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Thread: Abortion

  1. #1
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    Abortion

    You know I try to be open-minded when I read these boards. I see people getting really angry and resorting to name-calling and petty insults and that's fine for them. There are a lot of really not so bright people in this world, but if I'm wrong then someone is right and vice-versa, correct? I mean everyone can't be right. That's the beauty of our country. We can have an opinion and let others know we have it without much fear of retribution.

    I believe that abortion is the right of the individual to choose whether or not they want to have, raise, or put up for adoption... a new life on this vastly overpopulated planet we live on. I don't think its anyone's business whether or not I do this because its not their body or their child. I accept that some people who are religous minded disagree with me and think that its wrong because God say's its wrong, but again this country is founded on the right to practice whatever religion you like.

    Let me get to the point... I'm rambling. Why do people feel the need to tell people what to do with their own bodies. Isn't Christianity based on forgive your neighbor for his sins? Why the hate and venom against people that have nothing to do with you, and have stories you have no inkling about. Why bring children into this OVERPOPULATED world that aren't wanted? Adoption isn't the cure all that some seem to think. People who have the money to adopt are generally looking for a particular type of child, from a particular type of background. A lot of the people who have abortions simply don't fit into that category and their children will go unadopted into a system that is flawed, to say the least, in most states.

    I saw an obviously George W. Bush supporter (W stickers all over the huge SUV, and anti-abortion slogans coating the back window) and I just had to shake my head. I have my opinions, but I don't try to force them down others' throats at every opportunity. Why do people feel the need to try to force other's to do what "they" think is the right thing.

    This is a pretty open ended post, but I think it fits into the Politics folder, and I hope I get good responses and not more venom.

    Have a day all.
    Last edited by HG_1301; 11-10-2005 at 04:04 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: Abortion

    Thank you H.G.

    I would like a serious, calm debate about the same issues.

    I am a person that believes in, live and let live. My opinion is not the "truth," it is just my opinion. The way I conduct my life, is my business, and in no way, do I want to impose my way of being on others.

    Sometimes I think the need to impose ideas on others, is born of fear.
    The fear of the unknown.
    The fear of difference.
    The fear of change.
    And the fear of losing control.

    When people get so angry, and passionate, I wonder; "What are you so upset about? I am not going to drag you off right now and subject you to (fill in the blank)."

    I try to stay calm, and reassure them, but that seems to make them more angry. So I allow them, their point of view, and stay available if and/or when they want to talk.

    Everyone's point of view is valid, and I want to hear them. Abortion is a touchy subject. That does not mean there is only one way of approaching the issue. I think hearing out everyone, and trying to accommodate the women and girls who have to face this most, difficult of choices, is the best way to approach

    Nothing is black and white. Nothing.

    DeeDee1965

  3. #3
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    Re: Abortion

    LMAO

    I should have known I wouldn't get many replies to a calm, even tempered post. Oh well.

  4. #4
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    Re: Abortion

    it's been like a few hours, sheesh.

  5. #5
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    Re: Abortion

    You'd be suprised how many posts go up in an hour for some of the more inflammatory threads, and new posts tend to push ones that aren't quickly responded to.

    But thanks for posting anyway!

  6. #6
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    Re: Abortion

    C'mon...you knew I would take the bait! I will play ball any time , any day. Let's play two! This is one of my favorite subjects...

    While I have no desire to witness the political explosion that the attempted overturning of 'Roe" would ignite, any late-term abortion should be illegal.(we are not talking about when a mothers life is in mortal peril, and this is the very last time that this disclaimer should be required)

    The stranglehold of information that planned parenthood locks onto each of their victims(both) must end as well. Teachers and counselers should be imprisoned for not notifying authorities in cases of child-rape.

    The notion of abortion as birth-control is encouraged by these well-meaning murderers. If we decide that covering up a crime is a crime(as it is in any other case)then violators must be punished. It is important to understand that these people do not care about anything but dead babies, just as the pro-death people(shiavo case) do not care about anything but dead people. Masked in the guise of 'friendly help-mate', they do not adequately explain the future ramifications of aborting nor do they mention the many people who are hoping to adopt a baby. A counselor from both sides of the debate should be required to sign off in front of a notary before this 'most serious of all life decisions' is allowed to take place.

  7. #7
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    Re: Abortion

    Hi Pwrone,

    You have given your opinion on why you are against abortion. Are you willing to hear the other side? I mean really hear the other side?

    While I am not speaking for HG, I have also wanted to have a debate on why people impose their point of view on others. Let me explain what I mean in this reply by "impose."


    Quote Originally Posted by pwrone
    The stranglehold of information that planned parenthood locks onto each of their victims(both) must end as well. Teachers and counselers should be imprisoned for not notifying authorities in cases of child-rape.
    The above quote uses words that are harsh, and unproductive. Stranglehold is perjorative. It leaves no room for compromise. The call for imprisoning teachers and counselors for not telling the authorities about a child being raped, implies you have personal knowledge that this is not being done. This too, leaves no room for understanding. It also can hinder the, correcting misinformation or giving information where needed.



    The notion of abortion as birth-control is encouraged by these well-meaning murderers. If we decide that covering up a crime is a crime(as it is in any other case)then violators must be punished. It is important to understand that these people do not care about anything but dead babies, just as the pro-death people(shiavo case) do not care about anything but dead people. Masked in the guise of 'friendly help-mate', they do not adequately explain the future ramifications of aborting nor do they mention the many people who are hoping to adopt a baby. A counselor from both sides of the debate should be required to sign off in front of a notary before this 'most serious of all life decisions' is allowed to take place.
    Now in this paragraph, the use of the words, murderers* and the phrase *use abortion as birth-control* stops the conversation cold. How can someone make their case, if they are going to be denounced as murderers? Healthcare providers do not say abortion is a form of birth control, but if it is asserted in a debate, how can one counter that? One way, is to say "I do not believe that," and the other side says, "Yes you do." Again conversation ended

    To say Planned Parenthood, and Women's groups *do not care about anything but dead babies*, does not help with the discussion either. There is no where to go from that statement. No one is helped, and scared, emotionally fragile women are further traumatized by a heated argument.

    This is what I mean by *imposing* the views of pro-life, or anti-abortion, on others. The weak, and frightened are left holding the bag.

    Pwrone, if you are against abortion, I respect you for that. It is your private right, to live your life the way you see fit. The favor I ask of you is, to allow women, doctors, therapists, parents, husbands, wives, and children, the courtesy of not being called murders. Not calling for the imprisonment of anyone, before all the facts are know in a case. Not to prejudge a case, based of lack of evidence. But most of all, grant them the compassion, and understanding, they need in, what you call, "[The] most serious of life's decisions."

    DeeDee1965

  8. #8
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    Re: Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee1965
    Hi Pwrone,

    You have given your opinion on why you are against abortion. Are you willing to hear the other side? I mean really hear the other side?

    While I am not speaking for HG, I have also wanted to have a debate on why people impose their point of view on others. Let me explain what I mean in this reply by "impose."




    The above quote uses words that are harsh, and unproductive. Stranglehold is perjorative. It leaves no room for compromise. The call for imprisoning teachers and counselors for not telling the authorities about a child being raped, implies you have personal knowledge that this is not being done. This too, leaves no room for understanding. It also can hinder the, correcting misinformation or giving information where needed.





    Now in this paragraph, the use of the words, murderers* and the phrase *use abortion as birth-control* stops the conversation cold. How can someone make their case, if they are going to be denounced as murderers? Healthcare providers do not say abortion is a form of birth control, but if it is asserted in a debate, how can one counter that? One way, is to say "I do not believe that," and the other side says, "Yes you do." Again conversation ended

    To say Planned Parenthood, and Women's groups *do not care about anything but dead babies*, does not help with the discussion either. There is no where to go from that statement. No one is helped, and scared, emotionally fragile women are further traumatized by a heated argument.

    This is what I mean by *imposing* the views of pro-life, or anti-abortion, on others. The weak, and frightened are left holding the bag.

    Pwrone, if you are against abortion, I respect you for that. It is your private right, to live your life the way you see fit. The favor I ask of you is, to allow women, doctors, therapists, parents, husbands, wives, and children, the courtesy of not being called murders. Not calling for the imprisonment of anyone, before all the facts are know in a case. Not to prejudge a case, based of lack of evidence. But most of all, grant them the compassion, and understanding, they need in, what you call, "[The] most serious of life's decisions."

    DeeDee1965



    Hello DeeDee, As I have said before, some of these issues seem hurtful to you...I do not know why you put yourself through it.

    Any sane person should be "against" abortion, but that does not mean that I think that making it illegal will solve anything. However, there are certain well-known practices that take place all the time that are an absolute abomination against humanity and should be outlawed. You seem to focus on the least likely scenario, and perceive that people will be endangered by any kind of legislation at all. Well, the fact is that people are endangered right now, people too small to protect themselves, people who are depending on you and me so that they might have an opportunity to have a life on earth.

    I use certain phrasing because that is how I talk. I cannot put a happy face on late-term abortion--the seperation of an infants brain-stem using a fork-like instrument inserted into the skull. These are children that , if the mother died, could be rescued from the womb and live a normal life. If you believe that a person has a right to defend themselves when under attack, then you should recognize your responsibility to act on behalf of those who are unable to defend themselves.

    The agenda and the routine illegal and immoral practices of planned parenthood have been exposed thousands of times. It is just what they do...a child looking for options will be offered only one. That is what they do, and that is all they do. They protect the identities of child molesters and do everything they can to prevent a babies life from continuing. Molesters are free to do what molesters do, and children are put to death for doing nothing. Seem fair to you?

  9. #9
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    Re: Abortion

    Hi Pwrone,

    Thank you kindly for your concern. I do really appreciate it.(In this, you know I am sincere.) :)

    I have no problem talking in a calm, rational and sane way about any issue. That is how we all, can and will find common ground. Of this I am sure. ")

    My kind friend, I, AM against abortion. What I am ALSO against is, stopping any woman from making that choice for herself. It is such a private and painful matter, the rest of us must stay out of it. Sex education in the schools, access to birth control, and ALL forms of family planning, will reduce the need for abortions. NOT accusations, character assassinations, over blown rhetoric, and the like. Those things do NOTHING to help women and their families.

    I am not asking you to "put on a happy face" about extremely difficult and sensitive matters concerning, women, their bodies, and their unborn children. I am not asking that at all. What I am calling for is, rational, calm discussion of things that people are going to do anyway.

    I know you would not want a woman to hurt herself, because she is desperate, scared, and confused. From talking to on this board, I have come to believe you are a compassionate, caring man. I live in hope, you want and maybe in some respects, would demand, that women are kept safe. And any medical procedure is done in a healthy and sterile, hospital or clinic. The procedure done by a doctor, trained to in women's health.

    To say what Planned Parenthood, does or does not do or say, with absolute certainty, does nothing to help women or their unborn children. It only fuels, name calling, recriminations, and no one is helped. Can you see that? GO to a Planned Parenthood office, and ask them, up front what they do. Ask them to explain the things you are most concerned about. If you talk to someone who seems one-sided, tell the main administrator in charge. Find out what they teach, profess, whatever.

    I as someone, who believes in a woman's right to choose, I do understand what you are saying. I can and do empathize, and have grave concerns about any kind of misinformation given to women, during this very difficult time. What we need is CORRECT information. ALL the information, not just snippets, sound bites, and pictures of dead babies, OR coathangers.

    Talking like this with you, and anyone else that wants to join in, is healthy, and needed. :)

    DeeDee1965

  10. #10
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    Re: Abortion

    Pwrone, TAKE THE EMOTION OUT OF YOUR POSTS and speak like a rational human who can actually hold an adult conversation with someone of a differing view.

    You've said you can do it, NOW DO IT.

    Lady Mod

  11. 11-11-2005, 04:37 AM


  12. #11
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    Re: Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by sojustask
    Pwrone, TAKE THE EMOTION OUT OF YOUR POSTS and speak like a rational human who can actually hold an adult conversation with someone of a differing view.

    You've said you can do it, NOW DO IT.

    Lady Mod

    I do not perceive a problem...what is yours?

  13. #12
    umdkook Guest

    Re: Abortion

    pwrone you scampered back into your hole and decided to call it "late term abortion" as an excuse for your ranting and name calling.

    your thoughts on Planned parenthood are so way off its unreal. do some real research and find out what they truely do when someone contacts them, and you would be able to speak intelligently about it.

    i guess people like you dont think that say, an 18 year old in school who lives off their parents and has no job or any way to provide for a child should just screw it and have a baby, thereby making life for all invovled extremely difficult and most likely beyond the capabilities of everyone involved. You probably say a life is more important than having a fullfilling life where you can actually be a responsible parent, or maybe that adoption is the answer, but to think that kids should have babies when they are so irresponsible that they cant even prevent theselves from getting pregnant when they know they cant handle a child (assuming there wasnt a condom breakage or some other "mistake") is just too far out there for me, and i guess many of my "LIBERAL" friends to handle.

    wow i never realized how much one person can disagree with another on so many things, and then agree with them totally on another issue. almost makes me wonder about the one we agree about...

  14. #13
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    Re: Abortion

    Hi HG,

    I have had numerous discussions on these boards (mostly with pwrone) about this topic. I completely share your opinion. I have always said that abortion is one of those "mind your own business" issues. The decision is between the female, her doctor and God - no one else. She is the ONLY one who has to answer to God for her actions...

    I do believe, however, that the law needs to be changed as far as when a fetus becomes a human being. As it stands right now, this happens at birth. I believe this should be changed to 12 weeks - this is when the umbilical cord is developed to a stage of providing nourishment to the fetus, allowing it to proceed thru the development process. Late term abortions, in my opinion, are murder. But I see this law to be the problem, not the doctors who perform the abortion. I hope to see Roberts change this aspect of abortion - but pray that he leaves Roe V. Wade alone.

    I vividly remember watching "If These Walls Could Talk" (Demi Moore, Sissy Spacek & Cher) on HBO several years ago. Cher directed this extremely graphic story about abortions before they were legal (back-alley). I think WE ALL can agree that this what we are facing again if abortions become illegal. I shutter to think what would happen..........

  15. #14
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    Re: Abortion

    I think one of the most important things a person should do before deciding for abortion or not, is definitely the circumstances (victim of sexual assault etc...)

    Some people may see abortion as a way for birth control (one person I know had 3) Instead of PREVENTING things, people tend to wait until things happen before taking action. I think this is a human flaw.

    The sad thing is there is money being made off abortions. We are seeing human aborted fetal tissue showing up in many vaccines and immunizations, (compliments of Merck predominantly.)

    In Asia, a lot of people choose to abort their child based on the sex. And even if they want to keep their jobs in some cases.

    The most important thing to consider in all of this... the woman. If ANYONE is looking at the abortion option, do research on the statistics of women who commit suicide after going through an abortion, or who are on anti-depressant drugs. Women are never the same and a lot of them even have nightmares and dreams afterwards. I can't say this is true for all of them, however, it is a big majority.

  16. #15
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    Re: Abortion

    Quote Originally Posted by pwrone
    I do not perceive a problem...what is yours?

    You wouldn't perceive a problem with yourself or your answers even if a 100 people explained it to you and showed you in black and white.

    So, I'll tell you like it is;

    You are very condescending to the point of near rudeness. Instead of allowing another to diagree with you on a mutual level you look down your nose at them like they were a bug under a microscope and should be pitied for not sharing your viewpoint.

    You also address others of differing opinions as if they were children being toilet trained. They aren't.

    And your one track, holier than thou attitude makes conversing with you in a friendly manner an exercise in massive self control, which by the way, is getting harder and harder for people (not just me) to be able to do. You are grating and offensive not only to those that consider themselves more liberal on many issues but to many who actually consider themselves conservatives.

    You don't have to agree with anyone you don't want to agree with, but you should at least show them the courtesy of speaking in the "first person" and expressing your views from the personal standpoint of how you actually feel rather than cloaking it in finding fault with the opposite opinion. And if you will look at the majority of your posts, that's EXACTLY how you relate to others.

    So get off the throne Prince Pwrone (PP) and join the rest of us in the real world.


    Lady Mod

  17. #16
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    Re: Abortion

    Hi CV, it has been awhile. :D

    I have a question for you. I do think late term abortion as extremely problematic.

    Do you ever think there is a case for late term abortion, when the baby is: viable, but the malformation of brain function, heart function, is such that, the chance for healthy, development is slim and or none?

    I guess what I mean by this question is, if a baby can live outside the mother's body, but will not grow and develop to the point of being able to take care of his/her self, are parents justified in aborting in the last trimester? However, all this is verified by, the obstetrician, and possibly,( I am not sure how this works) a heart specialist, and neurologist, trained in newborn heart, and brain development.

    What I am getting at is the complex, and difficult decisions made by parents, and doctors everyday, that are just not cut and dry situations. Sometimes the science of fetal development, and newborn babies, is so hard to understand, and in many cases unknown, that the information presented to a woman and her husband, is the "best' available at the time. I guess this is why I think the law should stay out all together.

    Now a couple who decides they want a boy instead of a girl or visa versa, I think that can be stopped by a physician. Based on their medical ethics, and responsibilities. You know, the first tenet of the Hippocratic Oath; "Do no harm."

    One more thing, CV, you mentioned the time in which a fetus becomes a human being. I have not thought really hard about the time frame. You know, "human being" is such a loaded term, it is hard for me to understand what is meant by it.

    Now your suggestion that a fetus should be seen as a human being at 12 weeks is interesting.

    Do you mean at 12 weeks, when nourishment provided by he umbilical cord, at that time, could the continued development of the fetus, be continued outside the mother?

    Please understand, I do not have any children, and my understanding is solely from reading medical books, so as a Mom, share YOUR wisdom. You would know what is going on in your womb, better then me, doctors, and men in general. ;)
    So bear with me, and educate me. :)

    DeeDee1965

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