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  1. #1
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    Which day is the true Sabbath?

    A question that seems to arise in some religious discussions. There seems to be a division amongst some as to which day is the true Sabbath which God sanctified as Holy and the day of rest for man. The day in which God himself rested, not because He needed the rest, but to show us the example. The only commandment which begins with "Remember" rather than "thou shall not..."
    The Jews still observe this day since the time of their beginnings. Sunset friday to sunset saturday. The seventh day of the week.
    Many calendars still show Sunday to Saturday. That seems to be the majority. There are some which show Monday to Sunday. Our work week is based on the latter calendar setup. Our weekends are Sat & Sun.

    The Roman empire issued a law in 321 A.D. Constantine the Great issued the law stating Sunday to be a day of rest. The Lord's day was instituted. But that is not the Sabbath day as sanctified by God. Can man change God's laws? A lot of people are familiar with Sunday school and services as was I growing up as a kid. But what is the truth? Why are some religions folowing Sunday and others Saturday?

  2. #2
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    Re: Which day is the true Sabbath?

    Hi Rawb - This gets into strange territory, and I do not mean to offend. But, I am a Jew, and you are a Christian. If I ask you if you accept Torah, your axiomatic answer is likely to be yes.

    Only you don't--not in any way that I understand the meaning of the word Torah (and it's perfectly okay that you don't). For instance--you have ten commandments, whilst in my bible there are seven for non-Jews, and 613 for Jews--365 of which are negative, and 248 of which are positive.

    Shabbat isn't a requirement for anyone but Jews, and even then, the Jewish part is optional even if you're born into it--it can't be forced on you. You take up the gig or you don't. That might not always have been the case, but it is now.

    Or are you a member of one of the Christian sects that follows kashrut, etc?

    My own feeling is that Shabbat is the greatest gift Jews gave to civilisation (let's not argue about the Babylonians doing something similar once a month--that'd be closer to celebrating Rosh Chodesh, anyway).

    If you are a Jew, you make Shabbat from 19 minutes before sundown on Friday until three prominent stars show in the sky on Saturday night. And even if you're not a Jew or not even religious at all, a day off--I mean really off--one where one doesn't try to control the environment--doesn't seem so awful. It might be considered a chance to catch your breath if nothing else.

    But if you're not Jewish, it's not relevant from the halachic (legal) perspective which day you do that on or whether you do it at all.

  3. #3
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    Re: Which day is the true Sabbath?

    Are you an Orthodox Jew or Messianic Jew? I am not sure if those are the only two. My sister-in-law and husband started attending the Messianic Jewish church. And as I understand the Jewish Religion, they still follow many of the Old Testament laws correct? Where does that leave you guys as far as the Messiah is concerned?

  4. #4
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    Re: Which day is the true Sabbath?

    Messianic Judaism is basically Southern Baptist theology with some Jewish symbols thrown in; it's the Southern Baptists who spend hundreds of millions of dollars each year to keep it going. It's not a recognised form of Judaism by any form of Judaism or by the State of Israel. Messianics are legally Christians, they cannot go to live in Israel under the right of return. If you believe that Jesus was a god or a demigod, or that any other human was, is, or could be a god or a demigod then you're not a Jew, as we believe that no person could ever be G-d, and that G-d is one.

    I'm renewal myself, which is, I think, the smallest recognised branch of Judaism (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Renewal being the lot, and actually a whole lot closer theologically than most non-Jewish folks might realise).

    The Jewish messiah has not yet come. He will be a mortal man, and he brings peace to all nations, along with lots of other good things--you don't need to 'believe in' the messiah, because it'll be obvious who he is when he gets here--by his deeds. Nor would anyone worship the messiah, worship is reserved for Hashem alone.

    We don't have an apocalyptic theology. We believe that there is someone born in every generation who is qualified to be the Messiah, if we did but get our act together. He will come when humanity is well on its way to repairing the world--and healing the world is one of the biggest things that Judaism is about.

    We believe that all religions have something to bring to the table in this task, ours is stuff like--survival in exile, environmental sensitivity, any number of things that date back to the Torah (one of our holy days celebrates the creation of trees--because they give so much to sustain life).

    The way we see it, the more good we do, the more it tips the world's scales in favour of survival (logical when you think about it), and the more good it creates more or less by contagion, if you will. And the Messiah and the messianic age will happen when we're ready for the earth to be the Garden of Eden once more.

    We don't have a concept of personal salvation, nor is there dogma about an afterlife, though most of us believe in reincarnation. We don't proselytise, as there is no need for anyone to be Jewish to live a good life or to know G-d, and there is no 'supernatural' or 'afterlife' penalty for anyone, regardless of what they do or don't believe.

    We believe that Hashem is good, and we believe that the laws exist so that we can live in an ethical and civilised way--hopefully healing the damage in the world and at the very least not causing harm.

    Short version anyway :)

  5. #5
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    Re: Which day is the true Sabbath?

    So what are most Jews in Israel? (out of the list of different branches of Judaism you listed above; Orthodox, conservative etc...) So do yo believe that Israel was delivered by God out of the bondage of Egypt? And when was the Shabbat observed for the first time? What year was that? And was one of the reasons the Romans changed their Sabbath to Sunday because the Romans didn't like the Jews? From my studies, the feeling was mutual. The Jews were awaiting the Messiah to come and deliver them from the hands of the Romans correct ? Was it 34 A.D that Jerusalem fell? I forget who captured the city. Will have to brush up on history again. :confused:

  6. #6
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    Re: Which day is the true Sabbath?

    If I'm not mistaken, most Jews in Israel are secular. After that, Orthodox would be the biggest denomination.

    If you're asking if I personally believe that the literal text of the story of the exodus is true--no, I don't. We've found precious little evidence to substantiate it, and even then you'd end up having to move around chronologies, boundaries of kingdoms, and such to the point where it's beyond credulity. For me. Many people do believe it's a literal story. Me, I think the story is very important in what it teaches, but I don't see how it could have happened as written.

    The dislike between the Jews and the Romans was mutual, but the Jews hardly posed a threat to the Roman empire--the Jews weren't crucifying tens of thousands of Romans, sacking their temples, and all the rest of that particularly gorey bit of history. The Romans were doing that to the Jews, the Jews were seriously outnumbered.

    As for changing Shabbat to Sunday, a couple of things--yes, obviously to make a distinction between the Jewish holy day, and also, Rome was in possession of 30,000 some-odd gods they'd captured from various tribes at the time. Not to mention the Caesars--Augustus was the first Roman messiah, he predated the time Jesus might have lived by about 100 years I think? (I'm bad on dates, too), and was the first Pontifex Maximus, the supreme bridge between the gods and humanity. And the most predominant gods were sun gods, so they were worshipped on sun-day.

    The Roman occupation of Jerusalem happened well before 34 CE, I do know that, the second temple itself fell in 70 CE on the 10th of Av, if memory serves (it often doesn't on precise dates though), and the Bar Kochba rebellion was some years later.

    Or were you talking about a different occupation? The whole area was a mess geopolitically for quite some years in there--Antiochus was long before the Romans, but I don't remember which year, sorry--I'm sure it's readily available in history books, I just don't have one to hand.
    Last edited by ComplexKid; 11-07-2005 at 12:21 PM.

  7. #7
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    Re: Which day is the true Sabbath?

    dear and beloved CK.are you a "foo fighter"!i'm watchin one of their videos as i type!hehe!hey!i just watched the "matrix series"(movie) again!cant help noticin the reference to ZION in that movie!!have you seen the series!?(3 movies)!?so western!!so techno/future oriented!!created and directed by 2 polack(polish descent)brothers!!it's all good!!now or neverland!! :eek: :D :rolleyes:

  8. #8
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    Re: Which day is the true Sabbath?

    Saw the first one, yes--all kinds of spiffy refs in there aren't there?

    Oh yeah--clear out your friggin PM box, Lexxie, got a mesage for ya!

  9. #9
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    Re: Which day is the true Sabbath?

    Quote Originally Posted by ComplexKid
    Saw the first one, yes--all kinds of spiffy refs in there aren't there?

    Oh yeah--clear out your friggin PM box, Lexxie, got a mesage for ya!
    whaaaaaaaat!!nuthin showin in PM!?and what's with the "lexxie" reference!?!?:eek: :D :rolleyes:
    Last edited by lexx; 11-08-2005 at 11:28 AM.

  10. #10
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    Re: Which day is the true Sabbath?

    Maybe it's disabled? Try PM'ing me?

  11. #11
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    Re: Which day is the true Sabbath?

    Quote Originally Posted by ComplexKid
    Maybe it's disabled? Try PM'ing me?
    my quota was full!!WHO KNEW!!i hate limits!!guess i'm a liberal!!:eek: :D :rolleyes:

  12. #12
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    Re: Which day is the true Sabbath?

    Jewish Sabbath works for me, it's the oldest, right? i agree, a day off in contemplation, meditation on good works, a nature walk, etc. is probably a Holy thing to do.

    cole

  13. #13
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    Re: Which day is the true Sabbath?

    Interestingly enough, Kevin Trudeau even has a spot in his book "Natural Cures..." that mentions resting from sunset friday to sunset saturday. He says this is because of the moon cycle that is in postion to promote healing and rejuvenation. If that is the case, God even has more evidence of the true sabbath. (page 139 Natural Cures)

  14. #14
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    Re: Which day is the true Sabbath?

    Quote Originally Posted by ComplexKid
    Messianic Judaism is basically Southern Baptist theology with some Jewish symbols thrown in; it's the Southern Baptists who spend hundreds of millions of dollars each year to keep it going. It's not a recognised form of Judaism by any form of Judaism or by the State of Israel. Messianics are legally Christians, they cannot go to live in Israel under the right of return. If you believe that Jesus was a god or a demigod, or that any other human was, is, or could be a god or a demigod then you're not a Jew, as we believe that no person could ever be G-d, and that G-d is one.

    I'm renewal myself, which is, I think, the smallest recognised branch of Judaism (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, Renewal being the lot, and actually a whole lot closer theologically than most non-Jewish folks might realise).

    The Jewish messiah has not yet come. He will be a mortal man, and he brings peace to all nations, along with lots of other good things--you don't need to 'believe in' the messiah, because it'll be obvious who he is when he gets here--by his deeds. Nor would anyone worship the messiah, worship is reserved for Hashem alone.

    We don't have an apocalyptic theology. We believe that there is someone born in every generation who is qualified to be the Messiah, if we did but get our act together. He will come when humanity is well on its way to repairing the world--and healing the world is one of the biggest things that Judaism is about.

    We believe that all religions have something to bring to the table in this task, ours is stuff like--survival in exile, environmental sensitivity, any number of things that date back to the Torah (one of our holy days celebrates the creation of trees--because they give so much to sustain life).

    The way we see it, the more good we do, the more it tips the world's scales in favour of survival (logical when you think about it), and the more good it creates more or less by contagion, if you will. And the Messiah and the messianic age will happen when we're ready for the earth to be the Garden of Eden once more.

    We don't have a concept of personal salvation, nor is there dogma about an afterlife, though most of us believe in reincarnation. We don't proselytise, as there is no need for anyone to be Jewish to live a good life or to know G-d, and there is no 'supernatural' or 'afterlife' penalty for anyone, regardless of what they do or don't believe.

    We believe that Hashem is good, and we believe that the laws exist so that we can live in an ethical and civilised way--hopefully healing the damage in the world and at the very least not causing harm.

    Short version anyway :)

    but......you do realize that new testamant scripture says that a "peacemaker" will come and he will be the "antichrist" in the flesh.now what does this mean as far as judaism is concerned?!? well you said it yourself as he will be the "redeemer" as far as judaism is concerned.as 'FAR' as judaism is concerned.so words are words and facts are facts so where is the confusion or disagreement!?you said it yourself....acts!!so the question is.........how deep do we go!?how much do we scrutinize the acts of those we follow!?and dont say we dont follow!!for who is perfected in his ways!!and by what standard do we judge our own behavior!!depends on the support we recieve for same..........or not!!i admire your system of support!!would it cover the world!!i only wish i had the same!!why is it not happening for me!?or others!?seems suspicious in nature!!but alas i am alone in my life and feel the true meaning of public!!or immigrant or despised or outcast.so be it.for i am a part of the flock or creation of god like all others.my life is a testament for his will as all others.my only solace is in the statement(new testament).the first shall be last and ........... :eek: :D :rolleyes:
    Last edited by lexx; 11-10-2005 at 09:41 AM.

  15. #15
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    Re: Which day is the true Sabbath?

    Quote Originally Posted by ComplexKid
    Saw the first one, yes--all kinds of spiffy refs in there aren't there?

    Oh yeah--clear out your friggin PM box, Lexxie, got a mesage for ya!
    definately complete the series!!it will enlighten your mind!!or confuse it!!it did mine at first!!but due to american(imported) technology i can watch it over and over again!!all 3!!and the ease of it definately is a built in discouragement!but anyway "matrix reloaded" is a definate "trip"!!and the "revolutions" is really a backward ending!!like the whole thing is a backward to the future trip!!WHO KNEW!!check it all out if you can!!the polacks definately got a tale to tell!!it's all about storys.....right!?!which one "works" for you!!:D ;) :rolleyes:

  16. #16
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    22

    Re: Which day is the true Sabbath?

    Speaking on a couple of subjects....
    Independant, fundamental Baptists believe that Saturday is the 7th Day or Sabbath. They attend Church on Sunday because of many examples in the Bible where God commanded the first day to be for him. He also commanded the first of many things belong to him.
    The "anti-christ" as the name implies, is the opposite of Christ. Son of Satan incarnate. Just as Jesus Christ is the Son of God incarnate. For each member of the Holy Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Ghost), there is an opposite (Satan, Anti-christ, False Prophet) seen in Revelation 16:13. The Satanic Trinity.
    Not getting into a Theological debate here. Just providing another point of view.

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