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  1. #1
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    Searching for our common ground.

    Hello People,

    Here I am again, asking questions. :rolleyes: I have seen the debates, arguments, tirades, ranting, and venting on many political message boards. One thing I have not seen, and possible missed, is the personal cost of the debates, augments ect. The personal stake in the, laying of blame. The ferocious defense of political positions however, I have seen here, some people talk about the real life cost of, governmental agencies, unfair legislation, shortsighted laws. But now I want to shift some of the debate about the "big issues" from the political to the personal. With the hoped for, cooperation from the users, and if need be, permission of the moderators.

    Subjects:

    Gay marriage -- What is the problem with allowing people of the same gender to benefit from the many laws and protection of legal marriage?

    Religion displaced in a *public sphere*-- How/why does this issue anger so many people?

    Abortion -- What is wrong with having abortion on demand?

    Immigration -- While illegal immigration is enforced, people still get very angry about immigration, why?

    Wealth redistribution -- What is REALLY wrong with making sure, that the these least of us are housed, fed, and clothed? **I am not talking about, living the Life of Riley ( or livin' large, for the young :)), I am talking about the basic, needs of life. Also, I am not saying Bill Gates could not keep his money. Or that the rest of us, could not make as much as the Bill Gates world.**

    Sex education in the schools -- Isn't comprehensive sex education to preteens and teenagers a form of birth control, AIDS and STD prevention, and responsible, healthy introduction to adult life? Sex is a part of human life, and can be explained scientifically, and rationally, shouldn't t be taught as part of health and/or biology classes?


    The shift:

    Instead of looking at these subjects in a political light, how about we look at how they might affect our personal, politics, situation, and mostly importantly, our everyday lives. I am of the opinion, that how we live in our everyday lives, dictates how well, our cities, states, countries and world will fair. To put it another way, our lives and world are a Mandelbrot set.
    Mandelbrot Set


    I hope I have not offended anyone, that is not my intention.
    Please reply, I want to learn from my fellow humans. I hope we all can learn from each other.

    Thanks
    DeeDee1965

  2. #2
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    Re: Searching for our common ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee1965

    Subjects:

    Gay marriage -- What is the problem with allowing people of the same gender to benefit from the many laws and protection of legal marriage?
    I have no problem with it...
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee1965
    Religion displaced in a *public sphere*-- How/why does this issue anger so many people?
    People... more appropriately Fundamentalist based Christian people... have the most problem with this as a general rule and for a variety of reasons. Personally, my views follow basic fundamentalist tradition... but on a personal level. I don't hold for people telling me what or how to believe... I don't have to answer to them. So I'm, pretty much, indifferent on the topic, but will "play devil's advocate' from time to time. It has been my experience that your general fundamentalist type believes they have to "convert" others to their way of believing which leads to their opposition to change... like in the Pledge of Allegance for example.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee1965
    Abortion -- What is wrong with having abortion on demand?
    Absolutely nothing. I support freedom of choice which means all options should be available and that individuals should be counselled on their available options.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee1965
    Immigration -- While illegal immigration is enforced, people still get very angry about immigration, why?
    Because it is not enforced very well and present immigration regulations/laws are enforced/followed up on even less.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee1965
    Wealth redistribution -- What is REALLY wrong with making sure, that the these least of us are housed, fed, and clothed? **I am not talking about, living the Life of Riley ( or livin' large, for the young :)), I am talking about the basic, needs of life. Also, I am not saying Bill Gates could not keep his money. Or that the rest of us, could not make as much as the Bill Gates world.**
    Posted elsewhere here is a link, I don't recall where, to a site which is attempting to promote a 1% flat rate tax. It's a good idea, but I don't think it will fly because of the VERY POWERFUL lobbyists, etc... in place to protect the wealthy and their tax shelter/break interests.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee1965
    Sex education in the schools -- Isn't comprehensive sex education to preteens and teenagers a form of birth control, AIDS and STD prevention, and responsible, healthy introduction to adult life? Sex is a part of human life, and can be explained scientifically, and rationally, shouldn't t be taught as part of health and/or biology classes?
    Agreed... it must be in place and taught. It is, however, NOT the responsibility of the schools to teach morality... that is the parents/churches jobs, respectively.

    *************
    Good topic. If I didn't say "Hi" before... "Hi DeeDee" and welcome aboard.

    cheers,
    Paul

  3. #3
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    Re: Searching for our common ground.

    Gay marriage -- What is the problem with allowing people of the same gender to benefit from the many laws and protection of legal marriage?

    The problem is religion in politics.


    Religion displaced in a *public sphere*-- How/why does this issue anger so many people?

    If you stop religious types from bothering people in the street they will be forced to talk to each other, realize how annoying they are, and quit religion altogether. Then what? They will have to admit that they don't have direct connect with God, and join the rest of us heathens.

    Abortion -- What is wrong with having abortion on demand?

    Nothing is wrong with it if you don't value human life, I guess.

    Immigration -- While illegal immigration is enforced, people still get very angry about immigration, why?

    Their lives suck and immigrants are easy to blame, and I really believe that *****in' about immigrants is one of the few chances everyday men and woman get to feel superior to someone else.

    Wealth redistribution -- What is REALLY wrong with making sure, that the these least of us are housed, fed, and clothed? **I am not talking about, living the Life of Riley ( or livin' large, for the young ), I am talking about the basic, needs of life. Also, I am not saying Bill Gates could not keep his money. Or that the rest of us, could not make as much as the Bill Gates world.

    Capitalism.

    Sex education in the schools -- Isn't comprehensive sex education to preteens and teenagers a form of birth control, AIDS and STD prevention, and responsible, healthy introduction to adult life? Sex is a part of human life, and can be explained scientifically, and rationally, shouldn't t be taught as part of health and/or biology classes?

    If your going to teach the mechanics of sex in schools, as much emphasis should be placed on the psychology and the emotional impact of sex. What they teach in most schools is pretty disrespectful-there's more to sex than making sure you wear a condom so you don't catch something nasty or get the girl pregnant.
    Last edited by Smashingplates; 10-08-2005 at 10:56 PM.

  4. #4
    tommywho70x Guest

    Re: Searching for our common ground.

    Hi DeeDee,

    You sure are having fun fractalizing your fairytale here, sweet cheeks!
    Mandelbrot Sets?

    How do you know you're not just a bezier with an unusual bernoulli connected via moore's law to the pulse of micro-wave space toasters launching slices of burnt toast filled with your questions of the Kodak Moment in Life Engine of DeeDee1965Y! es? would you like to chat about SOMETHING with ME.~??AKA tommywho70> editweather.
    Forecast News

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  5. #5
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    Re: Searching for our common ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee1965
    Gay marriage -- What is the problem with allowing people of the same gender to benefit from the many laws and protection of legal marriage?
    I do not have a problem w/gay "marriage" .... I have a problem w/it being called "a marriage". I think they need to call it something else, such as "gay unity".
    Marriage is between a man & a woman, period.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee1965
    Religion displaced in a *public sphere*-- How/why does this issue anger so many people?
    I think it all comes down to tradition. Why change something that is good.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee1965
    Abortion -- What is wrong with having abortion on demand?
    On demand?? I believe a woman should be counseled & truly know/understand that this is the right choice for her.
    Abortion is fine AS LONG AS it is done w/in the early stages of pregnancy. Any abortions after the 1st 2-3 months of pregnancy is WRONG.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee1965
    Immigration -- While illegal immigration is enforced, people still get very angry about immigration, why?
    I don't have a problem w/letting immigrants into our country, as long as it is done legally.
    It needs to be done legally for many reasons.
    1) for the safety of those entering our country.
    2) we need to know who & what is coming into this country....
    For example; criminals, drugs, terrorists, diseases, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee1965
    Wealth redistribution -
    Must be done in a fair manner. Same tax percent for all.
    Example....10% of $100 is still more than 10% of $1
    (therefore those who make more $ would still be paying more taxes)

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee1965
    - What is REALLY wrong with making sure, that the these least of us are housed, fed, and clothed?
    Absolutely nothing. Which is why we have so many govn.t facilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee1965
    Sex education in the schools -- Isn't comprehensive sex education to preteens and teenagers a form of birth control, AIDS and STD prevention, and responsible, healthy introduction to adult life? Sex is a part of human life, and can be explained scientifically, and rationally, shouldn't t be taught as part of health and/or biology classes?
    Yes, it should be taught. All factual w/o opinion.

  6. #6
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    Re: Searching for our common ground.

    Very well done Payek!!!!
    I am truly impressed your realistic considerations to the questions posed.

    I will therefore ditto payeks answers. I would have been a little more fervent in my responses - so I choose to let the payek responses speak for me.
    All but the last question.

    Quote Originally Posted by deedee
    Sex education in the schools -- Isn't comprehensive sex education to preteens and teenagers a form of birth control, AIDS and STD prevention, and responsible, healthy introduction to adult life? Sex is a part of human life, and can be explained scientifically, and rationally, shouldn't t be taught as part of health and/or biology classes?
    Sex education may be taught as it is in most schools biology curriculum, IF the same school dedicates the identical ammount of detail and time in Social Studies dealing with abstinence. If the school in question WILL NOT instruct the fact that abstinence improves a students chance of success in life via Social Studies classes, then Abstinence must be included as a header and footer to sex-ed in biology class. Oh, by the way, No more sex props allowed in class like some progressive schools are trying to pull off.

  7. #7
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    Re: Searching for our common ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee1965

    Gay marriage -- What is the problem with allowing people of the same gender to benefit from the many laws and protection of legal marriage?
    No problem, homosexual unions should have the same protections as heterosexual unions. Don't call ANY of it marriage, heterosexuals devalued that word a long long time ago. Just look at the divorce rate.

    Religion displaced in a *public sphere*-- How/why does this issue anger so many people?
    I really liked Smashingplates answer, lol. But it does boil down to freedom to practice the B.S. (belief system) of your choice without being ridiculed or told it's full of bunk. There would be no anger if people in general and religious zealots in particular would practice what they are taught about respecting other people's right to believe how they choose. Christians seem to forget that many people came to America to escape religioius persecution and here we are in the 21st century taking religious persecution to new heights and sanctioning it with political amendments. No wonder Jesus wept.

    Abortion -- What is wrong with having abortion on demand?
    If you are over 18, nothing. Under 18, a parent should have to be notified and both child and parent counseled. Late term, that is just too sick. I am not an advocate of abortion but I do feel that sometimes it feels like it's the only way and I don't think we should rob women of safe and sterile environments in which to have the procedure done. Eliminating this freedom will not stop abortions, it will just take it to the black market.

    Immigration -- While illegal immigration is enforced, people still get very angry about immigration, why?
    Prejudice and fear. Those kind of people would also wear white robes with pointy hats.

    Wealth redistribution -- What is REALLY wrong with making sure, that the these least of us are housed, fed, and clothed? **I am not talking about, living the Life of Riley ( or livin' large, for the young :)), I am talking about the basic, needs of life. Also, I am not saying Bill Gates could not keep his money. Or that the rest of us, could not make as much as the Bill Gates world.**
    I don't think that redistributing the wealth is the answer, but I do think we should eliminate many if not most of the tax cuts to the wealthy, eliminate welfare and raise the minimum wage to allow those in minimum wage positions the ability to make a decent living. It's been 8 years since it was last raised. (Gee, wouldn't that be the Clinton administration?) Who the hell can survive, much less support a child on $5.15 an hour these days?

    Sex education in the schools -- Isn't comprehensive sex education to preteens and teenagers a form of birth control, AIDS and STD prevention, and responsible, healthy introduction to adult life? Sex is a part of human life, and can be explained scientifically, and rationally, shouldn't t be taught as part of health and/or biology classes?
    I'm 46, they taught sex education in school when I was a teen. And sex education is part of a health class, at least in Texas it is. But I think the teachers need to get over their embarrassment and get real with these kids on the danger of STD's. Prevent STD's and guess what, you'll prevent unwanted teen pregnancies.

    Morality is taught in the home and churches. We've really dropped the ball there thinking our government, hollywood and ourselves capable of teaching our kids that. If we were such a moral nation, would there be so much cheating on spouses and such a high divorce rate? You gotta look in the mirror first before pointing a finger at someone else.

    Lady Mod
    Last edited by sojustask; 10-09-2005 at 02:44 PM.

  8. #8
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    Re: Searching for our common ground.

    Sojustask said:
    No problem, homosexual unions should have the same protections as heterosexual unions. Don't call ANY of it marriage, heterosexuals devalued that word a long long time ago. Just look at the divorce rate.

    Excellent :cool:

  9. #9
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    Re: Searching for our common ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by Raider
    Very well done Payek!!!!
    I am truly impressed your realistic considerations to the questions posed.

    I will therefore ditto payeks answers. I would have been a little more fervent in my responses - so I choose to let the payek responses speak for me.
    All but the last question.

    What did you do, hold a gun to her head? I think she deserves another night out for that. ;)

    Lady Mod

  10. #10
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    Re: Searching for our common ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by sojustask
    What did you do, hold a gun to her head? I think she deserves another night out for that. ;)

    Lady Mod
    Her responses were clear, concise, correct and coherent. There was no gun involved nor depravity of sustenance. To tell you the truth, I was very proud of her responses. She makes a lot of sense - read her answers again! :cool:

  11. #11
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    Re: Searching for our common ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeeDee1965
    Gay marriage -- What is the problem with allowing people of the same gender to benefit from the many laws and protection of legal marriage?
    There is NO PROBLEM with this.. none at all. It's DISCRIMINATION that, in my eyes, is no different that being prejudice against African Americans or Jewish people or whomever... The homophobic fears of those who are opposed to gay/lesbian relationships cause these people to be treated grossly unfair in this country. The word "marriage" has been played to the hilt and could EASILY be worked around if the bigots in this country would just give it up. I'm sure gays and lesbians would be happy to be "united in partnership", they don't have to be "MARRIED". They just want the SAME RIGHTS that all other "united" couples have and YES - they are ENTITLED TO THAT and they ABSOLUTELY DESERVE IT.

    Religion displaced in a *public sphere*-- How/why does this issue anger so many people?
    Sheer LACK of RESPECT for others beliefs and THEIR RIGHT to believe as they choose....

    Abortion -- What is wrong with having abortion on demand?
    There is nothing wrong with it. The definition of "when a fetus becomes a human" needs to be changed. It SHOULD BE week 13 of the pregnancy, when the umbilical cord begins to supply nourishment to the fetus - INSTEAD of "at birth", as it is now. I think this would rid of us of "legal" late term abortions, because they would then be murder.

    I could go on about this FOREVER!.. But to those who are anti-abortion, I will just say, on behalf of those who decide to have an abortion... this is a "mind you own F*****G business" issue. It's between the woman, her doctor, God and in some RARE cases, the Father of the child. But NO ONE ELSE.

    Immigration -- While illegal immigration is enforced, people still get very angry about immigration, why?
    WHERE is it enforced? This is an easy one for me.. If you're going to be in this country, you need to become a U.S. citizen and pay taxes like the rest of us do. If you're NOT a citizen and have no proof of WHO you are and WHY you are here - then GET OUT and STAY OUT. And oh, by the way... if you choose to become a citizen, you HAVE TO SPEAK ENGLISH.. :rolleyes:

    Wealth redistribution -- What is REALLY wrong with making sure, that the these least of us are housed, fed, and clothed?
    Again, there is NOTHING wrong with this. But for this to happen, EVERYONE has to have some level of compassion for their fellow Americans. The elite, rich people in this country don't care about the "little people". They "look down" on this part of the population and refer to them as "trailer trash".

    Besides.. haven't you heard?... "The one who dies with the most toys, wins"... :rolleyes:

    Sex education in the schools --
    I think this has changed alot in some school systems, at least it has in some of them here, in Connecticut. They have a Child Development course, that covers EVERYTHING - the human body, the act of sex, the emotional aspects and social issues. They also have a "Baby Think It Over" program that deals with the REALITY of teen pregnancy. This type of education is a MUST HAVE for teenagers.

  12. #12
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    Re: Searching for our common ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by sojustask
    What did you do, hold a gun to her head?

    Lady Mod
    LOL.. I was thinking along the same lines!! Only I saw it that SHE had TRAINED HIM very well. ;)

  13. #13
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    Re: Searching for our common ground.

    [QUOTE=Connecticut Victim]
    This is an easy one for me.. If you're going to be in this country, you need to become a U.S. citizen and pay taxes like the rest of us do. ,,,, if you choose to become a citizen, you HAVE TO SPEAK ENGLISH.. :rolleyes:



    QUOTE]

    Why should I become a U.S Citizen? This may come as a surprise CV, but I actually pay taxes living here, like everyone else.

    Why is it so important that Non-US residents/citizens speak english? I was led to believe Americans value cultural diversity, and in anycase your statement implies that those who are not American and move here are not interested in learning English, and that's just not the case.

    Most immigrants are desperate to learn English because they want to make the U.S their home as much as those who were born here.

  14. #14
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    Re: Searching for our common ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by Smashingplates
    Why should I become a U.S Citizen? This may come as a surprise CV, but I actually pay taxes living here, like everyone else.
    Then this doesn't apply to you SP :) .. but MOST DO NOT..

    Why is it so important that Non-US residents/citizens speak english? I was led to believe Americans value cultural diversity, and in anycase your statement implies that those who are not American and move here are not interested in learning English, and that's just not the case.
    English IS the language of choice here in the U.S. If one is going to live here, they SHOULD be able to communicate with US, not the other way around! I should not have to learn to speak Spanish or Hebrew or whatever in order to but a pack of cigarettes at the local gas station on the corner! Cultural diversity is GREAT, but if I were going to live in France, I would learn to speak FRENCH - THEIR language. I WOULD NOT expect them to know English just to accommodate me! I would be in THEIR country!!

    What's that saying..."When in Rome, do as the Romans do".. or something like that.. ;)

    Most immigrants are desperate to learn English because they want to make the U.S their home as much as those who were born here.
    I don't know where you are honey.... but THAT IS NOT the case around here!

  15. #15
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    Re: Searching for our common ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by Connecticut Victim
    If you're going to be in this country, you need to become a U.S. citizen and pay taxes like the rest of us do. If you're NOT a citizen and have no proof of WHO you are and WHY you are here - then GET OUT and STAY OUT. And oh, by the way... if you choose to become a citizen, you HAVE TO SPEAK ENGLISH.. :rolleyes:
    I agree with SP...there's no need for immigrants to become citizens..if you're a registered legal alien resident thats good enough...btw when these guys have no citizenship its more difficult for them to receive benefits...and believe me there's a lot of alien residence in the US who head huge companies and bring a lot of prosperity to this country without being a citizen...i still have a lot of Dutch relatives who've come to the US on work visas representing large corporations but chose to never become US citizens because they didn't want to give up their Dutch citizensip....believe me, until we can fill all these positions with educated people ourselves we should be welcoming experienced and smart people!!!...for example all those nurses who are gonna be coming from India soon...they're all gonna be needed because of the lack of support staff in hospitals...they aren't taking anyone's jobs because no one wants to do those jobs anymore...not enough people are going to school for those positions...so why not welcome these foreigners...even if they don't want to become US citizens they'll still be paying taxes....even illegal immigration is important to our economy because a lot of us aren't gonna do the jobs they do...their labor is needed...hell are you gonna work at taco bell 10hrs a day for min. wage?...i don't think so..and i certainly don't wanna be paying tax to keep people out who make my products cheaper...im not gonna pay our government to kick out pedro so that bill can have his job a $2 more/hr and then i have to pay $5 more for my meal because of it...i'll be losing money twice...once in taxes and once in cost of goods!!

  16. #16
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    Re: Searching for our common ground.

    Quote Originally Posted by mroels
    I agree with SP...there's no need for immigrants to become citizens..if you're a registered legal alien resident thats good enough
    Did you read my post? I said: "If you're NOT a citizen and have no proof of WHO you are and WHY you are here - then GET OUT and STAY OUT". - this obviously DOES NOT APPLY to registered legal aliens, right???

    even illegal immigration is important to our economy because a lot of us aren't gonna do the jobs they do...their labor is needed...hell are you gonna work at taco bell 10hrs a day for min. wage?...i don't think so..and i certainly don't wanna be paying tax to keep people out who make my products cheaper...im not gonna pay our government to kick out pedro so that bill can have his job a $2 more/hr and then i have to pay $5 more for my meal because of it...i'll be losing money twice...once in taxes and once in cost of goods!!
    You are certainly entitled to your opinion here, but I disagree with you. Illegal workers in this country are extremely detrimental to our economy.. How many people have LOST their jobs because Pedro IS WILLING to do their job for less money?? How many tax dollars ARE NOT collected in a year from illegal workers?? Pedro's not working at Taco Bell, unless Taco Bell is breaking the law, because Pedro is here ILLEGALLY, with no social security number; unless, of course, he has obtained a fake one thru the black market.. and if that is the case, he can now apply for credit cards that he can MAX OUT and purchase new vehicles that he WON'T PAY FOR and then split back to Mexico with all his goodies and leave the rest of holding the bag... He can stay gone for a little while; then come back and visit his friendly black market supplier for a NEW I.D. and start all over again... Damn - maybe I should become an illegal? - I could probably get one or two or three of those black market I.D.s myself.. :rolleyes:

    But anyway, back to Pedro... he is mostly doing manual labor in construction, where he can easily be paid cash. The construction companies that employ the Pedros can then underbid those legit companies who DO NOT employ Pedro, eventually putting the legit companies out of business - hence: MORE unemployment. It's a viscious cycle that will only get worse as time goes on.

    We should all be happy to see businesses have to pay American citizens a HIGHER WAGE, so they can support their familes and get out of the welfare system. So what if it makes our meal cost a little more? Who do think is paying to take care of them through the "system"??

    And let's not overlook the SAFETY ISSUES of allowing every Tom, Dick and Pedro into this country... another 9-11 in the making. :mad:
    Last edited by Connecticut Victim; 10-10-2005 at 03:49 AM.

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