples of the absurdity of communism. I am waiting for a rebuttal. Aren't there any Marxists out there?

    Is there a good argument for communism?

    Assuming Communism is a stateless or moneyless society where class distinctions (upper class, middle-class and lower-class) don’t exist, how is it possible? No matter how you justify such a society, it is "utopian." Eventually, it will fail. People require reinforcement or self-esteem maintenance, which means they need to know if their best efforts are acceptable. How can they know others perception of their efforts if rewards or feedback is lacking? You work and achieve your goals, another person works and fails. Should both live in the same kind of home, receive the same paycheck, and have the same retirement income? To see the application of this idea, consider numerous lookalike apartment buildings built by the USSR for the labor force. Shouldn't the better worker get more money? Shouldn't entrepreneurs receive remuneration for their talent and productive ideas? There are many, many examples of the ridiculousness of Communism, it is la la land.
    Last edited by Cnance; 12-28-2017 at 07:04 PM.

  7. #7
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for soceity?

    Where is that good argument for Marxism? It is amazing how Marxism has taken off in the academic world. In Sociology it is called "conflict theory." If you're a sociologist and you oppose Marxism, you are under attack by other sociologists. As a matter of fact, if you oppose Marxism, you will not be allowed to teach courses in the discipline. It is that bad!

    In other disciplines you can survive as a anti-Marxists, but it may be difficult. Even in History, Marxism prevails. Could it be that most academicians in the social science disciplines are Marxists? I don't know of a survey, but, based on my experience as a former sociology professor, it may be true. In the science disciplines, there are few, or no Marxists. What does Marxism have to do with scientific explanations? In my academic career, I changed disciplines and became a management professor. I enjoyed educating people to qualify for jobs, instead of advancing the "proletariat revelation."

    It is crazy, liberal art professors enjoy the fruits of Capitalism, and, yet, propose economic and political theories critical of Capitalism.

    In previous postings on this thread I have proposed an irrefutable argument against Marxism. I encourage Marxist to post their argument. I doubt if they have one, I have not found a good argument for Marxism. The basic problem is Marx didn't understand modern societies, and his definition of human nature is flawed. People are different, there are no examples of equality in the real world. Oh, the exception to the rule are controlled communist societies where people are forced to comply to equality rules. In the nature order of things, people seek to fulfill their competences, therefore, separating themselves from others who also compete to fulfill their competences, all of which results in a stratified social order. Where are the criticisms? Don't Marxist have a good argument for their "repressive" way of life.

    Wait, aren't professors smarter than the rest of the population? What happened?
    Last edited by Cnance; 12-30-2017 at 05:16 PM.

  8. #8
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for soceity?

    what brought communism up!? how about fascism!? or despotism!? or monarchy or plutocracy or.....
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for soceity?

    Quote Originally Posted by lexx View Post
    what brought communism up!? how about fascism!? or despotism!? or monarchy or plutocracy or.....
    Communism is the basis for several nations: China, Venezuela, Cuba, and the former USSR. Moreover, as I state, it dominates higher education. You can ignore it, but it won't go away. After WWII, Communist dominated USSR ascended to world power after the fall of Nazism and fascism. Communism is intriguing because it is based on the works of one man, Karl Marx.
    Last edited by Cnance; 12-30-2017 at 05:42 PM.

  10. #10
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for soceity?

    i dont think there are any PURE communist countrys! simply becuz they trade/do business with the world!? maybe N KOREA represents the closest example!? maybe cuba under castro!?
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  11. #11
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for soceity?

    Quote Originally Posted by lexx View Post
    i dont think there are any PURE communist countrys! simply becuz they trade/do business with the world!? maybe N KOREA represents the closest example!? maybe cuba under castro!?
    N Korea is a world threat, it is a hold over from the Korean war, which was about "Communist" domination of Asia.

    Marxism is not insignificant. Here is a reference for you to read. Most people don't understand the basis of Communism, it is all about the writings of Marx. If you have a question, I'll explain.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism
    Last edited by Cnance; 12-30-2017 at 06:39 PM.

  12. #12
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for soceity?

    Remember the cold war? It was about Communist domination of the world.

    I agree that Communism has become less of a threat to world peace since the decline of the USSR in 1989, but there remains China, a very large communist nation. As long as China's economy depends on Western nations for trade relations, communism is not a threat. However, if china ever decided to become true to communist beliefs, everything would change. Chinese officials are members of the Communist Party, but they allow Capitalist practices to flourish in order to support the communist regime. What would happen if Chinese companies stopped manufacturing Capitalist products or refused to make profits by efficiently producing goods for US companies? Chinese Communism would collapse. In principle, and in practice, communism and capitalism are contradictory.

    Then, there is the Vietnam War where Communist N. Vietnam fought a bloody war with the US. You can't down play Communism, it has been a threat to the world every since the 1917 Bolshevik Revolution in Russia.

    As for higher education, evidence indicates there are more Marxist than Conservative professors on US college campuses.

    https://www.academia.org/self-identi...ge-professors/
    Last edited by Cnance; 12-30-2017 at 06:42 PM.

  13. #13
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for soceity?

    i have studied marxism/communism/socialism as an intellectual study of human economic function. kinda reminds me of the new testament believers that pool everything to be distributed where needed!? of course you might refute that!! i am also looking at the merits pitfalls of altruism!? i dont believe marxism can be IMPLEMENTED by gov authority but rather comes about thru education by a dialectic process!?
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  14. #14
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for soceity?

    Quote Originally Posted by lexx View Post
    i have studied marxism/communism/socialism as an intellectual study of human economic function. kinda reminds me of the new testament believers that pool everything to be distributed where needed!? of course you might refute that!! i am also looking at the merits pitfalls of altruism!? i dont believe marxism can be IMPLEMENTED by gov authority but rather comes about thru education by a dialectic process!?
    I partly agree with your statement: "I dont believe marxism can be IMPLEMENTED by gov authority but rather comes about thru education by a dialectic process!?"

    Marxism, or communism as it is commonly called, is not natural for human societies. It has to be forced on the population. Then, it never works because it is "utopian." For a while, such as the beginning of a communist revolution, people conform to equalitarian principles, but then it falls apart as people find it violates group norms and social recognition processes. How can you have equality in any group when there are differences in ability, ambition, and commitment to goals? Because Marx didn't define human nature correctly, it never works. Here are some of Marx's incorrect assumptions. The natural tendency of humans is to strive for individual fulfillment in a natural world, not in a capitalist society where owners of the means of production control labor. Contrary to Marx, most people are not alienated from work, they have been socialized into industrial societies to fulfill "competency needs." Each worker finds what he or she can do best and then seeks employment to fulfill those "competency needs."

    You have misused the term dialectic. Mostly, Marx used the concept to explain how social classes conflict, change, and reconstitute into new social relationships. Workers (proletariat) conflict with owners of production (Capitalist) to produce a new social order. Marx envisioned class conflict between the two social classes resulting in a new social order. Ultimately, Marx believed there would be resolution of class conflict. First there would be socialism with a proletariat dictator, then there would be a "new" social order which Marx called communism. We know, however, in the real world, it is not possible. All societies, especially capitalist nations, are stratified into various social orders depending on the nature of work and/or activities. Marx's big mistake was to assume a "homogenous or communist social order." Marx missed the most important characteristic of human societies. People are not alike, neither in families, groups, institutions, or social organizations. People strive to develop their differences (abilities, talents, education, ambitions, and goals) in order to "satisfy" competence needs. Again, where do we find equality in the real world? Communism isn't possible because Marx made false assumptions about human nature, and the nature of society. He believed a natural order (communism) would come about because it fulfills basic human needs.

    When you study the economic structure of Capitalist societies you find people stratified according to competences: ability, intelligence, education, training, and, of course, individual choices. In capitalist societies, people educated themselves for jobs, avocations, and professions in order to take advantage of opportunities to fulfill their needs. As for a good fit, Capitalism is best because it allows for the most efficient allocation of human resources according to individual abilities, education, training, ambition, and freewill choices. The most efficient forms of capitalism are based on democratic principles where individuals are freely disposed to develop competences for the most efficient uses of human resources.
    Last edited by Cnance; 01-01-2018 at 12:21 AM.

  15. #15
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for soceity?

    like i said there is no such thing as a PURE form in any governed state!? there's always a MIXTURE! pure capitalism is completely RUTHLESS only charity personal or organizational makes capitalism bearable!? and of course the largest org is gov! when gov gets involved its declared socialism!? which is merely a political term!? people en mass by NATURE are SOCIALISTIC!? unless class recognition thru politics or other organizational ECONOMIC separations are implemented and authorized thru force of #s or legal determinations!? all comes back to personal knowledge of 1's position and determination to either comply according to self preservation/comfort or abdicate to serve an ideal!? in any case we could ask of any form of governance how well it moderates the effects of EVIL as it's called!? did i leave out the question of how religion mixes into all of this!? going by the current political situation in the USA we can see all this coming to the idea of whether democracy is really the best way to govern!?
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  16. #16
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    Re: Is Communism the best fit for soceity?

    Quote Originally Posted by lexx View Post
    like i said there is no such thing as a PURE form in any governed state!? there's always a MIXTURE! pure capitalism is completely RUTHLESS only charity personal or organizational makes capitalism bearable!? and of course the largest org is gov! when gov gets involved its declared socialism!? which is merely a political term!? people en mass by NATURE are SOCIALISTIC!? unless class recognition thru politics or other organizational ECONOMIC separations are implemented and authorized thru force of #s or legal determinations!? all comes back to personal knowledge of 1's position and determination to either comply according to self preservation/comfort or abdicate to serve an ideal!? in any case we could ask of any form of governance how well it moderates the effects of EVIL as it's called!? did i leave out the question of how religion mixes into all of this!? going by the current political situation in the USA we can see all this coming to the idea of whether democracy is really the best way to govern!?
    I never said there was such a thing as pure communism, there never will be. It is a utopian theory, a form of life which can never be realized. No, people by NATURE are not socialistic. People strive to develop their competences, or what they can do best. Socialism is not what people want, unless they are lazy, incompetent, or unfortunate. If you are immature, dependent on others, lack ambition, are incompetent, socialism is the best form of government. In socialism, you can take from the more industrious members of society, the ones who have good ideas, ambition, or otherwise achieve in a competitive economy. Pure capitalism is tough for lazy, or unqualified, people. It is where the tough get going and the lazy go to sleep, ha. ha.

    Capitalism is the explanation for great success stories, either by entrepreneurship, or pure luck. People like Bill Gates have not been handed a fortune, they earned it with skill, inventiveness, and hard word. I can't think of a worse world than one in which success is denied for entrepreneurs because lazy people want his or her money.

    You say, "going by the current political situation in the USA we can see all this coming to the idea of whether democracy is really the best way to govern!?"

    Apparently, you want the good old Obama days of anti-capitalism where hard working people paid the bill for lazy welfare people. Oh, I know, they aren't all lazy, just some. Even under Obama's socialism, there wasn't equality, hard working people kept it going. What is wrong with the political situation? The stock is pouring money into workers' retirement accounts with record breaking highs, business are returning from overseas to set up plants in the US, taxes have been adjusted so people will be able to keep more of there hard earned money, and, most of all, business are not under attack for earning profits. The US economy has been saved from Anti-Capitalist Obama leaders.

    You got it all wrong. You say, "people en mass by NATURE are SOCIALISTIC!?" Where is the evidence? In the real capitalistic world, when there is a depression, hard working entrepreneurs rise up with new businesses and jobs to save the economy. A well adjusted American is not lazy, he or she will seek work or some productive labor for self-fulfillment.

    It is interesting, if you study communist USSR in its hay day, you find hard working Russians competing in the capitalist marketplace to support lazy, incompetent, or displaced, people. Well, maybe not entirely. Bad communist citizens, the ones who didn't do good work, or the bidding of Soviet leaders, were punished, or sometimes imprisoned in the famous "gulag" prison system. Now, after the fall of the USSR, former communist leaders have taken over former "state owned" firms and made them into "capitalistic organizations." Even under communism, capitalistic practices are essential to support "equality," or "quality of life" for its citizens.

    Present one case, just one, where a socialist economy has prospered, or where a communist revolution has succeeded. The criterion, of course, is a booming or successful world economy such as found in the US, other Western nations, Germany, or otherwise capitalist nations.

    Last edited by Cnance; 01-01-2018 at 03:11 PM.

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