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  1. #97
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    Re: Truth or Fiction? L.Ray Smith bible-truths.com

    I believe it could be argued that, as Hiang meant, Paul was referring to nonbelievers (sinful man) as opposed to believers (mind controlled by the spirit) (Romans 8:5-8). In either case, I agree, we cannot get there by claiming to have special knowledge about God. Assuming all believers are in the same room, would they have the same understanding about God's truth? If they did, we'd have an argument for truth. However, many Christian dogmas dictates otherwise.
    And it is that simple fact regarding the disagreement of christian dogmas that they do not represent truth. Partial truth, yes, but partial truth mixed in with falsehood still amounts to falsehood.

    In any set of conjoined propositions, of one proposition is false, the set is false.

    Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:23, therefore, is the only truthful and logical conclusion we can make regarding human religions: don't follow any of them.

  2. #98
    Hiang is offline In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth
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    Re: Truth or Fiction? L.Ray Smith bible-truths.com

    Hi,

    I came to this thread because someone (either Doojie or L Ray Smith or ...) claimed that eventually all people would not be in HELL.

    Based on Rev 21:8, I know that the above thinking is WRONG and dangerous. So I'm here to counter against such wrong teaching.

    The one difference between the God of the Bible and the others is

    "The Creator God speaks".

    Certainly He speaks not in 38,000 versions as someone keeps saying.

    Has Doojie come across anyone who spoke 365 days ago and now speak the 365th version of similar content?

    When true believers are truly listening to Him, there won't be 38,000 versions.

    I read the comments posted in reply to my posts quite punctually. I delayed in responding because I prayed and prayed to the God of the Bible before I reply.

    Please pray a few times to the Creator God before you post your comment. This is a good practice.

    I'm leaving this thread unless there are still someone who think that there is no HELL eventually.


    Bye.
    Hiang

    Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
    Freely Get 5-Year Christian Education Lessons Here

  3. #99
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    Re: Truth or Fiction? L.Ray Smith bible-truths.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiang View Post
    Hi,

    I came to this thread because someone (either Doojie or L Ray Smith or ...) claimed that eventually all people would not be in HELL.

    Based on Rev 21:8, I know that the above thinking is WRONG and dangerous. So I'm here to counter against such wrong teaching.

    The one difference between the God of the Bible and the others is

    "The Creator God speaks".

    Certainly He speaks not in 38,000 versions as someone keeps saying.

    Has Doojie come across anyone who spoke 365 days ago and now speak the 365th version of similar content?

    When true believers are truly listening to Him, there won't be 38,000 versions.

    I read the comments posted in reply to my posts quite punctually. I delayed in responding because I prayed and prayed to the God of the Bible before I reply.

    Please pray a few times to the Creator God before you post your comment. This is a good practice.

    I'm leaving this thread unless there are still someone who think that there is no HELL eventually.


    Bye.
    Hiang, all one can do is simply answer your posts and show ythe flaw in your reasoning. I never said there is no hell, nor does L.Ray Smith. Biblically, there is a burning that will occur, but not eternal.

    Everything gets burned, and a new start, which is biblical.

    You can say there is a true religion, but you have to prove it, and you have to show why plain and simple logical statements of Paul and Jesus are false.

  4. #100

    Re: Truth or Fiction? L.Ray Smith bible-truths.com

    Hiang, I don't believe there is a place called hell.There is not eternal torment for any of us. No one chooses God of their own. Their is a symbolic lake of fire, but not literal.
    The carnal mind, ego and pride simply doesn't want to believe that God will save all, and that God; who is a consuming fire will purge and refine us, and destroy all of this carnality, idol of the heart kind of crap.
    " Oh no! says the carnal mind, I make my own choices. I chose God, and so can anyone else, and they will burn if they don't."
    God has delivered me from this mentality of seeing us and them.
    We read scripture full of dos and don't s, ifs and buts, and argue and disagree with thousands of beliefs and doctrines of which kills. Yes! I said the letter kills.
    How does it do that? Its simple. Carnal minds looking for God in the letter. The letter does not and never will give life, but the Spirit does. So many people looking for Christ externally.
    Its so hard for people to except that no one will burn for eternity, and that Gods fire is to remove all the junk to make us pure.
    If you would have grown up all your life with the truth about Gods real character, no hell, no free will, and that God is in complete control, then it would be hard to convince you that God created us so most of us would burn, that it all depends on us and our choice to choose God.
    Vessels of honor and dishonor. What is it that is so hard to except that God said this, and its true.
    When God locked up His word from most of the world, and they try to know the truth by the letter, then all they will see, and find is another god that's not the same one I know, which is Spirit

  5. #101

    Re: Truth or Fiction? L.Ray Smith bible-truths.com

    See, listen up. Now this is going into apples trying to be oranges. my truth may not be your truth. when it comes to defining the indefinable and tying down 'truths' on this stuff - its important to remember that we are all just atoms and thats mostly space, having thoughts and feelings, God is within, we are all God

    there were apples and oranges and now there's pears, seems to me truth is unfolding - we can't prove it, but we can attempt to share it

  6. #102
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    Re: Truth or Fiction? L.Ray Smith bible-truths.com

    Quote Originally Posted by enthusiastic View Post
    See, listen up. Now this is going into apples trying to be oranges. my truth may not be your truth. when it comes to defining the indefinable and tying down 'truths' on this stuff - its important to remember that we are all just atoms and thats mostly space, having thoughts and feelings, God is within, we are all God

    there were apples and oranges and now there's pears, seems to me truth is unfolding - we can't prove it, but we can attempt to share it
    And that tells us absolutely nothing.

  7. #103
    Hiang is offline In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth
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    Re: Truth or Fiction? L.Ray Smith bible-truths.com

    Hi,

    Let's do some mathematics.

    1. Moses = a very important person in the Bible

    2. Moses = speaks nothing or little about Hell

    3. Somebody more important than Moses warned many times against Hell while on earth, more than any person in the Bible who ever spoke about Hell.

    4. Therefore, Hell = very important matter, not to be belittled or to be misunderstood.

    When you go to church this coming Lord's day, put on the above mathematical sense when you come into the presence of the Lord.

    If any of your church leader is sweeping aside Hell, this leader is not mathematically in sync with a 'greater than Moses'.

    Bye.
    Hiang

    Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
    Freely Get 5-Year Christian Education Lessons Here

  8. #104

    Re: Truth or Fiction? L.Ray Smith bible-truths.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiang View Post
    Hi,

    Let's do some mathematics.

    1. Moses = a very important person in the Bible

    2. Moses = speaks nothing or little about Hell

    3. Somebody more important than Moses warned many times against Hell while on earth, more than any person in the Bible who ever spoke about Hell.

    4. Therefore, Hell = very important matter, not to be belittled or to be misunderstood.

    When you go to church this coming Lord's day, put on the above mathematical sense when you come into the presence of the Lord.

    If any of your church leader is sweeping aside Hell, this leader is not mathematically in sync with a 'greater than Moses'.

    Bye.
    Hiang, your statement equals absolutely no spiritual knowledge of Christ, or the word. You believe the same thing that the masses believe in.
    Jesus spoke in parables to the masses so that they would not understand because they could not understand. That's the way He intended for it to be even to this day. There is a purpose for this that the masses, and the world to be deceived. God has chosen few to see and know the truth of His parables. Its not something any of us can freely choose.
    The scriptures wouldn't be a mystery if everyone could understand them, yet the masses all see the same thing, and this is because God has a good purpose for it.
    Tough thing to swallow for the carnal mind, in fact the carnal mind will never except it until the Spirit reveals and opens the eyes.

  9. #105
    Hiang is offline In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth
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    Re: Truth or Fiction? L.Ray Smith bible-truths.com

    Quote Originally Posted by olderthanbefore View Post
    Hiang, your statement equals absolutely no spiritual knowledge of Christ, or the word. You believe the same thing that the masses believe in.
    Jesus spoke in parables to the masses so that they would not understand because they could not understand. That's the way He intended for it to be even to this day. There is a purpose for this that the masses, and the world to be deceived. God has chosen few to see and know the truth of His parables. Its not something any of us can freely choose.
    The scriptures wouldn't be a mystery if everyone could understand them, yet the masses all see the same thing, and this is because God has a good purpose for it.
    Tough thing to swallow for the carnal mind, in fact the carnal mind will never except it until the Spirit reveals and opens the eyes.
    Hi Olderthanbefore,

    More often than not, Mathematics speaks truth but not rhetoric.

    Show me your above statements mathematically and if your mathematics makes sense, then, I will consider what you said in so many words above.


    Bye
    Hiang

    Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
    Freely Get 5-Year Christian Education Lessons Here

  10. #106
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    Re: Truth or Fiction? L.Ray Smith bible-truths.com

    All one has to do is a little research on the word hell. One would find out that the the orginal words are hades and sheol. These words are in the oldest manuscripts, the hebrew and greek texts. If anyone one is insterested to find out, scripture never teaches about God sending anyone to a physicall palce called hell where you burn and tourtured for ever and ever. It;s the biggest christian hoax ever. In order to understand this one would have to understand what the words sheol and hades means. The truth will make you free.

  11. #107
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    Re: Truth or Fiction? L.Ray Smith bible-truths.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Hiang View Post
    Hi Olderthanbefore,

    More often than not, Mathematics speaks truth but not rhetoric.

    Show me your above statements mathematically and if your mathematics makes sense, then, I will consider what you said in so many words above.


    Bye

    Godel's theorem, mathematics. "In any consistent axiomatic formulation of number theory, there exist an infinity of undecideable propositions".

    That means, no matter how hard you try, by even the most formal methods of mathematics itself, you can never contain all truth in one package. The harder you try, the more you confront undecideable propositions.

    IOW, you cannot know "God's truth" by an act of will or 'free will choice", nor can you choose to be any closer to God by your will than anyone else(Romans 8:29-30, Romans 9:16-22, which is fully consistent with Godel's theorem)

    That's mathematics.

  12. #108
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    Re: Truth or Fiction? L.Ray Smith bible-truths.com

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    You may have a point, but I was reading from the section about judgement after the "millennial reign" in which all the dead were judged from the book of life(Rev 20:12).
    Yes, the dead will be judged from the Book of Life... Symbollically it refers to Jesus Christ. With Love He will judge/purify every human. As I mentioned, the works of the people will be revealed by Fire - this is part of the judgement process.

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    You are saying that only the elect are written in the book of life, and yet in the above verse we see that the dead, small and great, are raised after a thousand year reign of the elect, who have already been resurrected.

    "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged according to those things which were written in the books, according to their works".).
    The elect is WRITTEN in the Book of Life (Jesus). They are a PART of Jesus. His Brothers... the rest of humanity's sins are CARRIED by Jesus Christ, and therefore their WORKS are written in the Book of Life. Their works will be Judged through Jesus Christ, by Jesus... if that makes sense.:spin2:

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    You will notice also that there is mention of the "second death" in this same chapter:
    Rev 20:14: "and death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death".

    Notice there is no mention here of the dead who are judged having to undergo a second death. It says that death and hell itself, meaning the grave(Sheol) are cast into the lake of fire.

    Then the conclusion "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire".

    There is nothing there saying that those who are raised and judged were actually thrown into the lake of fire for any works they did prior to their resurrection.

    The impression is that "books", (data, or information) regarding their behavior was compiled, and THEN the book of life was consulted.".).
    What I understand about this part, is that the 1000 year reign is starting and the dead are raised. Chapter 20: 5 says :"and the rest of the dead did not live again till the thousand years may be finished; this is the first rising again." in verse 6 it states that the second death "hath no authority" over these raised. They will reign with him a 1000 years. Then after the 1000 years - we're still in the same chapter - Satan is loosed out of prison. And after God casts him in the Lake of Fire, the second raising occurs - the sea, death and hades - gave up those dead in it. They are judged according to their works and then cast into the Lake of Fire.
    In the Chapter 21 is now the new heaven and earth and in verse 4 "and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes, and the death shall not be anymore, nor sorrow, nor crying, nor shall there be anymore pain, because the first things did go away"


    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    But if the wages of sin is death, they already paid the penalty in full before they were resurrected, so their judgement for entrance into the book of life pertained to their resurrected life, not their past life. This would mean that only those who refused life after having seen it in its fullness would be cast into the lake of fire.

    A "second death" would be preceded by a "second chance".."
    The first death is your physical death on earth. The second death is basically a spiritual death - reffering to the purification of the soul. So a second chance is not really the reason for the second death.



    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    So if the elect are judged by "fire" while alive, yet remain to be resurrected, why would you conclude that the rest of the dead would be judged by the Lake of fire? Why would a judgement by 'fire" for the elect be any different from a judgement by "fire" for the rest of the dead? A look at Jesus' teachings from Matthew 25:41 shows:
    "depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire prepared for the DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS. You will also notice that in the book of Jude, verse 12, the same demons are described as "twice dead"(second death).

    The law of "double jeopardy" is said to come from Nahum 1:9, and the idea of a single judgement with single payment(death) is based in that concept which is the foundation of Anglo-American law. These "angels" of Satan who are "twice dead" are those who bring accusation against innocent people, who "bear false witness" and are according to the law in Deuteronomy, bound to pay the penalty for that person who is accused(Deuteronomy 19:19)."
    The judgment of the elect is the same as the rest. They are also purified by God's fire. The difference is, that they were elected by God Himself to undergo it before death. Basically all undergo 2 deaths - one physical and one spiritual.

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    But the "lake of fire" swallows up and destroys death and the grave, along with those who continue to falsely accuse and condemn God's creation, which is us. You have stated by your own writing that there is a "fire" that purifies, and all will be purified by it

    It is true that the "sins" themselves may be cast into that fire for destruction, but not the people themselves, who, as Paul shows in Romans 11, verse 7 and 32, are deliberately deceived for mercy's sake, not for eternal burning in hell..
    All the evil and sins will be destroyed. The persons not. Death will be destroyed, so that there will be no more death and sins will be destroyed. Everything evil. yb:



    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    If you knew you had a hope of resurrection, and if you knew you would get a second chance even if you did die, here and now, would you choose to do what is right from that freedom? What is the advantage of anyone who obeys God because they think they' ll burn forever if they don't?

    Wouldn't God select servant/leaders who did the right thing simply because it is the right thing, who know that God has already forgiven them? If it was necessary to make people obey out of fear of death, even heaven would carry the constant penalty for those who didn't obey.

    Those who understand this now, and who choose obedience in freedom, those are the ones who would be trusted, not those who try to obey some fairy tale because they're afraid they'll burn forever.
    Knowing this truth has given me freedom to truly LOVE God, and not be afraid of Him. I used to serve God out of fear, now I serve him out of LOVE:spin2: It feels amazing and I will never be able to believe anything else. God is LOVE and He Loves all of us. He made us all to be a family and so we will be.

    I understand why people are against my beliefs, and I don't judge. I feel more love towards anyone and everyone, because we are all here to serve a purpose and one day, everybody will understand.

    If I am wrong, then I will also know in the end, but for the first time in my life, I feel free and loved and happy :

    So if I could choose the right thing while knowing that IN THE END I'll still be with God, I will do it out of love for my God and Savior.

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