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  1. #1
    tommywho70x Guest

    Special Forces Suicides Raise Questions

    The Honorable Admiral, Rabbi, Doctor, Mayor of the digital City of Gonzopolis, Travis, Texas, Crazy Tommy 2-tone AKA tommywho70x selects not to comment on this Yahoo! NEWS AP Article at this time. Instead, tommywho70x will only highlight what he considers to be important points in BOLD face type style.
    (Titles by Author: IDI AMINO ACIDOSIS, UGANDA RUANDA BURUNDI, MALAWI?)

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    Special Forces Suicides Raise Questions By JON SARCHE, Associated Press Writer
    Tue Oct 11, 1:49 PM ET



    DENVER - Chief Warrant Officer William Howell was a 15-year Army Special Forces veteran who had seen combat duty all over the world. Sgt. 1st Class Andre McDaniel was a military accountant. Spc. Jeremy Wilson repaired electronics.


    They had little in common, other than having served in Iraq with the 10th Special Forces Group based at Fort Carson, Colo. They did not know each other, and they had vastly different duties.

    Each, however, committed suicide shortly after returning home, all within about a 17-month period.

    The Army says there appears to be no connection between the men's overseas service and their deaths, and Army investigators found no "common contributing cause" among the three. The fact they were in the same unit is only a coincidence, Special Operations Command spokeswoman Diane Grant said at Fort Bragg, N.C.

    Others are not so sure. Steve Robinson, a former Army Ranger and veterans' advocate, said he suspects there were problems in the men's unit namely, a macho refusal to acknowledge stress and seek help.

    "It could be that there's a climate there that creates the stigma which prevents people from coming forward," said Robinson, executive director of the National Gulf War Resource Center. "The mentality of this particular group seemed to be `Ignore what you think and feel and keep doing your job and don't talk to me about that (expletive) combat stress reaction stuff.'"


    Special Forces soldiers specialize in what the Army calls "unconventional warfare" commando raids, search-and-destroy missions, intelligence gathering. They go through specialized psychological screening. They also undergo rigorous physical training and learn survival techniques and other skills, including foreign languages.

    Howell, 36, a father of three, shot himself March 14, 2004 three weeks after returning from Iraq after hitting and threatening to kill his wife, Laura.

    She said she did not see any warning signs until the night he threatened her.

    "You look back every day and think what could I have done different. I can't think of anything," she said.

    She said she did not know of any connection between her husband and the two other soldiers, and did not know them or their families. But she agreed with Robinson that Special Forces soldiers might have a more difficult time than other military personnel overcoming the stigma associated with seeking counseling.

    "My husband would probably see getting help as a weakness," she said. "Even as mature and old and experienced as he was, he may look at it as `I can handle it, it's not that bad.'"

    Special Forces officials said the Colorado-based unit experienced heavy combat in Iraq. Two members were killed in the first half of 2004 one by a roadside bomb, another in a vehicle rollover. Another member, former Staff Sgt. Georg-Andreas Pogany, was sent home and charged with cowardice when the sight of the mangled body of an Iraqi caused a panic attack and prompted him to ask for psychological help. Charges against Pogany were later dropped, and he received a medical discharge.

    Staff Sgt. Kyle Cosner, spokesman for the 10th Special Forces Group, declined to comment. Grant said unit morale appears high because the unit's soldiers re-enlist at a rate that is among the highest in the command.

    She also said chaplains trained in counseling and suicide intervention are available to members of the 10th Special Forces Group and their families, and every Army unit's commanders are required to provide regular suicide prevention training.

    The Army says its overall suicide rate in 2003 was 12.8 per 100,000 active-duty soldiers, while the rate in the general U.S. population was 10.5 per 100,000, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

    Military officials contend the 2003 figure for the Army was skewed by a spike in suicides among soldiers in Iraq and Kuwait; the 2004 rate was 11 per 100,000, Army spokeswoman Maj. Elizabeth Robbins said. An Army surgeon general's report said the suicide rate among soldiers sent to Iraq and Kuwait in 2004 was 8.5 per 100,000.

    The Army has learned much about mental health in recent years and is working to improve treatment and ease soldiers' reluctance to seeking help, Robbins said.

    Robinson has been pushing military leaders to stop using paper questionnaires to screen for problems among returning soldiers and switch to face-to-face meetings with mental health professionals.

    "There have been improvements, but it's been like pulling teeth from a lion's mouth to get the Department of Defense to do things they're not willing to do because of the dollars," he said.

    Laura Howell said she blamed Lariam, an Army-issued anti-malaria drug, for her husband's suicide. The drug's manufacturer, Roche Pharmaceuticals, says side effects can include anxiety, paranoia, depression, hallucinations and psychotic behavior. Pogany, the soldier unhinged by the sight of a mangled corpse, also believes the drug played a role in his case.


    Roche and the military maintain the drug is safe, and it is among the drugs recommended by the CDC for preventing and treating malaria.

    Wilson, 23, hanged himself in the post barracks July 9, about a month after returning from Iraq. The Associated Press was unable to find members of his family.

    McDaniel, 40, a father of two, shot himself in August 2004, six weeks after he returned from Iraq. He had recently been arrested for allegedly arranging to have sex with an undercover officer who had posed on the Internet as a 13-year-old girl.

    His widow, Linda, said her husband seemed withdrawn when he returned from Iraq. He had called home around Easter 2004 and said his unit was being shelled.

    "He said goodbye at that particular time because he was scared he wouldn't be coming home," she said.

    ___

    On the Net:

    Army: http://www.army.mil

    National Gulf War Resource Center: http://www.ngwrc.org


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  2. #2
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    Re: Special Forces Suicides Raise Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by tommywho70x
    1) Others are not so sure. Steve Robinson, a former Army Ranger and veterans' advocate, said he suspects there were problems in the men's unit namely, a macho refusal to acknowledge stress and seek help.

    2) Special Forces soldiers specialize in what the Army calls "unconventional warfare" commando raids, search-and-destroy missions, intelligence gathering. They go through specialized psychological screening. They also undergo rigorous physical training and learn survival techniques and other skills, including foreign languages.

    3) Howell, 36, a father of three, shot himself March 14, 2004 three weeks after returning from Iraq after hitting and threatening to kill his wife, Laura.


    4) Laura Howell said she blamed Lariam, an Army-issued anti-malaria drug, for her husband's suicide. The drug's manufacturer, Roche Pharmaceuticals, says side effects can include anxiety, paranoia, depression, hallucinations and psychotic behavior. Pogany, the soldier unhinged by the sight of a mangled corpse, also believes the drug played a role in his case.

    5) An Army surgeon general's report said the suicide rate among soldiers sent to Iraq and Kuwait in 2004 was 8.5 per 100,000.
    This is a somewhat sensitive issue for me to discuss but i'll do so for the purposes of educated discussion...this largely because (for those who haven't read my other posts) i am a recently retired SF Army soldier... and i've know several of the service men who commited suicide...especially since its more a social issue and less a political issue i hope no one will abuse this thread to promote political views excessively but rather uses this opportunity to respectfully discuss the well being of our troops.

    Please note that nothing i say here has anything to do with politics...i doubt it would make a difference whter dems or reps are in charge in this case!

    1/3) Many troops, especially SF personnel, come home with severe psychological issues that are never dealt with. The nature of our work is often extremely difficult for people to deal with and unfortunately it isn't the type of stuff that you discuss over the dinner table to get it of your chest. Readjusting to normal life is extremely difficult...i have been very paranoid since i got back and don't enjoy crowded places like bars the way i used to...And it is true that expressing any concern about your mental health will definitely considered a weakness and isn't something you want to bring up to your team because it will hurt morale. Furthermore, personally, I received inadequate support in the form of counseling from the military and was forced to seek professional assistance elsewhere. Howell's story of become violent towards his spouse isn't uncommon. I personally woke up one night trying to strangle my girlfriend using specific techniques that are second nature to me. Now it is not in my nature to be violent without reason and because the incident scared me more than my girlfriend (a 5yr jui-jitsu veteran, so she knew how to handle the submission attempt), I have since then slept on the floor. This is a very serious issue that many soldiers are prepared to deal with once they come back home!

    2)a) Psychological screening for SF operatives has decreased a lot since 9/11 due to the need of special operatives. And the fact is that some of the guys who are running certain missions aren't cut out for this type of work mentally, unfortunately the real effects aren't felt until they come home.
    b) Support provided by the military is minimal considering the amount of stress that their personnel, especial SF, endure while overseas. Even the support i did receive tended to come from military chaplains which didn't do me much good considering i'm muslim..but thats besides the point...the issue is that people who are to provide support are not trained or prepared to assist returning combatants.
    c) The extremely long times that SF soldiers are forced to remain in combat zones is beyond responsible norms. I personally spent far too much in combat without a break and that is very difficult for anyone to handle. And the continual extensions on your tour are so difficult to deal with...you know, you havent seen your family/friend in a year and are about to go home in 2days, then you are told that you're being remobilized to Iraq!! Very difficult to deal with...and I can tell you when that happened in Afghanistan and we were told that we were being reassigned, I don't think I've ever seen so many tough guys with watery eyes......my new employer a contractor from england refuses to allow personnel in combat zones for longer than 6 weeks at a time because they want to preserve their personnel's mental well being!!

    4) Lariam is an evil drug...the first time i took it for more than 2 weeks..i suffered from nightmares and significant depression...i switched to palludrine which is a more mellow malaria drug which you take daily instead of the weekly Lariam...palludrine however had some serious effects on my eyesight ... i ended up just drinking a lot of tonic water which contains quinine(not sure if thats spelt right)...but i never got malaria!

    5) not sure if these numbers are only suicides for soldier who are sent to iraq/kuwait while they are there or also include those who have returned back home?!

  3. #3
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    Re: Special Forces Suicides Raise Questions

    I'm not surprised to hear about 23 year old Wilson... I'm actually surprised there aren't far more suicides in the age group of 18-25. I knew a guy who served in Nam - a friend of mine dated him. He was 21 years old when he came home. OMG... he was soooooo screwed up. He created a "jungle" in the woods behind his house, complete with trenches and all. It was nothing for him to go out there, dressed in camouflauge and fully armed (his weapons were hid in the "jungle") and stay there for days at a time... He shot at his Dad one time when the Father tried to get him to come inside. His ex-commanding officer had become a good friend of the family and was asked to come over and get him - he had been out there for 11 days. Things like this happened for years; he was hospitilized numerous times and was on several different meds. He never got any better.. he killed himself when he was 34.

    I think the fact that "seasoned" military personnel are commiting suicide speaks volumes about what they are facing in Iraq. How horrible must it be for these gentlemen to NOT be able to handle it?

  4. #4
    tommywho70x Guest

    Re: Special Forces Suicides Raise Questions

    mroels, as a new friend, I apologize for posting this article knowing that you were one of those Army guys who wore Girl Scout caps and did the really nasty 'hot,wet' jobs.

    as someone who should be at least a USN O-5 right now but isn't because of the political situation since 1963 and KKPsi Fraternity brother of retired U.S. Army SF Major LeRoy Mitchell, Jr., no apologies, bro; this is war and this is casualties on the medical side that I have been participating in with no pay for 41 11/12 years.

    The DoDoS owe me all that back pay and at least one PH for the .22 cal lead
    souvenier the bad guys left in my back in the "Venice Beach Street Theater".

    If you never served with or were trained by Mitch, you should look up his records. I'd love to see what you find because I only heard it straight from him. Dude got his first of several PHs in D'Nam sometime between 60 and 63, I forget what year he said.

    Worked his way up through the ranks from a non-comm enlistee in the early 50's, Mitch did something like 4 or 5 tours before retiring in the mid-70's. Mitch is a brilliant man, marvelous raconteur and not too shabby with the song and dance. Mitch graduated UTampa with an MA - Arts Management and is enjoying a second career in Tampa now.

    INSIDER NOTE: LeRoy is pronounced Luh-roy AND NOT Lee-roy
    KAPPA KAPPA PSI - Alpha-Sigma Chapter - UTAMPA.EDU - Subito! (Lat: Silence!)
    National Honorary Fraternity Of College Bandspeople
    SPARTAN Band/Jazz Lab Ensemble/Chorus circa 1975-78
    MOTTO: WE CARE!


    I wholeheartedly agree with you that it would be completely inappropriate for anybody to jump in to this discussion with their political agendas and legal theories. If you like, and want to expand on this topic, we can always ask Lady Mod to move this to the Chat area.

    It's your call; I'm just guiding this discussion and you're the one with first hand eyewitness personal experiences.

  5. #5
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    Re: Special Forces Suicides Raise Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by tommywho70x
    1) you were one of those Army guys who wore Girl Scout caps and did the really nasty 'hot,wet' jobs.

    2) retired U.S. Army SF Major LeRoy Mitchell, Jr., no apologies, bro; this is war and this is casualties on the medical side that I have been participating in with no pay for 41 11/12 years.

    3) The DoDoS owe me all that back pay and at least one PH for the .22 cal lead souvenier the bad guys left in my back in the "Venice Beach Street Theater".

    4) If you never served with or were trained by Mitch, you should look up his records. I'd love to see what you find because I only heard it straight from him. Dude got his first of several PHs in D'Nam sometime between 60 and 63, I forget what year he said. Worked his way up through the ranks from a non-comm enlistee in the early 50's, Mitch did something like 4 or 5 tours before retiring in the mid-70's. Mitch is a brilliant man, marvelous raconteur and not too shabby with the song and dance. Mitch graduated UTampa with an MA - Arts Management and is enjoying a second career in Tampa now.

    5) I wholeheartedly agree with you that it would be completely inappropriate for anybody to jump in to this discussion with their political agendas and legal theories. If you like, and want to expand on this topic, we can always ask Lady Mod to move this to the Chat area. It's your call; I'm just guiding this discussion and you're the one with first hand eyewitness personal experiences.
    1) funny you say "girl scout caps"...we used to call our head gear boy scout caps largely due to the bad quality of helmets made (lowest bidder contracts and all)...those thing are not suitable for most of the missions we run...not to mention the fact that a sniper/ or AK-47 round to the head might not penetrate through the helmets but they don't absord the impact good enough either...know plenty of guys who took one on skull wearing helmets and ending up in a coma because of the sheer force that should be absorbed by proper head armor...buying this equipment by ourselves considering average SF pay isn't an option even with OPfunds....once again i remind people to check out AmericanSnipers.org..... see http://www.americansnipers.org/themovie.htm

    2) i think maj. mitchell was a little before my time...never served with him.. never heard of him either...but then again i'm not the typical army guy, joined for economic reasons to get out of my neighbourhood..turned out i was good at it so i advanced rapidly...plus my interest in the middle east/asia and my muslim background made me a good candidate for SF.. while i was dedicated i didn't care much for the "brotherhood" (except for my immediate teammates) or history..but i'll see if i can find out more about him

    3) i hear ya about back pay..so many guys got pay suspended when they got hurt because they were "no longer working"...none of my injuries ever really warranted anything more than superficial care, stitches etc..which doesn't matter much coz i'm ugly anyways..lol

    4) Knew a guy just like that...was our psy ops instructor...he's now a psyc. prof. at hawaii pacific university...he was SF during Nam...took 6 bullets in one setting, 2 to the face...was the only one of his crew who walked away from the incident...still went back for 2 more tours after he recovered

    5) I have no problem with this thread being in the Politics section... it is kinda related to many of the threads in this section... all i wanted to ask of participants to not get too crazy with which party would solve this problem.. because frankly this isn't a new problem and has been prevalent throughout various administrations...and we have to keep in mind that sometimes it takes a bipartisan effort to be successful at taking care of certain problems in our country.

  6. #6
    tommywho70x Guest

    Re: Special Forces Suicides Raise Questions

    i don't think they're going to get too nuts. they aren't going to do anything to offend you and i can get a whole lot more obnoxious than the worst of 'em. i've laid it on the line here that i'm from a pioneer military-industrialist family and know all the chat room and message board tricks -- hell, we've been installing the stinking hardware for almost 100 years and i've been operating big computers since before the really big, fast ones got so small.

    i'm surprised you never heard the girl scout cap thing before. all the SF guys i've ever met b4 used to snivel about how much that pissed them off. i suppose the fit's not a problem anymore now that they're using the Wehrmacht bonnet design or does SF still use the old one?

    oh man, don't i know it's an old problem! i like to think i may have helped prevent a few when the VA was doing such a crappy job.

    neither party is going to be able to solve this problem until they realize that we all stand on common ground that doesn't belong to any of us that we're fighting over to create the PTSD that leads to all of this suicide, drug dependancy, domestic violence and broken families 'military life' and DEATH cause.

    I think Golda Meir said it best when she said: "We can forgive you for killing our children, but we can never forgive you for turning our children into killers."

  7. #7
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    Re: Special Forces Suicides Raise Questions

    Quote Originally Posted by tommywho70x
    i'm surprised you never heard the girl scout cap thing before. all the SF guys i've ever met b4 used to snivel about how much that pissed them off. i suppose the fit's not a problem anymore now that they're using the Wehrmacht bonnet design or does SF still use the old one?

    Don't know why i never heard the girl scout cap thing...probably to young.. might explain where the boy scout cap thing came from though...and yes the new helmet are Wehrmacht design...but i personally hate them coz they are super heavy, don't fit nice if you're using a scope, and there isn't nearly enough padding on the inside..so every knock bounces right through... i personally always used a skateboarding type helmet that i bought from a local gunshop in SD..was much better...kevlar to absord, metal to stop, more kevlar padding to absord

  8. #8
    DeeDee1965 is offline Gold Scams Member User Rank
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    Re: Special Forces Suicides Raise Questions

    Hi Mroels,

    First I want to thank you for the service you have given this country. Women and men like you, volunteer to keep the country safe, and I humbly say, job well done. :)

    All Americans are responsible for the mental, physical, spiritual health of our soldiers.
    My direct practical question is; How can citizens make sure you and all your fellow women and men in arms, get the treatment you need? If you have your druthers, what would be the best way to treat you and other soldiers after being discharged?

    I will speak for myself, mental illness and it's accompanying manifestations are such a taboo subject, that many people do not get the help they need. Citizens need to find a way to help discharged soldiers, helping them to reintegrate back into to everyday civilian life. Dealing with possible suicides, flashbacks, PTSD, and the like, is an extremely important issue. Helping the soldiers get healthy, helps America. To be a stronger, better, and safer place to live.
    Last edited by DeeDee1965; 10-12-2005 at 06:53 AM. Reason: spelling

  9. #9
    Kool-Aid Guest

    Re: Special Forces Suicides Raise Questions

    The suicide issue is not new to this conflict.

    I was in the sand box on our first trip over in 1990. We had the same kind of percentages for suicide both in-theatre and after returning to CONUS.

    I believe the numbers have been at this level as far back as our guys have been in combat.

    Unfortunate, but part of the territory. Does'nt mean I like it. It is just a historical fact that probably will not change.

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