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Thread: Real debate?

  1. #1
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    Real debate?

    Now that a few reasonable people have shown up I would like to have some real debate.

    Please discuss this.

    If there was a man say 2000 years ago, that was raising the dead, walking on water, healing the sick, making the blind see, rising from the dead himself, and a host of other miracles, why would it take between 100 and 300 years to start documenting this? It is well known that there were plenty of scribes around at the time. Seems to me it would be pretty big news. The Romans were really good at documenting what was going on. From what I know there is slim to no chance that a report would not be filed with Rome if said man was doing all this.

    Thoughts?

  2. #2

    Re: Real debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by tomInAustin View Post
    Now that a few reasonable people have shown up I would like to have some real debate.

    Please discuss this.

    If there was a man say 2000 years ago, that was raising the dead, walking on water, healing the sick, making the blind see, rising from the dead himself, and a host of other miracles, why would it take between 100 and 300 years to start documenting this? It is well known that there were plenty of scribes around at the time. Seems to me it would be pretty big news. The Romans were really good at documenting what was going on. From what I know there is slim to no chance that a report would not be filed with Rome if said man was doing all this.

    Thoughts?
    One of the things you either accept or reject are the books scribed or dictated by his original disciples. The books of Peter, John 1,2 & 3, James, Revelations were from people who supposedly knew Jesus so its origin would be much sooner than 100 - 300 years. Paul was also a contemporary and knew Peter and James. What is interesting is that the "stories" of Jesus seem to have been documented later. As far as his miracles being documented and circulated within the empire, there were allot of claims of miracles during that time. Here is an interesting link:

    http://infidels.org/library/modern/r...ier/kooks.html

  3. #3
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    Re: Real debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by tomInAustin View Post
    Now that a few reasonable people have shown up I would like to have some real debate.

    Please discuss this.

    If there was a man say 2000 years ago, that was raising the dead, walking on water, healing the sick, making the blind see, rising from the dead himself, and a host of other miracles, why would it take between 100 and 300 years to start documenting this? It is well known that there were plenty of scribes around at the time. Seems to me it would be pretty big news. The Romans were really good at documenting what was going on. From what I know there is slim to no chance that a report would not be filed with Rome if said man was doing all this.

    Thoughts?
    So posting attacks and insulting memes is not real debate?

    Even if there were many scribes, they were not apparently following Jesus around. And of those who did note the stories, many accounts matched up despite the passage of time. It's not like these folks had IPads at their disposal. Writing these accounts likely were painstaking activities and we also did not have libraries to store these accounts. It is also likely that many written accounts were destroyed over time and never discovered.
    Originally Posted by nomaxim
    Sorry there ''ohein56', but it appears that 'Joecool44' does not have the position that you envision on this topic.

    'Joecool44' has, as a matter of routine, refuted most of your accusations
    Quote Originally Posted by Jax74 View Post
    Some people have the ability to think critically, some do not. ohein obviously doesn't.

  4. #4
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    Re: Real debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
    So posting attacks and insulting memes is not real debate?
    I was not referring to you. You and conserve have proven to not want real debate. Any time it gets serious you two hide.


    Even if there were many scribes, they were not apparently following Jesus around.
    How convenient.


    And of those who did note the stories, many accounts matched up despite the passage of time.
    Show me one.


    Writing these accounts likely were painstaking activities
    Then why was it done 200 years or more later? Technology had not improved.

    and we also did not have libraries to store these accounts.
    Why did the later writings survive?



    It is also likely that many written accounts were destroyed over time and never discovered.
    How convenient.


    Do you have a justification for every time a logic test fails?

  5. #5
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    Re: Real debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by tomInAustin View Post
    I was not referring to you. You and conserve have proven to not want real debate. Any time it gets serious you two hide.
    What is there to debate? There is no bonafide scientific evidence/proof of God's existence or non existence.

    You reject the Bible as being a fairy tale.

    What is left to debate?
    Originally Posted by nomaxim
    Sorry there ''ohein56', but it appears that 'Joecool44' does not have the position that you envision on this topic.

    'Joecool44' has, as a matter of routine, refuted most of your accusations
    Quote Originally Posted by Jax74 View Post
    Some people have the ability to think critically, some do not. ohein obviously doesn't.

  6. #6
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    Re: Real debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by noagenda View Post
    One of the things you either accept or reject are the books scribed or dictated by his original disciples. The books of Peter, John 1,2 & 3, James, Revelations were from people who supposedly knew Jesus so its origin would be much sooner than 100 - 300 years. Paul was also a contemporary and knew Peter and James. What is interesting is that the "stories" of Jesus seem to have been documented later. As far as his miracles being documented and circulated within the empire, there were allot of claims of miracles during that time. Here is an interesting link:

    http://infidels.org/library/modern/r...ier/kooks.html
    Key word..."supposedly"...based on what, exactly....??

    As far as I can tell the research shows that not one person wrote down ANYTHING that actually knew jesus...not one.

    The writings that do exist date to at least 30-40 years or more AFTER his "supposed" death/life. Why aren't there any mention of him and his "supposed" miracles in his lifetime by the any number of historians around during that time?!!




    Here's the conclusion from your link noagenda...

    From all of this one thing should be apparent: the age of Jesus was not an age of critical reflection and remarkable religious acumen. It was an era filled with con artists, gullible believers, martyrs without a cause, and reputed miracles of every variety. In light of this picture, the tales of the Gospels do not seem very remarkable. Even if they were false in every detail, there is no evidence that they would have been disbelieved or rejected as absurd by many people, who at the time had little in the way of education or critical thinking skills. They had no newspapers, telephones, photographs, or public documents to consult to check a story. If they were not a witness, all they had was a man's word. And even if they were a witness, the tales above tell us that even then their skills of critical reflection were lacking. Certainly, this age did not lack keen and educated skeptics--it is not that there were no skilled and skeptical observers. There were. Rather, the shouts of the credulous rabble overpowered their voice and seized the world from them, boldly leading them all into the darkness of a thousand years of chaos. Perhaps we should not repeat the same mistake. After all, the wise learn from history. The fool ignores it.
    Thank goodness we've finally learned to overcome supernatural bullshit...or have we?

    Last edited by ohein56; 10-13-2014 at 01:59 PM.
    As long as it is acceptable for a person to beLIEve that he knows how god wants everyone on Earth to live, we will continue to murder one another on account of our myths. ~ Sam Harris, 'The End Of Faith'
    ~~~~~
    Christianity demands the crucifixion of the intellect.
    ~ Susan Kierkegaard

  7. #7
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    Re: Real debate?

    Re: Wheiny56

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard 3 View Post
    You do more than lack belief, attacking believers and posting religion-hate stuff you've gathered from around the web. Why do you post that stuff? Nobody reads it.

    You've won this episode - we can't provide scientific evidence that there's a God.

    For me the proof is everywhere but I understand that other people don't interpret things the same way.

    The Catholic Church has taught more people to read than any institution. They feed lots of starving people. You can respect religious institutions without knowing there's a God.

    Yoli Blast Cap.
    Quote Originally Posted by conserv4ever View Post
    Really? Looks to me like the other way around. "Joe is cool," while ohein posts like a madman desperate to do nothing more than offend. Shows a boy crying for attention. I've gone back to letting him have this forum. It's been thoroughly destroyed anyway.

    "Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you become like him."
    Originally Posted by nomaxim
    Sorry there ''ohein56', but it appears that 'Joecool44' does not have the position that you envision on this topic.

    'Joecool44' has, as a matter of routine, refuted most of your accusations
    Quote Originally Posted by Jax74 View Post
    Some people have the ability to think critically, some do not. ohein obviously doesn't.

  8. #8
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    Re: Real debate?

    As long as it is acceptable for a person to beLIEve that he knows how god wants everyone on Earth to live, we will continue to murder one another on account of our myths. ~ Sam Harris, 'The End Of Faith'
    ~~~~~
    Christianity demands the crucifixion of the intellect.
    ~ Susan Kierkegaard

  9. #9
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    Re: Real debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by noagenda View Post
    One of the things you either accept or reject are the books scribed or dictated by his original disciples. The books of Peter, John 1,2 & 3, James, Revelations were from people who supposedly knew Jesus so its origin would be much sooner than 100 - 300 years. Paul was also a contemporary and knew Peter and James. What is interesting is that the "stories" of Jesus seem to have been documented later. As far as his miracles being documented and circulated within the empire, there were allot of claims of miracles during that time. Here is an interesting link:

    http://infidels.org/library/modern/r...ier/kooks.html
    Ok cool, real debate... love it.

    I was under the impression that the books of the NT were written via word of mouth much later.


    That link is great. I'll read the rest of it later. Thanks

    Of course the next obvious question for you is... if quackery was so common in theose days why does Jesus stand out?

  10. #10
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    Re: Real debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
    Re: Wheiny56
    Nothing original, huh?

    Is that all u do is cut an paste other people's thoughts....rofl!!
    As long as it is acceptable for a person to beLIEve that he knows how god wants everyone on Earth to live, we will continue to murder one another on account of our myths. ~ Sam Harris, 'The End Of Faith'
    ~~~~~
    Christianity demands the crucifixion of the intellect.
    ~ Susan Kierkegaard

  11. #11
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    Re: Real debate?



    Last edited by ohein56; 10-13-2014 at 02:04 PM.
    As long as it is acceptable for a person to beLIEve that he knows how god wants everyone on Earth to live, we will continue to murder one another on account of our myths. ~ Sam Harris, 'The End Of Faith'
    ~~~~~
    Christianity demands the crucifixion of the intellect.
    ~ Susan Kierkegaard

  12. #12
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    Re: Real debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
    What is there to debate? There is no bonafide scientific evidence/proof of God's existence or non existence.

    You reject the Bible as being a fairy tale.

    What is left to debate?
    Awwwww...glad we finally got there!!

    As long as it is acceptable for a person to beLIEve that he knows how god wants everyone on Earth to live, we will continue to murder one another on account of our myths. ~ Sam Harris, 'The End Of Faith'
    ~~~~~
    Christianity demands the crucifixion of the intellect.
    ~ Susan Kierkegaard

  13. #13
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    Re: Real debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
    So posting attacks and insulting memes is not real debate?

    Even if there were many scribes, they were not apparently following Jesus around. And of those who did note the stories, many accounts matched up despite the passage of time. It's not like these folks had IPads at their disposal. Writing these accounts likely were painstaking activities and we also did not have libraries to store these accounts. It is also likely that many written accounts were destroyed over time and never discovered.
    Another perfect meme...on topic.

    As long as it is acceptable for a person to beLIEve that he knows how god wants everyone on Earth to live, we will continue to murder one another on account of our myths. ~ Sam Harris, 'The End Of Faith'
    ~~~~~
    Christianity demands the crucifixion of the intellect.
    ~ Susan Kierkegaard

  14. #14

    Re: Real debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by tomInAustin View Post
    Ok cool, real debate... love it.

    I was under the impression that the books of the NT were written via word of mouth much later.


    That link is great. I'll read the rest of it later. Thanks

    Of course the next obvious question for you is... if quackery was so common in theose days why does Jesus stand out?
    Peter, Paul, John and James were writing letters to churches that they established so even if they aren't the original manuscripts I beleive they were written in "real time" I'm sure the elders duplicated those documents and those duplications are what we have. After the destruction of the temple by the Romans, Judaism was outlawed by Rome. Christianity was considered a sub-set of Judaism so it too would have been outlawed. Having written documents would have been punishable by death. The fact that the Dead Sea scrolls were found in caves is a good indicator that having these documents would be precarious to your health. By the beginning of the second century and through to the third, Christianity was so established (including upper society) that by that time it was much safer and necessary to put their faith down on paper. At least this is my opinion. Why did Jesus stand out ? I think Paul and people like him were great evangelists.

  15. #15
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    Re: Real debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by noagenda View Post
    Peter, Paul, John and James were writing letters to churches that they established so even if they aren't the original manuscripts I beleive they were written in "real time" I'm sure the elders duplicated those documents and those duplications are what we have. After the destruction of the temple by the Romans, Judaism was outlawed by Rome. Christianity was considered a sub-set of Judaism so it too would have been outlawed. Having written documents would have been punishable by death.
    That was a great explanation. Now where the hell is Bibleman, we could revive this forum with intelligent talk like this.


    The fact that the Dead Sea scrolls were found in caves is a good indicator that having these documents would be precarious to your health.
    Ah, that is why the dead sea is dead?

    ;)


    By the beginning of the second century and through to the third, Christianity was so established (including upper society) that by that time it was much safer and necessary to put their faith down on paper. At least this is my opinion. Why did Jesus stand out ? I think Paul and people like him were great evangelists.
    You seem to base your faith on logic and not a blind belief. There was a time in my life that I envied that in people. I was in a church group with several PHDs in hard science. Chemistry, physics etc. I admired that they knew the scientific method and still believe.

  16. #16
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    Re: Real debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by noagenda View Post
    Peter, Paul, John and James were writing letters to churches that they established so even if they aren't the original manuscripts I beleive they were written in "real time" I'm sure the elders duplicated those documents and those duplications are what we have. After the destruction of the temple by the Romans, Judaism was outlawed by Rome. Christianity was considered a sub-set of Judaism so it too would have been outlawed. Having written documents would have been punishable by death. The fact that the Dead Sea scrolls were found in caves is a good indicator that having these documents would be precarious to your health. By the beginning of the second century and through to the third, Christianity was so established (including upper society) that by that time it was much safer and necessary to put their faith down on paper. At least this is my opinion. Why did Jesus stand out ? I think Paul and people like him were great evangelists.
    Here's what dusty thinks...Click Here!
    As long as it is acceptable for a person to beLIEve that he knows how god wants everyone on Earth to live, we will continue to murder one another on account of our myths. ~ Sam Harris, 'The End Of Faith'
    ~~~~~
    Christianity demands the crucifixion of the intellect.
    ~ Susan Kierkegaard

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