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  1. #1
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    PERVERTS Go FREE

    Why the 'Dateline' predators were not charged
    Abrams asks why men looking for ******** sex were allowed to walk free


    TRANSCRIPT
    Updated: 6:01 p.m. ET Nov. 9, 2005


    Dan Abrams
    Host, 'The Abrams Report'

    During "Dateline NBC's" recent hidden camera investigation, 19 were caught going to a suburban home where they thought they'd be meeting with sexually available teens. Some made a run for it when they went into the kitchen and saw NBC's Chris Hansen waiting.

    One came into the house completely naked and sat down in the kitchen, where Hansen met him and kindly handed him a towel to cover himself up. A rabbi was so upset at being caught that he even seemingly went after Hansen.

    But why aren't any of these guys being prosecuted?

    In Fairfax, Va. -- where the hidden camera investigation took place -- police say no crimes were committed.

    On Tuesday, Del Harvey from perverted-justice.com, who acted as a decoy in this operation, former Virginia State Prosecutor Tim McEvoy, and former federal prosecutor Matthew Yarbrough joined MSNBC's Dan Abrams to discuss why these men were allowed to walk free.

    To read an excerpt of their conversation, continue to the text below. To watch video from the 'Dateline' investigation, click on the "Launch" button to the right.

    DAN ABRAMS: All right. Tim, first let me start with you. I mean it seems pretty clear that there are laws against even sending some of this material that they sent to the decoys, why is no one being charged?

    TIM MCEVOY, FORMER VIRGINIA PROSECUTOR: Dan, I think the question is extremely legitimate. And I think issue here is not whether the authorities are outraged or upset. But the initial disgust that we all feel as members of the public has got to be tempered by the prosecutor because these cases often rise or fall as you know on intent, you know as seen through the filter of reasonable doubt. And the prosecutors got to weigh all of the evidence, the jury is going to parse every little movement. You're going to see professionals, as the piece showed, who are otherwise trying to show that they're good people, trying to throw substantial doubt...

    ABRAMS: But wait. Tim, the law is pretty clear. I mean let me just read from the law, all right. "It is unlawful for a person 18 or older to use a computer for the purposes of soliciting someone he knows or has reason to believe is a child under 18 years old for certain activities."

    Now, sure, we can parse the different words in the statute, et cetera, but the bottom line is that in most of these cases they're talking about sex. And they make it very clear that they are either 12, 13 or 14 years old.

    MCEVOY: Dan, I don't want to take issue with the idea that it looks like some crimes were committed. When a nude man walks into my living room or my garage with a 12-pack of beer, I've got real problem with that and that looks like a crime to me. Now I'm not sure why the Fairfax County Police Department has indicated apparently to you or to your program that crimes have not been committed. But if that's the case, I'd be quite surprised, and I'd also be surprised if the top prosecutor in Fairfax shared that point of view ... after parsing through the evidence.

    ABRAMS: Mary Ann Jennings from the Fairfax Police Department (appeared) on 'Scarborough Country' (and said the following):

    --Begin video clip--
    MARY ANN JENNINGS, FAIRFAX POLICE DEPT.: Although the house was physically in Fairfax County, from what we've been able to determine from what we've gotten from Perverted-Justice, the crime did not occur in Fairfax County.
    --End video clip--

    ABRAMS: Del Harvey with Perverted-Justice, what do you make of this? What is going on here?

    DEL HARVEY, PERVERTED-JUSTICE: Well it's kinds of an interesting situation in that we aren't really seeing the connection because the conversations over the computer would place the jurisdiction in either the subject's location or our location at the house. We actually had a pass media bus in Waukesha, Mich., in which four people have been charged from that jurisdiction with showing up to the house.

    ABRAMS: So look, you've been involved with "Dateline" and these undercover things, you helped out last year when 18 people showed up, only one of them was prosecuted. And I know that the first thing that you all do when you get this information when you're not working with "Dateline" is you hand it over to the authorities and you say, 'Here, look, here is what we've got, you guys do with it what you will.'

    Are you getting the sense that they're hitting a lot of road blocks?

    HARVEY: To some extent, yes. Interestingly enough actually since Sept. 17 alone we've had two convictions in Virginia. One of which was military based upon a conversation that was started during our work with "Dateline" and the other which was a civilian bust done by state law or local law enforcement actually. So it seems as though given that we had six convictions or seven convictions ... last year and so far this year we've had 31, we're definitely gaining momentum ... and we're finding more and more agencies willing to work with us.

    ABRAMS: But Matthew Yarbrough ... still -- we watch these guys. I mean Chris Hansen has laid out on television exactly what these guys said, some of them talking about bestiality, committing bestial acts with the children, what they think are children. They then come over to the house with the intent it seems, and again, we don't know what's going on in their heads. And they've all denied that they came over there for sex.

    But if you look at what they say on the computer, it seems you'd be able to make a case. ... What about federal law: "Whoever knowingly transfers obscene matter to another individual who has not attained the age of 16 years, knowing that such other individual has not attained the age of 16 years or attempts to do so shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both."

    So what's the problem?

    MATTHEW YARBROUGH, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Well Dan, one of the hardest things to do in any cyber crime is to really put the individual at the computer. So that's the element that the prosecutor is going to be thinking about most when trying to decide how to charge, where to charge jurisdiction wise. But this for me is a slam dunk as a federal prosecutor.

    When you're able to go in front of a jury, and put the sort of tapes in front of the jury, talk about the conversations, you'll be able to get in the computer logs from the chat room sessions, this is a slam dunk. Going in front of a jury about an issue about a child is going to be something that's going to enrage that jury.

    ABRAMS: But Matthew, hasn't there been a problem ... Hasn't there been a problem in cases where cases have been thrown out because the courts have ruled that because the person on the other end of the computer wasn't actually under the age of 16 when the decoy is actually older that here have been cases that have been thrown out as a result?

    YARBROUGH: That is true. But remember in this case depending upon the facts here, is that if you had the transmission of the depiction or the intent for the individual showing up that was going to take a picture of the child, that's going to get you in another federal statute. And that's pretty much where most prosecutors are going to try to use when they do not have the intent for the sexual act with a child.


    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9976909/



    This is what vigilantes are for.

  2. #2
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    Re: PERVERTS Go FREE

    Quote Originally Posted by pwrone

    But Matthew, hasn't there been a problem ... Hasn't there been a problem in cases where cases have been thrown out because the courts have ruled that because the person on the other end of the computer wasn't actually under the age of 16 when the decoy is actually older that here have been cases that have been thrown out as a result?
    That's the problem there. Everyone has a dark side and when people see a set up such as this the first thing that happens is that they say, "Hey, these guys were set up, that wasn't a child they were talking to."

    And by definition of law, one can not go to prison for "INTENT". If they could, there would be ample evidence here on the forum to prosecute you for attempting to incite a RIOT.

    Yet, we are all pretty sure, but we can't prove it, but pretty sure, that wasn't your INTENT.

    Lady Mod

  3. #3
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    Re: PERVERTS Go FREE

    Hi Pwrone,

    As Madonna Moderator says, "Intent" is not a crime. So I will ask my regular question.

    What is your point?

    If a sting operation is going to be done, they have to let the suspects actually 'engage' in the crime. And then stop them when they 'ask' for what ever is being offered. They cannot entrap them, and they cannot "lead' them in to committing the crime.

    This is a hidden camera investigation done by "Dateline", not an official police/vice squad sting operation. The cameras were set up to "catch" men looking for children. The "former prosecutors" are not working on the case. Neither was the "decoy" from the website. The "clip" of the woman from the Fairfax Police Dept., was just that, a clip. We did not see the entire interview with her, or why she made a distinction about where the crime was committed. Following that sound bite, we have the "former prosecutors" and the "website guy" talking about something they set up, and used to show the law has been 'perverted'.

    Bottom line Pwrone, police departments, city and county prosecutors DO NOT get their evidence from a TV show. There are ways and means to collect evidence. That is why our justice system, from time to time, has been the best in human history. Habeas Corpus, innocent until proven guilty, judged by a jury of our peers, no unreasonable search and seizure, not being compelled to testify against ourselves, and many I have not written here, are the foundation of our justice system.
    That can, when applied correctly, catch the guilty, and free the innocent.

    Read the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and marvel.

    Of course I have written all this in vain, you will have no rebuttal, such is life. :rolleyes:

    DeeDee1965

  4. #4
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    Re: PERVERTS Go FREE

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee1965
    Hi Pwrone,

    As Madonna Moderator says, "Intent" is not a crime. So I will ask my regular question.

    What is your point?

    If a sting operation is going to be done, they have to let the suspects actually 'engage' in the crime. And then stop them when they 'ask' for what ever is being offered. They cannot entrap them, and they cannot "lead' them in to committing the crime.

    This is a hidden camera investigation done by "Dateline", not an official police/vice squad sting operation. The cameras were set up to "catch" men looking for children. The "former prosecutors" are not working on the case. Neither was the "decoy" from the website. The "clip" of the woman from the Fairfax Police Dept., was just that, a clip. We did not see the entire interview with her, or why she made a distinction about where the crime was committed. Following that sound bite, we have the "former prosecutors" and the "website guy" talking about something they set up, and used to show the law has been 'perverted'.

    Bottom line Pwrone, police departments, city and county prosecutors DO NOT get their evidence from a TV show. There are ways and means to collect evidence. That is why our justice system, from time to time, has been the best in human history. Habeas Corpus, innocent until proven guilty, judged by a jury of our peers, no unreasonable search and seizure, not being compelled to testify against ourselves, and many I have not written here, are the foundation of our justice system.
    That can, when applied correctly, catch the guilty, and free the innocent.

    Read the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and marvel.

    Of course I have written all this in vain, you will have no rebuttal, such is life. :rolleyes:

    DeeDee1965

    Riiiight...I never respond to your queries, do I?

    This might fall into the "right and wrong" category, don't you think? The ever-elusive concept that a persons rights might not be as important as the rights of his next victim...that arresting and charging these maggots might very well serve the common good.

  5. #5
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    Re: PERVERTS Go FREE

    Quote Originally Posted by pwrone
    Riiiight...I never respond to your queries, do I?

    This might fall into the "right and wrong" category, don't you think? The ever-elusive concept that a persons rights might not be as important as the rights of his next victim...that arresting and charging these maggots might very well serve the common good.
    Hi Pwrone,

    Possible cheap shot, but I have written several question is several threads, directly asking you a question and you have not answered me. But I will let this go, Like I said cheap shot
    (but kinda true ;)).

    If you read what I wrote, you would see that a TV show that is set up to show how "justice is being perverted" is NOT evidence gathering. You are not making any sense. Also like I wrote, what was in the *entire* comment with the woman from the Fairfax Police Dept. The Dateline host plays a clip, and does not play the rest of the comment. Maybe, in the rest of the comment, she explained what she meant, and how she came to that preliminary view. The "former prosecutors" and the "website guy" were NOT conducting legitimate, lawful sting operation. So the "conclusion" the TV show came to is more for, titillation and sexualized TV content, then showing how justice is being "perverted".

    One more thing I wrote, read the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, and marvel. The day YOU are picked for "Intent" and charged, will be the day you understand why the justice system, when used properly, works.

    DeeDee1965

  6. #6
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    Re: PERVERTS Go FREE

    Quote Originally Posted by pwrone
    Riiiight...I never respond to your queries, do I?

    This might fall into the "right and wrong" category, don't you think? The ever-elusive concept that a persons rights might not be as important as the rights of his next victim...that arresting and charging these maggots might very well serve the common good.
    Pwrone, what you ask for, what you want to see happen can work like a two edged sword and arresting people by what looks like INTENT and not an actual commited crime starts to trickle down into lesser offences.

    I'm all for removing these kinds of people off the streets, but lets get them on something harder than responding to emails that are set ups and showing up at secluded houses naked as Jaybirds.

    Dateline is looking for the story not for putting people behind bars. How much of what they set up is actually the way it went down or is it just what they want us to believe? Is what they want us to believe, what they report and what they air on television or is it the unvarnished, unedited truth? How much got cut and ended up on the studio floor before it was all put together? What is their INTENT? Putting criminals behind bars OR increase station ratings?

    Lady Mod

  7. #7
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    Re: PERVERTS Go FREE

    Quote Originally Posted by sojustask
    Pwrone, what you ask for, what you want to see happen can work like a two edged sword and arresting people by what looks like INTENT and not an actual commited crime starts to trickle down into lesser offences.

    I'm all for removing these kinds of people off the streets, but lets get them on something harder than responding to emails that are set ups and showing up at secluded houses naked as Jaybirds.

    Dateline is looking for the story not for putting people behind bars. How much of what they set up is actually the way it went down or is it just what they want us to believe? Is what they want us to believe, what they report and what they air on television or is it the unvarnished, unedited truth? How much got cut and ended up on the studio floor before it was all put together? What is their INTENT? Putting criminals behind bars OR increase station ratings?

    Lady Mod

    Don't misunderstand...I was not implying that the TV people had ANY interest in seeing justice done...perish the thought. These are the last people who would be concerned about that. But, there are a lot of ways to go about tormenting these scum...the ex-federal prosecutor clearly states that he could at least have a chargable case...the cop simply states jurisdictional considerations(where the calls were made from)...So you charge these maggots, force them to plea or go to court, throw them in general population when possible, if you have to release them at least they are outed in the community and maybe they will kill themselves... See, everybody wins! :p Well, almost everybody...


    And, in case you did not know...'intent' alone IS a crime in many instances, and is an essential part of any criminal case, anyway.
    Last edited by pwrone; 11-14-2005 at 10:56 AM.

  8. #8
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    Re: PERVERTS Go FREE

    Quote Originally Posted by pwrone
    Don't misunderstand...I was not implying that the TV people had ANY interest in seeing justice done...perish the thought. These are the last people who would be concerned about that. But, there are a lot of ways to go about tormenting these scum...the ex-federal prosecutor clearly states that he could at least have a chargable case...the cop simply states jurisdictional considerations(where the calls were made from)...So you charge these maggots, force them to plea or go to court, throw them in general population when possible, if you have to release them at least they are outed in the community and maybe they will kill themselves... See, everybody wins! :p Well, almost everybody...


    And, in case you did not know...'intent' alone IS a crime in many instances, and is an essential part of any criminal case, anyway.
    Intent must be proven. It's not usually a result of a set up. As far as tormenting goes, FORCING them to plea and go to court is a violation of their constitutional rights, people are innocent until PROVEN guilty. And what you suggests makes you no better than the criminal. Now what is your INTENT?

    Lady Mod

  9. #9
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    Re: PERVERTS Go FREE

    My intent is to charge them with a crime and force them to confront the evidence in a court of law, OR plead out.

  10. #10
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    Re: PERVERTS Go FREE

    Quote Originally Posted by pwrone
    My intent is to charge them with a crime and force them to confront the evidence in a court of law, OR plead out.
    while this may be your intent,it obviously is not the intent of most others.now why do you "suppose" this is.(we cant wait!!)hurry back now!!you saint you!!i'm not sayin your wrong.just pointin out your resistance to the facts.persistance by itself is no guarantee of results.in fact it will most likely lead to obsession.and obsession is almost always met with resistance.:eek: :p :rolleyes:

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