+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 16 of 32

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    56

    ACN - what's the deal?

    Excuse me for my ignorance, but what's up with ACN on scam.com? Apparently it was the subject of the biggest thread of this forum but got removed? I found another decent one but it was locked. The couple others were still open but outdated and I'd rather not bump.

    I'd like to get a new discussion started about ACN, but if it's gonna get deleted because it's somehow not allowed I'd rather know about it.

    In the meanwhile, an interesting site about it
    http://acnpyramidscheme.com/

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    NY
    Posts
    116

    Re: ACN - what's the deal?

    Like most pay to play deals on this forum, they come and go, ACN had been beat on for years, yet they are still in business, so who knows why thread was removed, I remember it was a big one. lol

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    56

    Re: ACN - what's the deal?

    Fair enough.

    Well on the topic then, I've stated my opinion in other threads before, but I feel ACN is a pyramid scheme. Yes they sell legit services, which have been shown not to be competitive. Reps are told to ask for "favors" from friends & family in order to get sign-ups. I can list many other things, but let me break down the costs :

    - $500 upon sign-up.
    - $150 yearly renewal
    - $40 optional monthly "Business Assistant" website / tools
    - $5-$10 weekly meetings
    - 1-2 national & international events. you have to pay for tickets + travel + all your other expenses

    So the average joe that will get lured into ACN because it's such an awesome opportunity will have over $1,500 in expenses in his first year (if he doesn't give up and pursue the dream) while earning an average of $500 a year.

    Yes refunds are possible within 10 days of signing up, but more often than not it is not mentioned, and let's be honest, the recruiters don't let you see enough in 10 days so you don't quit too soon.

    Yes you can get refunded your $500 if you sign up 2 people under you within a week (or 10 days, can't remember). The thing is this creates an endless chain. Reps will use this argument to recruit people "Hey you can get refunded if you recruit people, so simple right!" But in the end, with simple maths, this doesn't add up. For every $500 refunded, a new $1000 is generated. This $1000 is refunded, $4000 is generated.

    Like most MLM disguised as pyramid schemes out there, the guys at the top that claim they make tons of money are actually making money. But that's because they rake in ~50% of all the $500 that new IBOs pay upon signup.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    3,928

    Re: ACN - what's the deal?

    [QUOTE=Deagle;1829632]Fair enough.

    Well on the topic then, I've stated my opinion in other threads before, but I feel ACN is a pyramid scheme. Yes they sell legit services, which have been shown not to be competitive. Reps are told to ask for "favors" from friends & family in order to get sign-ups. I can list many other things, but let me break down the costs :

    - $500 upon sign-up.
    - $150 yearly renewal
    - $40 optional monthly "Business Assistant" website / tools
    - $5-$10 weekly meetings
    - 1-2 national & international events. you have to pay for tickets + travel + all your other expenses

    So the average joe that will get lured into ACN because it's such an awesome opportunity will have over $1,500 in expenses in his first year (if he doesn't give up and pursue the dream) while earning an average of $500 a year.
    Does the "average joe" who signs up actually then pay for all that other stuff? Is there any other benefit to signing up (eg cheaper products)

    Yes refunds are possible within 10 days of signing up, but more often than not it is not mentioned, and let's be honest, the recruiters don't let you see enough in 10 days so you don't quit too soon.
    Only 10 days? That's absurdly short.

    Yes you can get refunded your $500 if you sign up 2 people under you within a week (or 10 days, can't remember).
    Is there any product sales needed as part of that?

    The thing is this creates an endless chain.
    unlikely. Compensation plans are designed with "breaks" in them, much like in traditional distribution where you might get -

    Manufacturer->distributor A->distributor B->distributor C->consumer

    and eventually distributor C may get big enough so he can now deal direct with the Manufacturer (or Distributor A) and expand his own operations.

    Manufacturer->distributor C->consumer
    \-> distributor D->consumer

    I may be wrong but I assume ACN is similar.

    Like most MLM disguised as pyramid schemes out there, the guys at the top that claim they make tons of money are actually making money. But that's because they rake in ~50% of all the $500 that new IBOs pay upon signup.
    Again, I need to check out the compensation plan, but as I mentioned in the other thread that $500 signup sounds excessive - what do you get for it?

    New to scam.com? This is what you can expect from MLM critics in support of their claims ....


    Why the f-u-c-k do you need evidence all the time? - Zapticon
    You know that I don't provide proof of my claims - Once Upon A Time
    I have the information but I'm not posting it - Joecool


  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    56

    Re: ACN - what's the deal?

    Quote Originally Posted by IBOFightBack View Post
    Does the "average joe" who signs up actually then pay for all that other stuff? Is there any other benefit to signing up (eg cheaper products)
    The monthly $39.99 business assistant (click here for more info) is the only one that is truly "optional", although it's sold as a tool to help you reach success much faster of course.

    You must go to weekly meetings ($5-$10 each) as well as training events where you have to cover your own expenses. Well of course training isn't free so I agree with that argument to an extent. The problem is that like with most cult-like MLMs, those events are totally useless other than hyping you with techno music and successful ACNers sharing their success story.

    And if you do not go to the events, your sponsor / upline will say you're not taking this seriously and will not "invest time with people who put in no effort". So either you pay the price or give up (losing your $500). And that is after they convinced you ACN only costs $500, like a gym membership right?. Except after a year you're down a grand because no one told you about all the other costs associated with your "business".


    Quote Originally Posted by IBOFightBack View Post
    Is there any product sales needed as part of that?
    There is no need to sell any product for this.

    Quote Originally Posted by IBOFightBack View Post
    Again, I need to check out the compensation plan, but as I mentioned in the other thread that $500 signup sounds excessive - what do you get for it?
    They claim they offer all the customer service side of things that you would normally have to pay for in a business (refunds, complaints, etc) as well as a "website" (subdomain XY.acndirect.com or something similar) that is basically the same template for everyone and is worth absolutely nothing. At least they could offer a real domain name a legitimate templates instead of the same thing for everyone.

    Totally not worth $500 imo. Like I once stated, remove the $500, or at least lower it to at least $50 and everything about ACN would be ok. The issue with that is since their prices are not competitive at all, there is no way many people will sign up with them. Hence the "favor" that you must ask your friends and family to sign up under you. They know it's not competitive and total garbage, they just need a way to make this pyramid scheme appear legitimate, and it works.
    Last edited by Deagle; 03-04-2015 at 08:43 AM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    3,928

    Re: ACN - what's the deal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deagle View Post
    The monthly $39.99 business assistant (click here for more info) is the only one that is truly "optional", although it's sold as a tool to help you reach success much faster of course.
    Looks reasonably useful, so I've no real problem with that.

    You must go to weekly meetings ($5-$10 each) as well as training events where you have to cover your own expenses.
    must? what happens if you don't?

    Well of course training isn't free so I agree with that argument to an extent. The problem is that like with most cult-like MLMs, those events are totally useless other than hyping you with techno music and successful ACNers sharing their success story.
    Never been to an ACN meeting but I hear the same criticism of similar Amway-related events, and I thoroughly disagree. I've been involved in numerous startups over the past 20 years and the stuff I've learned at these kind of events has been invaluable to me. I have a downline now in the process of setting up a personal training consultancy and quitting his job as a teacher and we spoke last weekend and he said something like - "all the stuff I have to do to get this off the ground is just what they were teaching at the N21 events!"

    What I find is that people who think they're "totally useless" have rarely been involved in startups.

    You know what I'm doing right now for my main project? Working out how to source and then do a list of all potential partners and customers, categorising them in to different groups based on how (or if) we think we can provide value for them. Developing telephone scripts and a process for contacting them and organising appointments. How to handle "objections" and followups. Working out a systemetised approach for all of this so we can expand city by city and country by country.

    All stuff I learned to do through my involvement with Amway.

    And if you do not go to the events, your sponsor / upline will say you're not taking this seriously and will not "invest time with people who put in no effort".
    If you get results your upline will invest time in you. I'll put it this way - if you have to prioritise your time, would you first spend it with people who listen to your advice and act on it, or people who don't?

    So either you pay the price or give up (losing your $500). And that is after they convinced you ACN only costs $500, like a gym membership right?. Except after a year you're down a grand because no one told you about all the other costs associated with your "business".
    Well that's up to the individuals involved - both the sponsor to explain what to expect, and the person joining to ask pretty basic questions like "what's my first year expenses likely to be?"

    If you're being deceitful that's another issue of course.

    Totally not worth $500 imo. Like I once stated, remove the $500, or at least lower it to at least $50 and everything about ACN would be ok.
    I agree here, can't see the justification for $500 startup.

    The issue with that is since their prices are not competitive at all, there is no way many people will sign up with them.
    Ultimately that's what it comes down to - is there a legitimate market for the product?

    New to scam.com? This is what you can expect from MLM critics in support of their claims ....


    Why the f-u-c-k do you need evidence all the time? - Zapticon
    You know that I don't provide proof of my claims - Once Upon A Time
    I have the information but I'm not posting it - Joecool


  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    56

    Re: ACN - what's the deal?

    Why couldn't the $500 cover the Business Assistant? (not asking you, but just thinking out loud). At least to me that would make the sign up a lot more valuable if I have to spend $500. I'd actually get something. My take on it is simply that it's to maximize their income, enforcing the pyramid scheme idea. Money goes up the ladder.

    As for the events, I'm sure training is going on. But you cannot possible tell me it's not at least 50% of hyping you. I have no problem with being enthusiastic about a project or business, but the way they do it is clearly misleading and building hope.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yk3d-WC1OQs

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    56

    Re: ACN - what's the deal?

    Here is an interesting post I found that sounds similar to my own experience. I've cut to the part I find most important other than the pyramid scheme : the cult aspect.

    I've lived this with countless people that I considered friends which now do not even acknowledge me.

    [...]
    meanwhile,my girlfriend has become somewhat zealot about acn,severing any/all relationships with friends and family that lack the "faith" and "vision" needed to succeed in the biz (that requires $500 to start) and for those who do commit ,they must first become customers and acquire a certain number of points that come from maintaining a biz website,videophone or cell phone, all sold to you by acn.

    now since my girlfriend does have the virtues neccessary for acn success,she is touted and supported by her upline, inevitably growing her downline.as for me,im just surviving as a customer ,unable to grow my downline, perhaps bcause i lack the virtues needed to succeed .

    needless to say,my girlfriend and i have now broken up.

    thank u jesus.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    3,928

    Re: ACN - what's the deal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deagle View Post
    Why couldn't the $500 cover the Business Assistant? (not asking you, but just thinking out loud).
    Basic websites etc to run your business should be included in signup - which should be a lot less. With automation it's a very low cost setup for the company.

    Optional training/motivaiton etc can be a monthly subscription.

    As for the events, I'm sure training is going on. But you cannot possible tell me it's not at least 50% of hyping you.
    It's not an either/or - you can learn while being "hyped", and getting hyped is important. Even when I've not been building Amway I've often attended seminars purely for the atmosphere and to get focused and motivated on what I'm trying to achieve. It really does help get over the frustrations and hurdles of building a business.

    Well, helps me anyway. Your mileage may vary.

    I have no problem with being enthusiastic about a project or business, but the way they do it is clearly misleading and building hope.
    As I said, never attended one so can't say if it's "misleading" or not. People do

    I don't have a problem with that at all. When I was building an Amway business back in Australia I had a whole group of McDonalds managers come in to my organisation. They didn't feel it was much difference from their sales seminars.

    Here's a favourite clip of mine from an old Microsoft Developer Seminar -



    And that's full of programmers, not sales people!

    New to scam.com? This is what you can expect from MLM critics in support of their claims ....


    Why the f-u-c-k do you need evidence all the time? - Zapticon
    You know that I don't provide proof of my claims - Once Upon A Time
    I have the information but I'm not posting it - Joecool


  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    56

    Re: ACN - what's the deal?

    First of, Steve Ballmer is one crazy motherf*cker, so I already expect that from him. That being said, I get the same vibe from that video too. That in itself isn't bad like I said, and it doesn't have anything to do with the pyramid scheme aspect of things. The thing with being so pumped up and having a bunch of people listening to you is that they will believe everything you say, which is the main goal of ACN when training new reps. That's where the promises and brainwashing starts. When you're surrounded by 1000s of people believing in the same thing and jerking each other off, you're bound to believe in this opportunity.

    Combine the hype, the false promises, the lies and the success stories and you have a recipe to failure.

    Now the difference between Mcdonalds, Ballmer and ACN is that Mcdonalds and Ballmer are not pressuring you into recruiting people for something. Mcdonalds managers are not trying to force their employees to buy their own burgers and recruit friends into joining.

    WHO'S GOT THE BEST BURGERS?? WE HAVE THE BEST BURGERS!! LET'S SELL ALL THE BURGERS!! *music blasting* - totally fine by me

    WHO'S EXCITED FOR THE LATEST NEW WINDOWS 2024 PC, ARE YOU EXCITED? I'M EXCITED!! WE'RE ALL EXCITED WOO!! - totally fine by me

    THE FUTURE IS YOURS, DO YOU WANT TO BECOME RICH? BUILD YOUR BUSINESS BY RECRUITING NEW MEMBERS AND BUILDING YOUR TEAM, SELL COMM PLANS, MAKE MONEY AND STOP LISTENING TO THE HATERS!! - i have a problem with this
    Last edited by Deagle; 03-04-2015 at 12:05 PM.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    3,928

    Re: ACN - what's the deal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deagle View Post
    The thing with being so pumped up and having a bunch of people listening to you is that they will believe everything you say, which is the main goal of ACN when training new reps. That's where the promises and brainwashing starts.
    It should come as no surprise that, amongst others, the CIA has done a lot of research in to "brainwashing". It doesn't exist. You can get people to do things they wouldn't normally do for a short period of time, but for longer periods people need to be completely immersed in the culture (or being physically threatened, in which case they're just surviving!).

    MLMs get accused of being "cults" and "brainwashing" people but it's simply not even remotely possible when the people involved spend 99% of their time outside the MLM environment. They have jobs, families, life, whatever.

    Now, that doesn't won't make unwise decisions in the immediate hyped environment of a conference, just like people do at any type of "sale" situation. That's one reason why there's consumer protection laws allowing people to return many types of products within a "cooling off" period.

    MLMs have some of the most generous "cooling off" periods around. Amway for example offers 12 month refunds on membership fees. ACN's 10 days .... well, let's just say I'm not happy with that!

    Combine the hype, the false promises, the lies and the success stories and you have a recipe to failure.
    Could you provide some examples of "false promises" and "lies"?

    Now the difference between Mcdonalds, Ballmer and ACN is that Mcdonalds and Ballmer are not pressuring you into recruiting people for something. Mcdonalds managers are not trying to force their employees to buy their own burgers and recruit friends into joining.
    Yes they are. Call it recruiting or call it customer acquisition. Same thing. They're trying to get you to buy their stuff and write software which gets other people to buy their stuff. In the case of developers they MS absolutely wants you to promote their stuff to other developers so that they'll get people to buy their stuff too.

    heck, many companies even offer direct cash incentives for referring other "employees"

    THE FUTURE IS YOURS, DO YOU WANT TO BECOME RICH? BUILD YOUR BUSINESS BY RECRUITING NEW MEMBERS AND BUILDING YOUR TEAM, SELL COMM PLANS, MAKE MONEY AND STOP LISTENING TO THE HATERS!! - i have a problem with this
    Ok - why?

    New to scam.com? This is what you can expect from MLM critics in support of their claims ....


    Why the f-u-c-k do you need evidence all the time? - Zapticon
    You know that I don't provide proof of my claims - Once Upon A Time
    I have the information but I'm not posting it - Joecool


  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    21,438

    Re: ACN - what's the deal?

    Quote Originally Posted by IBOFightBack View Post
    It should come as no surprise that, amongst others, the CIA has done a lot of research in to "brainwashing". It doesn't exist.
    What research?

    It may not be "brainwashing" but the more clever trick of peer pressure. People who quit are labeled as "failures" or "gutless losers" or having no hope". Conversely, people who are in the MLM and building are edified and referred to as "winners". Constantly hearing these terms makes it harder for many people to walk away and quit, knowing the label will follow them.

    Quote Originally Posted by IBOFightBack View Post
    MLMs get accused of being "cults" and "brainwashing" people but it's simply not even remotely possible when the people involved spend 99% of their time outside the MLM environment. They have jobs, families, life, whatever.
    I believe a more accurate term is "cult like" where the leader is showered with undue adulation and some people will do anything for the leader.
    Originally Posted by nomaxim
    Sorry there ''ohein56', but it appears that 'Joecool44' does not have the position that you envision on this topic.

    'Joecool44' has, as a matter of routine, refuted most of your accusations
    Quote Originally Posted by Jax74 View Post
    Some people have the ability to think critically, some do not. ohein obviously doesn't.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    56

    Re: ACN - what's the deal?

    Of course we can play with words and based on the definition of "brainwash" you can say that it's impossible for whatever scientific reason, but in the end it's the same as the "pyramid scheme" we're talking about here.

    By definition ACN is not considered a pyramid scheme; there's services offered, it has been around for long, etc. But it doesn't change the fact that it fits the definition of one, but with some tweaks made to it in order to not be called one.

    So maybe "brainwashing" people is impossible, but then that's not the word I was looking for. When I say brainwash I'm simply referring to the fact people become delusional and put their trust into people that are there to profit from you.

    Listen, like I've said earlier, I have experienced this with friends and I cannot tell you how much that, to me, it is brainwashing. Friends that I would help out anytime of the day and they would do the same for me, but now oh I don't agree with them being in ACN? (and I never tried to discourage them either, I just never "supported" them (facebook likes, etc etc)) Then I'm not worthy of being their friend anymore because that's what they're told in those meetings. PEOPLE THAT DO NOT BELIEVE IN ACN ARE NEGATIVE PEOPLE, CUT THEM FROM YOUR LIFE. Can you imagine? Dropping a long-time friend because he has an opinion different than yours? That's what I call being brainwashed.

    What kind of business is that. I have friends selling insurances and another that started his own business, none of them EVER hinted I was being negative by not encouraging them. Yet in ACN it happened 3 times to me, and countless threads online made with the same situation happening but with a gf / family member.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
    I believe a more accurate term is "cult like" where the leader is showered with undue adulation and some people will do anything for the leader.
    Idolizing (worshiping at this point..) someone is truly the worst thing that can happen here. If you do not idolize the people above you that claim to be rich, you will see through their bullshit claims and after a month or two you'll realize it's better to get out before being scammed even more. But when you put 100% of your trust into a person, you become their puppet and that's when it becomes dangerous.

    Like I always say, the wrost type of MLMer is the one that is into the scam without knowing it's a scam, and scams people without knowing he's scamming people. This double ignorances makes it that it's so much easier to recruit and convince people without ever feeling bad about lurint them into ACN. And once you realize it's bound to fail (or make almost nothing) well it's time to apologize or even worse yet, put the blame on someone else because you're so much in denial that you just got ed bare-back, without any lube.
    Last edited by Deagle; 03-04-2015 at 02:35 PM.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    3,928

    Re: ACN - what's the deal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
    What research?
    Here's a general article on the topic

    It may not be "brainwashing" but the more clever trick of peer pressure.
    "social influence" exists constantly in our lives, of course it's an influence here as well.

    People who quit are labeled as "failures" or "gutless losers" or having no hope". Conversely, people who are in the MLM and building are edified and referred to as "winners". Constantly hearing these terms makes it harder for many people to walk away and quit, knowing the label will follow them.
    Here you're contradicting yourself. You've numerous times claimed its impossible to build a residual income with MLM because of high turnover (ie lots of people walking away) yet now you're claiming it's "hard" to walk away, ie people can't quit.

    Which is it?

    I believe a more accurate term is "cult like" where the leader is showered with undue adulation and some people will do anything for the leader.
    I think some MLM groups have tended that way - like many other groups, see for example "the cult of Apple" and it's near deification of Jobs.

    New to scam.com? This is what you can expect from MLM critics in support of their claims ....


    Why the f-u-c-k do you need evidence all the time? - Zapticon
    You know that I don't provide proof of my claims - Once Upon A Time
    I have the information but I'm not posting it - Joecool


  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    21,438

    Re: ACN - what's the deal?

    Quote Originally Posted by IBOFightBack View Post
    That doesn't match what you claimed:

    Originally Posted by IBOFightBack
    It should come as no surprise that, amongst others, the CIA has done a lot of research in to "brainwashing". It doesn't exist.
    Originally Posted by nomaxim
    Sorry there ''ohein56', but it appears that 'Joecool44' does not have the position that you envision on this topic.

    'Joecool44' has, as a matter of routine, refuted most of your accusations
    Quote Originally Posted by Jax74 View Post
    Some people have the ability to think critically, some do not. ohein obviously doesn't.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    3,928

    Re: ACN - what's the deal?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deagle View Post
    Of course we can play with words and based on the definition of "brainwash" you can say that it's impossible for whatever scientific reason, but in the end it's the same as the "pyramid scheme" we're talking about here.
    Well perhaps - in that both are fairly well understood by experts in the relevant fields, and the "lay person" essentially rejects the expert conclusions.

    By definition ACN is not considered a pyramid scheme; there's services offered, it has been around for long, etc. But it doesn't change the fact that it fits the definition of one, but with some tweaks made to it in order to not be called one.
    Not sure I agree. If the signup fee is as big a profit center as you believe, then it would fit the definition of a pyramid.

    What kind of business is that. I have friends selling insurances and another that started his own business, none of them EVER hinted I was being negative by not encouraging them. Yet in ACN it happened 3 times to me, and countless threads online made with the same situation happening but with a gf / family member.
    And I could tell you I've seen the same accusations made about Amway, and most definitely been "not encouraged" by numerous friends. I've also had the same with other (non-MLM businesses) - any idea how annoying it is to be pestered to help someone fix a problem they have with a service they bought from a competitor of mine? When they bought the service knowing I owned a company offering the same service?

    It hurts, and it's annoying as heck, but one thing I learned from building MLM is that the vast majority of people never bother to think very much

    But here's my point - People make that accusation about Amway and I've experienced that "rejection" as an Amway distributor but I've never "dropped" or lost any friends because of it.

    I'm guessing the same thing with ACN. Some people react like that, some don't. A combination of the experiences and personalities of both the rejectee and the rejector.

    New to scam.com? This is what you can expect from MLM critics in support of their claims ....


    Why the f-u-c-k do you need evidence all the time? - Zapticon
    You know that I don't provide proof of my claims - Once Upon A Time
    I have the information but I'm not posting it - Joecool


Similar Threads

  1. The real deal on 'The Deal'
    By willyjoe in forum Political Scams
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-16-2011, 09:29 AM
  2. Anyone know about this deal? SBI
    By sailorman in forum Mail Order Scams
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-23-2010, 04:02 AM
  3. What's the Deal?
    By coontie in forum General Chat
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 03-13-2008, 04:03 AM
  4. What is the deal?
    By Jax74 in forum Political Scams
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 02-19-2008, 08:54 PM
  5. Real Estate Fortunes?? Deal or No Deal
    By Sinnamon_Mami in forum Work at Home Scams
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-25-2006, 06:08 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may post new threads
  • You may post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may edit your posts
  •