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  1. #33
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    Re: Christians Against Abortions and Homosexuals

    Quote Originally Posted by tomInAustin View Post
    I'd like to see some links to that. I came up with nothing in a search. "Death threats" is a bit over the top,

    I read an article several months back about a cake shop who's owners were Christians.
    A lesbian couple came into the shop to buy a wedding cake and were refused.

    The lesbian couple proceeded to gather all their friends and started protesting and mailing letters, many of which were full of threats, to the establishment and later to the couple's home.

    It forced the couple, through fear of these people, to shut down; to which the gay rights folks claimed victory over another 'bigoted' couple............all the while not realizing that they were guilty of the very thing they fought against so hard.

    I always thought one of the beautiful things about being a business owner was being able to choose who you will and will not do business with.........but some folks think they should be allowed to do whatever they want, wherever they want, and owner's choice be damned.

    The lesbians should have thanked them kindly and went to a different cake shop. I'm sure they're real proud.

  2. #34
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    Re: Christians Against Abortions and Homosexuals

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    However if this "Personal God" in question wanted to be discovered, he would need to allow Himself to be discovered by scientists in a perfectly controlled laboratory environment, under strict control by scientific observers, so that there would be no doubt.
    It's clear based on scriptures that God desires a degree of faith. Jesus loved children because they had unwavering faith.

    I honestly believe that no amount of evidence would be sufficient for the most hard core of non believers. Even the disciples who witnessed miracles first hand had trouble with their faith at times.
    Originally Posted by nomaxim
    Sorry there ''ohein56', but it appears that 'Joecool44' does not have the position that you envision on this topic.

    'Joecool44' has, as a matter of routine, refuted most of your accusations
    Quote Originally Posted by Jax74 View Post
    Some people have the ability to think critically, some do not. ohein obviously doesn't.

  3. #35
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    Re: Christians Against Abortions and Homosexuals

    Quote Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
    It's clear based on scriptures that God desires a degree of faith. Jesus loved children because they had unwavering faith.

    I honestly believe that no amount of evidence would be sufficient for the most hard core of non believers. Even the disciples who witnessed miracles first hand had trouble with their faith at times.


    Its that childlike faith and belief that preachers the world over attempt to encourage adults to harken back to........

    I can't help but think, though, how ignorant and foolish children are. Children cease their childlike thinking, not by the number of years they accumulate, but through the school of hard knocks, life, disillusionment, and growth. As the years pass, they gain greater understanding of the world, and by doing so, the magic dies.


    The disciples didn't have trouble believing in God. They had trouble believing in the one they called "teacher, rabbi, prophet."

    When he had risen, their faith blossomed, as they finally became aware that he wasn't just a teacher, wasn't just a man.......but was truly the Messiah, the Christ, the risen son of the living God.

    After that, their story dies and is replaced with snapshots of them (the leaders), dealing with others' unbelief.

  4. #36
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    Re: Christians Against Abortions and Homosexuals

    I honestly believe that no amount of evidence would be sufficient for the most hard core of non believers. Even the disciples who witnessed miracles first hand had trouble with their faith at times.
    Speaking strictly for myself, I can state that if a Being such as this ever exposed Himself to scientists in the exact controlled manner I described, and they discovered supernatural evidence displayed by this Entity, I would study the results, and decide on the merits that were given.

    Faith in observation, testing, and experience trumps blind, emotionally-generated faith every time. Not certain if this is true? Contrary to 2 Corinthians 5:7, we do not walk by faith only. Faith in our observations and experiences, yes.

    Heres an example of what I'm speaking about:

    The next time that you hike up a rugged, rocky mountain trail, place a blindfold around your eyes and try walking up the narrow and rugged path using only your faith.

    Next, lets pretend that you have never walked before in your life! You will then ONLY be utilizing faith to walk...........blindfolded!

    In practice, you must know where to place your footfalls and where not to. We have faith in our observations and our experience of climbing this type of trail. This is the practical essence of our reality.
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

  5. #37
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    Re: Christians Against Abortions and Homosexuals

    Heck, Ghost!
    There's never been even the slightest peep or glimmer or flash from a "ghost" or demon or imp or angel or god or God, let alone one who'd let us draw his blood and blindfold him while he pats his head and rubs his tummy........

    First things first. Let's FIND the dude, and THEN we'll ask him to turn his head and cough.

  6. #38
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    Re: Christians Against Abortions and Homosexuals

    Quote Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
    Some of the points you provided, I've debated, I provided explanations for. For example, there was one example you cited where the "bad things" being done, were done by a king but it was posted as if God had done them. A lot of the debatable points we talked about were like that, where the one line quote did not mention the text just before or after the quote.

    There are some things mentioned of disaster happening to people which many atheists like to cite, but don't mention that those were things the prophets said God would do IF they did not obey his command.

    In the end, atheists will not be convinced, nor will the believers, simply because of debate on this forum.

    Truth is, whether you believe in God or in the Big Bang scientific theory, a degree of faith is needed either way as was pointed out in Hawking's theory, the world was created out of nothing. It would take great faith to believe that one. Even though scientists have created a timeline for the universe that can be explained, one cannot completely rule out the possibility of a creator.

    True science, I believe would be a search for the truth, even if that truth ultimately proves there is a God who created the universe.

    Questions. Easy ones.

    How old do you think the earth is?
    Did god create it in 6 days?

  7. #39
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    Re: Christians Against Abortions and Homosexuals

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    Speaking strictly for myself, I can state that if a Being such as this ever exposed Himself to scientists in the exact controlled manner I described, and they discovered supernatural evidence displayed by this Entity, I would study the results, and decide on the merits that were given.

    Faith in observation, testing, and experience trumps blind, emotionally-generated faith every time. Not certain if this is true? Contrary to 2 Corinthians 5:7, we do not walk by faith only. Faith in our observations and experiences, yes.

    Heres an example of what I'm speaking about:

    The next time that you hike up a rugged, rocky mountain trail, place a blindfold around your eyes and try walking up the narrow and rugged path using only your faith.

    Next, lets pretend that you have never walked before in your life! You will then ONLY be utilizing faith to walk...........blindfolded!

    In practice, you must know where to place your footfalls and where not to. We have faith in our observations and our experience of climbing this type of trail. This is the practical essence of our reality.

    Of course a good test would be if god moved that mountain into the see like he promised could happen. I would definitely show up for sunday school if god appeared, moved a mountain into the sea, stopped the tsunami and then put the mountain back.

  8. #40
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    Re: Christians Against Abortions and Homosexuals

    Quote Originally Posted by tomInAustin View Post
    Did god create it in 6 days?
    Does anyone here know how God measures days? It might not be days as we humans know it.
    Originally Posted by nomaxim
    Sorry there ''ohein56', but it appears that 'Joecool44' does not have the position that you envision on this topic.

    'Joecool44' has, as a matter of routine, refuted most of your accusations
    Quote Originally Posted by Jax74 View Post
    Some people have the ability to think critically, some do not. ohein obviously doesn't.

  9. #41
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    Re: Christians Against Abortions and Homosexuals

    Quote Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
    Does anyone here know how God measures days? It might not be days as we humans know it.

    Poor reasoning. Christians try to use that to claim their faith in creation and evolution.........BUT, when the bible says that "the evening and the morning were the first day" and so forth, it kinda throws that out the window, right?

  10. #42
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    Re: Christians Against Abortions and Homosexuals

    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman View Post
    Poor reasoning. Christians try to use that to claim their faith in creation and evolution.........BUT, when the bible says that "the evening and the morning were the first day" and so forth, it kinda throws that out the window, right?
    Not only that, but can't there be some clarity from the bible just once? Why is everything so convoluted, subject to total mystery, context or semantics??? god sure seems to be less than a perfect communicator in my book??? Wtf???

    Guess he never heard of the KISS theory, or simplicity is the sign of higher learning, huh?
    As long as it is acceptable for a person to beLIEve that he knows how god wants everyone on Earth to live, we will continue to murder one another on account of our myths. ~ Sam Harris, 'The End Of Faith'
    ~~~~~
    Christianity demands the crucifixion of the intellect.
    ~ Susan Kierkegaard

  11. #43
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    Re: Christians Against Abortions and Homosexuals

    I'll ask AGAIN...

    For all of the believers that have 'issues' with gays on this thread, ...a challenge.

    I challenge you to watch this video and give your honest opinion.

    Click Here!

    From the link...

    At 9:05, he pulls at the heartstrings of anyone who has them. At 24:12, he demolishes all arguments based on Leviticus, and he explains something you'll never forget about Old Testament "abominations" at 29:12. At 35:37, he unpacks the thorniest New Testament passage, burying the "unnatural" argument once and for all at 47:06.
    As long as it is acceptable for a person to beLIEve that he knows how god wants everyone on Earth to live, we will continue to murder one another on account of our myths. ~ Sam Harris, 'The End Of Faith'
    ~~~~~
    Christianity demands the crucifixion of the intellect.
    ~ Susan Kierkegaard

  12. #44
    conserv4ever is offline You Can't Handle the Truth! User Rank
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    Re: Christians Against Abortions and Homosexuals

    I would like to, but 24 + minutes???

    Sorry, but I already know what He says about homosexuality and killing your own child. Don't need to waste 24 minutes of my life. Give me the VERY short version

    Edit: Just went there 1 hour and 17 minutes? Really? No thanks.

  13. #45
    conserv4ever is offline You Can't Handle the Truth! User Rank
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    Re: Christians Against Abortions and Homosexuals

    Quote Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
    Does anyone here know how God measures days? It might not be days as we humans know it.

    Yes. He measures them the same way all sane people do. 24 hours. At least once, Jesus refered to the "day" as the 12 hour period of daylight, but then He included the Night portion.

    Don't be confused. Gen 1 vs 1 & 2 are talking about VASTLY different periods of time

    In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the earth That could have happened ANY time in the past.

    Now, MUCH later, after Satan and a third of the angels went to war against God, we read:

    And the earth BECAME without form and void

    And then, after this event, God began the 7 day process of making the earth ready for modern Man -- Man with the Spirit of Man which sets him apart from the other animals

  14. #46
    conserv4ever is offline You Can't Handle the Truth! User Rank
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    Re: Christians Against Abortions and Homosexuals

    Quote Originally Posted by ohein56 View Post
    I'll ask AGAIN...

    For all of the believers that have 'issues' with gays on this thread, ...a challenge.

    I challenge you to watch this video and give your honest opinion.

    Click Here!

    From the link...
    Okay just for you, I watched from minute 23 to 26.

    He doesn't understand the difference between God's FOUNDATIONAL Law (like the Ten Commandments) and hte Mosiac law rules and regulations for the priesthood etc.

    The Foundational Law is for ALL of Man including the one that most professing Christians are in rebellion against -- the Sabbath.

    These Laws apply to ALL Mankind -- even nonbelievers:

    You shall not murder
    You shall not steal
    You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
    You shall not have any gods besides me
    You shall not take the Name of the Lord your God in vain (which is why I take Allah's name in vain)
    Honor your father and mother
    You shall not lie with a man, as with a woman
    You shall not eat any unclean thing


    Here are a few who WON'T enter the Kingdom. Why make excuses? In the end, God is God. He says don't do these things. Both the OT & the New tell you the same thing. Just behave and live good decent lives. Your Father is watching and judging.

    But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

  15. #47
    conserv4ever is offline You Can't Handle the Truth! User Rank
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    Re: Christians Against Abortions and Homosexuals

    And why do n't you just embed the video? I'll do it for you:


  16. #48
    conserv4ever is offline You Can't Handle the Truth! User Rank
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    Re: Christians Against Abortions and Homosexuals

    Quote Originally Posted by tomInAustin View Post
    I agree with that. I did read the thread where Doyle showed himself to be a racist. He plead ignorance but it didn't fly. He displays the traits of the fanatic but so do you.

    And yes I am on the side of the truth or the truth as can be proved. That's why I continue to ask for any proof of a god. Just like I asked for proof in MLM arguments. Sadly, trying to debate you, Conserve, and Knot on religion is as futile as trying to debate Doyle on MLM. Every time I have offered up legitimate questions or points they are ignored.
    That's not what you're doing. You throw out "inconsistencies" that make the rounds of the the God-Haters. Some of us have dealt with MANY. I, myself have cleared up 3 that I remember. You then ignore the explanation as though you never received it and throw out another. I decided that if you can't see that the fact that you're in error in those, there's no point in playing this game with you. Some people just want to argue and not learn. You approach the Scriptures with a closed mind. Until you change, your "beliefs" never will.

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