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Thread: A Proposition.

  1. #1
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    A Proposition.

    First, I'd like to say this is a great board. Lively discussion, and regardless of the views of the individuals, and weather or not I agree with them, at least everyone here is thinking about, and discussing the issues. The only
    collective asset we have, regardless of political slant, personal ideology, or religious creed, is an informed and engaged populous.

    Now, on to my proposition.

    All of us, right, left, center, radical, centrist, religious, agnostic, spiritual, atheist. We argue incessantly, and though it is good for some satisfying intellectual intercourse for the more cerebral among us, it has no direct and tangible effect on life. Now, I'm not the sort to argue, I prefer to watch others argue, and learn everything I can from it. I peruse boards like this and read people view points, to make sure I'm not missing anything. This board really got me thinking and, for once, I'm going to throw my opinion in.

    We will never agree. We will never find common ground. We are not one people. What is good for one group of people, will be bad for another group of people. We cannot unite, and trying to get us to is silly. We have to face facts, America needs to be split up. There is no "American People" nor is there a common good that our government can help facilitate. We have to, in the interest of freedom, peace, and to honor the legacy of the once great America, face facts, and officially recognize what is already self evident - America is no more, and separate ideologically independent (and incompatible) nations have arisen in it's place.

    Here's my vision. America should be split up into separate sovereign meta-states. Examples may be New England, Southern Atlantic States, Mid-west South, Mid-West North, West Coast.These states would be individual sovereign nations who could govern as they see fit, trade as they see fit, educate as they see fit, etc. They could be loosely joined by a non aggression pact and a symposium for airing grievances that may arise between the states (trade, border disputes, etc). Our country is divided on very clear, distinct, and concrete ideological lines. What's good for New York or Boston is good for New York or Boston - not for Houston or Salt Lake City - and vice
    versa.

    If the majority of people in, say, Mid-West South wanted a Christian Theocratic Government that denies rights on the basis of ones religious views, then let them. If that is their will far-beit for Boston to tell them not to. If New England wants complete and total separation of church and state including taxation of churches, and homosexuality recognized as completely equal with heterosexuality, legally and morally, then farbeit for Houston to tell them otherwise.

    I don't want to state my personal political beliefs, and I don't believe they can be completely divined from what I've just written. I don't want this
    to be seen as a typical us versus them argument. So, if your a leftist, this isn't a right wing idea that you need to fight against, and if your a
    right winger this isn't a leftist idea that you need to argue with. The common good is not a team sport, and there can be no winner if everyone loses
    in one way or another.

    I've been hatching this idea for a long while now, and the more I see, the more I believe that it is the only way to preserve us. What better way to
    honor the legacy of that nation called "The United States of America" than to set aside some of our ego and power in the interest of one thing we can all agree on. Freedom. Freedom to be governed by your peers, who come from your land, and share your cultural heritage. Freedom to determine the destiny of your land, your people, and yourself, without the will of people thousands of miles away from you being imposed on you.

    Thanks for reading, hope this provokes discussion.

  2. #2
    tommywho70x Guest

    Re: A Proposition.

    Welcome to Scam, ZylogZ80.

    Your primary posting is filled with very interesting CONceptualizations, particularly about the value of a well-informed and engaged populace.

    I'm not going to try to critique your re-districting beyond saying that I don't think that I could support that. You may want to beef up your flame-retardant capabilities though if you are going to throw exceptional ideas like that around this Monkey House.

  3. #3
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    Re: A Proposition.

    Zylog, Hello and Welcome, :D

    What you propose has been done at the beginning of this country. It was the Articles of Confederation. The reason the Constitution was written was because the Articles, did not safeguard the boarders, trade, threat of annexation, or internal armed conflict.

    In the Constitution proper, what you proposed, is seen as a good idea, but the national "face" was given legitimacy. If you have not read the Constitution (and for give me if you have) give it a read. Also the Articles of Confederation. You might be surprised.

    Of course thing s have changed in over 200 years. We are a bigger country. We now are a super power. but more importantly, we are part and parcel of the world community. Tearing this country asunder, would damage not only the citizens here, but the US citizens abroad, our allies, our neighbors.

    We do not have to agree. That is why the Constitution was written. The framers KNEW people would not agree on most things. That is why the laws and responsibilities in the constitution were hammered out, and then ratified by the states in existence at the time. All we have to do is follow the basic of the Constitution and arguing, becomes an exercise in mental, spiritual growth.

    Please write again and tell me what you think. :)

    DeeDee1965

  4. #4
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    Re: A Proposition.

    Thanks for the replies.

    To tommy, I wouldn't expect that people would be quick to support an idea as seemingly radical as mine. Give it some thought though, as I feel that as lacking as it may be, there is merit in there somewhere. As far as it's effects on the world at large, I do not pretend to have all, or even close to some, of the answers to the problems that face our peoples, but I wished to finally say something, as up to now I haven't.

    To DeeDee, I relize that my idea is not new. Though the original Articles of Confederation and Constituion express a similar concept, the Constitution is unequipped to deal with the myriad of situations that have cropped up in the past 230 some-odd years - it is, sadly and regretably, obsolete. The problem with America as it is currently organized is, I believe, simply one of physical size. America is too vast an area to realistically support one single coheasive free country. Whenever you have a large area supporting a large population, individual cultures eventually crop up, with various disparates traits diverging and converging between populations. The growth of of the Romance languages out of the Latin vulgate is one example of this (imho).

    Over the past 230 years America has grown from New England and the Atlantic Coast to cover the entire region we know as the contiguos 48 today. There has always been a diversity of opinion in America, but, as America has grown wider so to has the gap between these ideas, and the number of people who support them. There is no middle ground between Democratic Socialism and Theocratic Dominionism, yet these two camps have large numbers of adherants in this country, and that is but one example. Whatever compromises we reach as a people will not meet the needs of enough people in any place. Why should Texas be ruled by DC? Why should Massachusetts? There is no middle ground between these places, they are as different from eachother, in culture, custom and heritage, as the UK and India, or Australia and China. How could these two places be seen as part of one coheasive unit, and how is it fair, or just, to either population to be ruled over, in part or in whole, by the other. America is an exceptional place, and because of this faces exceptional circumstances. Our unique combination of heritage, landmass, population (density and dispursment), and many other factors had led us to a point where a fundemental revaluation of what America means must be made.

  5. #5
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    Re: A Proposition.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZylogZ80
    Thanks for the replies.

    To tommy, I wouldn't expect that people would be quick to support an idea as seemingly radical as mine.
    I don't think it would work. Why you may ask? Because people live where they live for either the job market, the climate, scenery, housing, different things, BUT not for political associations. Now to tell people back east they must move out west to live because of similar political ideologies, well, it's not gonna float.

    Namaste'

    Lady Mod

  6. #6
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    Re: A Proposition.

    Hi Zylog... welcome to scam - :)

    You ARE a thinker, that's for sure! What you have posted here is an interesting read. In my mind, I picture way too many borders! We can't keep people out of the ones we have NOW.. I can't imagine what a fiasco it would be to have this many more... :eek:

  7. #7
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    Re: A Proposition.

    Hi Zylog,

    The size, different ideologies, religions, cultures, languages, are, and will be forevermore a challenge. But these differences alone, are not necessarily divisive. We DO NOT have to live with people we agree with. We are a country of laws. The law is what binds us together.It keeps us safe, and allows for economic growth. A person can believe, feel, be anything they want, just as long as they FOLLOW THE LAW. Breaking the law, is the disturbance, not cultural, religious, Etc., differences.

    We are not so different that we cannot stay together as a united country. Texas, and Massachusetts is not so *fundamentally* different, that basic human rights, criminal statues, and civil law do not apply.

    Our history is the same. The colonists, the Native Americans, the framers, the slaves, the immigrants, share a common history. Is it the same STORY, no. The Constitution binds us. The bright idea of a document that governs men and women with laws, and not religion, class, was a very, very, good idea. True, it is messy, hard, painful, and sometimes it seems there is no common ground. But there is common ground, we are governed by laws, and not the vagaries of the human mind.

    Let me ask you something. How do you propose these seperate little "meta states" would trade with other countries, defend themselves, and make laws? And why is your proposition based on the cultural, religious differences? Do you think these things are fundamental to a working and thriving society? Is agreement, and total commonality the best thing for a country, or a people?

    DeeDee1965 :)
    Last edited by DeeDee1965; 11-01-2005 at 02:51 AM.

  8. #8
    tommywho70x Guest

    Re: A Proposition.

    What is needed is a restoration of eminent domain and personal sovereignty for established homesteaders, their tenants and neighbors so that they can rule their own lives from wherever they live in outwardly expanding concentric circles of influence extending from the municipal to the county, state and federal levels using the system of checks and balances that was consented upon as a nation of CITIZEN(~$~) in the United States Constitution, Bill of Rights and the body of law that has been evolving since the constitution was first ratified in 1789.

  9. #9
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    Re: A Proposition.

    Good Post newbie. Not to be confrontational, but, I think I have you pegged as a left-leaning libertarian. No self-respecting conservative would wish for a:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zylogz80
    Christian Theocratic Government
    You could have broken your differences down to small government vs. big brother government. There are many conservatives that don't see any need for religion and many liberals that aren't willing to accept the gay-marriage thing. But I said that I didn't want to be confrontational, so I'll stop there.


    Someone else mentioned a big border mess. lookin' at the map here,
    http://www-personal.umich.edu/~mejn/...dbluelarge.png
    This is going to be a hellva lot of fenceline.


    I'm really just messing with you. I thought that your idea was enlightening. I think some Religious group is trying to take over North Carolina or somewhere like that right now as we speak. Eventually they want to separate from the country, develop their own constitution and maintain their own malitia. Pretty crazy when you think about it. :cool:

    Welcome to the boards ----- raider

  10. #10
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    Re: A Proposition.

    To Lady Mod, I agree that many people choose move for a variety of reasons, some of which you mentioned. I would argue, however, that far more people live where they live simply because it's where they were born. The vast majority of people who I know and know-of live within a state-or-two of where they are born. Though using one's self as an example is not a good test, none but the smallest handful of my relatives and ancestors have moved more than 2 states away from where I too now live. I think that mobility is also intrinsically linked to financial standing. I believe that if you were to graph out the number of people who relocate and over-lay that with financial data, there would be a positive correlation - I have not tested this, so it's only a conjecture.

    Based on this, I assume that most people will conform, with varying degrees of rigidity, to the cultural norms around them, that they grow up around, and that they will probably stay around. Of course there are exceptions to everything, but I find this correlates with my daily experience. I speak with people from my region, people I know well and aquaintences alike, and they, more often or not, agree with a varying degree of what I'm saying - not often in total, but usualy in part. I read the views of people from certain other backgrounds and locations and I am left in shock, there are beliefs and idealologies out there, the adherents to which, I would be afraid to even be in the same room with.

    In the end, I think it's a small concern in the face of the many ramifications (both positive and negative) of my idea.

    To DeeDee - The divisions in society that arise from cultural differention and specialzation occur naturaly. They are not what I would suggest as optimal, but, it is a natural by-product of our being such amazingly social creatures. You see this in almost every place on the planet. America is unique because the ideaology came first, the culture and society grew from that. It has happened in exactly the opposite way in most other places. Look at the size of European countries as compared to the United States. Look at Africa. Look at Eastern Europe's immediate split up with the fall of the USSR. Most places that are unified nationally, but large geographically, have a great concentration of their population in a comparitavely small geographical area. Australia, China, and Russia illustrate this (though China may be debatable, I don't have the proper data.). I believe that these factors support the idea that America's geographical size and population densities have naturally produced distinct, seperate and sometimes incompatible cultures - and that this divide will only become more defined.

    Sorry to everyone for my long-windedness - it's always been a weakness of mine. It's part of why I was never active on forums. :)
    Last edited by ZylogZ80; 11-01-2005 at 04:00 AM. Reason: used assumption where I should have used conjecture.

  11. #11
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    Re: A Proposition.

    To Raider - Thanks for reading and I will consider your speculation of my political bent an act of flattery. I only picked those two particular schools of thought becuase they exist in America today and are (arguably) diametrically opposed. I wouldn't equate "conservitism" (as I understand it) with Theocratic Dominionism, nor was I usuing those examples as substitutes for conservative and liberal. Your example would also show a divide in opinon, and there are many, many others - and I believe they are fairly regional.

    I have seen maps such as that before, I assume based on voting patters. I believe that binary voting patterns, though possibly usefull as a vauge guidline, do not adequately represent the deeper and more varied behaviors known and norms that define a culture. Though overall, it shows a striking visual division regardless.

  12. #12
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    Re: A Proposition.

    Hi,

    Can you answer this question: What do you think about the laws that govern this country and it's divergent population?

    It seems to me the laws, check unruliness in check and protect us at the same time. What do you think?

    DeeDee1965

  13. #13
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    Re: A Proposition.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZylogZ80
    To Lady Mod, I agree that many people choose move for a variety of reasons, some of which you mentioned. I would argue, however, that far more people live where they live simply because it's where they were born. The vast majority of people who I know and know-of live within a state-or-two of where they are born. Though using one's self as an example is not a good test, none but the smallest handful of my relatives and ancestors have moved more than 2 states away from where I too now live. I think that mobility is also intrinsically linked to financial standing. I believe that if you were to graph out the number of people who relocate and over-lay that with financial data, there would be a positive correlation - I have not tested this, so it's only a conjecture.

    Based on this, I assume that most people will conform, with varying degrees of rigidity, to the cultural norms around them, that they grow up around, and that they will probably stay around. Of course there are exceptions to everything, but I find this correlates with my daily experience. I speak with people from my region, people I know well and aquaintences alike, and they, more often or not, agree with a varying degree of what I'm saying - not often in total, but usualy in part. I read the views of people from certain other backgrounds and locations and I am left in shock, there are beliefs and idealologies out there, the adherents to which, I would be afraid to even be in the same room with.

    In the end, I think it's a small concern in the face of the many ramifications (both positive and negative) of my idea.
    :)

    The states are sovereign entities already. However, they limited their sovereignty in some areas to the central governing power in Washington D.C. called the Federal government.

    Federal meaning in pertaining to, or founded upon and organized by a compact or act of union between separate sovereign states by a permanent act of union founded on the consent of the people duly expressed, constituting a government supreme within the sphere of the powers granted to it by that act of union, as the United States of America.

    That happened in 1789 when the United States went from being a confederation before the Constitution went into affect to become a Federal nation afterwards. The government is called federal because it was formed by a compact (the Constitution) among 13 political units (the states). The 13 states agreed to give up part of their independence, or sovereignty, in order to form a central authority and submit themselves to it. Thus, what was essentially a group of 13 separate countries under the Articles of Confederation united to form one nation under the Constitution.

    But the states are still sovereign in many capacities. It's the people living in them that forget that they are sovereigns and insist on being divided politically. I just don't see the wisdom in trying to divide the country into 4 states rather than 50. Eventually what you see today in 50 states would still be the reality in 4.

    So, I guess I'm not a conformist, I have family all over the country. My husband is only 2nd generation in this country, coming from Germany. Besides which, living in Texas is just like living in a better country, lol. We may have different ideologies but we are all Americans.

    Namaste'

    Lady Mod

  14. #14
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    Re: A Proposition.

    DeeDee, I do not have an overall generall opinion on all the laws that govern this country. Codes of behavior are important to any coheasive society, but have to be derived from that culture, and not imposed on it by a foreign culture. Wheather it's in the form of the colonialism of yesteryear, or our current system. I have opinions on individual laws and issues that pertain to me, and my state, and my region, but I don't have any opinions on, nor do I want to impose any on forein lands, wheather those lands be a officially recognized seperate and distinct entity (such as another country) or an unrecognized but equally seperate and distinct entity (such as another region of this country that is culturally different than mine).

    Mod, I believe that federalism is logical and can be applied to America, but that federalism requires there be a united culture that the united goverment represents, is bound to, and bound by. Basically, I propose that fedarlism can only work in certain conditions, which is reasonable, as no system operates equally well (or at all) in all possible conditions and configurations. What precedant is there for a federal republic of our size, cultural diversity, and population density? In fact, if you look at any state of comporable size or diversity, in the totality of human history, it is almost always a totalitarian country - a monarchy, a dictatorship, an empire, etc. Fedarlism cannot be the tie that binds, but has to reflect and work with pre-existant cultural ties. I do not advocate splitting the United States up into seperate entities, as that would be redundant, I propose that it has done that of it's own accord, and that we can mitigate bloodshed by recognizing this. We cannot accept that documents and ideas hatched 200 some-odd years ago are so perfect and immutable as to warrent a "permanent act of union" when even the wisest of our forebarers could never have had the forsight, or the data needed to anticipate what was to come.
    Last edited by ZylogZ80; 11-01-2005 at 06:22 AM.

  15. #15
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    Re: A Proposition.

    Hey there Zy...
    Welcome to scam... there's, usually, never a dull moment. You do pose an interesting idea, but for the reasons already mentioned... and the fact that something similar was tried in the 1860's (that didn't pan out so well for one region). I don't believe it will gain acceptance beyond that of an interesting idea.

    Plus, It could not take place without first completely dismantling the existing socio-economic-military-industrial-governmental-etal structure of the country... and that my friend ain't gonna happen.

    cheers,
    Paul

  16. #16
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    Re: A Proposition.

    Paul, I don't believe for a second that my idea could be applied in real life (in our current situation, that is). It's a hypothetical resoloution to what is, whether it's being discussed at large or not, a very real problem. Unfortuantely I do believe, that because we do not have the agility and institutions needed to respond to this problem, that it will cause much grater harm when it happens by violent means. I don't know what the original union was intended to behave like, the documentaiton is to open to interpretation, what I do know is that we don't have any system in place to deal with these concepts, as the studies of sociology, group psychology, anthropolgy, etc. were not available for consultation and consideration at the time that our system of governement was instantiated. No one would venture to run a business in the manner that one would have in 1780, or 1860 or even 1960, why are we so unable to accept that we cannot run a country the way we did then either?

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