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  1. #1
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    Biblical Incongruities

    I'd like to talk about some of the bible's incongruities, particularly Matthew 14:22-33, how Jesus supposedly walked on water.

    I've recently been investigating into how Jesus would expect to teach his disciples about faith with this "miracle" of walking on water when hes already supposedly performed several other "miracles" in their presence before this one.

    I would think that before this little walk occurred Christ's disciples would've already been convinced that he was indeed capable of magic, ie. "supernatural" feats. Why would they think that it was Christ's faith that caused him to do something special that they already knew that he knew he could do?

    If this event were factual, wouldn't the son of "God" be intelligent enough to realize that his disciples would already have faith in him from his prior events, each one of them knowing that Jesus could accomplish supernatural feats? So why would Jesus think that walking on water would teach his already influenced disciples about faith?

    Being the simple, loving teacher, why wouldn't Christ instead take the route of using, say, the Socratic method of teaching faith? Couldn't he see that his performing such a grandiose display would be viewed both then and in the future as a manipulation of the minds of these simple, small-town Bronze-age men?

    Furthermore, didn't Jesus know that such grandiose displays could promote him to everyone as an "exhibitionist?" IOW, what happened to the "simple man?"
    Last edited by GHOST DOG; 02-21-2014 at 03:14 PM.
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

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    Re: Biblical Incongruities

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    I'd like to talk about some of the bible's incongruities, particularly Matthew 14:22-33, how Jesus supposedly walked on water.

    I've recently been investigating into how Jesus would expect to teach his disciples about faith with this "miracle" of walking on water when hes already supposedly performed several other "miracles" in their presence before this one.

    I would think that before this little walk occurred Christ's disciples would've already been convinced that he was indeed capable of magic, ie. "supernatural" feats. Why would they think that it was Christ's faith that caused him to do something special that they already knew that he knew he could do?

    If this event were factual, wouldn't the son of "God" be intelligent enough to realize that his disciples would already have faith in him from his prior events, each one of them knowing that Jesus could accomplish supernatural feats? So why would Jesus think that walking on water would teach the already convinced disciples about faith?

    Being the simple, loving teacher, why wouldn't Christ instead take the route of using, say, the Socratic method of teaching faith? Couldn't he see that his performing such a grandiose display would be viewed both then and in the future as a manipulation of the minds of these simple, small-town Bronze-age men?

    Furthermore, didn't Jesus know that such grandiose displays could promote him to everyone as an "exhibitionist?" IOW, what happened to the "simple man?"
    There seems to be no collaborating evidence for the gospels. They were written 35 to 70 years after Jesus was murdered by Roman soldiers. They were written by Greeks, who wrote for a Christian audience. Apparently, being Greek, they didn't even visit the areas of Jesus's ministry. Also, J E Ws were not considered to be a reliable audience inasmuch as they were villains in gospel stories. Bart Erhman, a biblical scholarly, has written several books about the reliability problem. He does an excellent job debunking gospel stories.

    I have my own theory, which is, of course, without evidence. Jesus Christ was God, and God is a duality, so when the authors wrote about Jesus and his ministry they assumed he was the son of God. Jesus, being God, spoke of himself as two persons. Humans, not understanding God's duality, assumed the two persons were father and son. Thus began Christianity based on the trinity. Just about everything written in the Bible is based on second hand accounts: personal experiences without witnesses, rumors, and colorful stories by gifted story tellers. What can you believe?

    Well, someone might ask, what is the real story about Jesus. I believe Revelation 11 about the two witnesses is the true story, written, of course, by a man on an island experiencing visions from angels about God, heaven, and the future. Believing anything in the Bible requires a lot of faith.
    Last edited by Cnance; 02-21-2014 at 01:33 PM.

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    Re: Biblical Incongruities

    There seems to be no collaborating evidence for the gospels.
    Cnance, the gospels are the standard of the Christian belief system. This is what they're told to work with, as they're leaders mainly base the Christian dogma structure on the bible's writings.

    Christians are cautioned by the religious leaders not to look for discrepancies countering the biblical message.

    I'm striving to bring out the hypocrisy printed beneath it's covers.....there is plenty of it.
    Please bring forward any evidence of biblical incongruity, if you have it.

    I have my own theory, which is, of course, without evidence.
    So, why do you think that the bible is wrong and you are right?

    If you have personal internal evidence, (ie. a conflict with a certain passage or passages that seem to go against your senses of factual integrity with your experiences of life) how about sharing it?

    Jesus Christ was God, and God is a duality, so when the authors wrote about Jesus and his ministry they assumed he was the son of God.
    How do you know that "God" is a "duality?" Please explain how God, to you, is a duality. There are folks who think that Christ was a duality. (both a God and a man) Is this what you mean?

    I believe Revelation 11 about the two witnesses is the true story, written, of course, by a man on an island experiencing visions from angels about God, heaven, and the future.
    Do you place more weight of fact on visions than you do with ancient written accounts?
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

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    Re: Biblical Incongruities

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    Cnance, the gospels are the standard of the Christian belief system. This is what they're told to work with, as they're leaders mainly base the Christian dogma structure on the bible's writings.

    Christians are cautioned by the religious leaders not to look for discrepancies countering the biblical message.

    I'm striving to bring out the hypocrisy printed beneath it's covers.....there is plenty of it.
    Please bring forward any evidence of biblical incongruity, if you have it.

    So, why do you think that the bible is wrong and you are right?

    If you have personal internal evidence, (ie. a conflict with a certain passage or passages that seem to go against your senses of factual integrity with your experiences of life) how about sharing it?

    How do you know that "God" is a "duality?" Please explain how God, to you, is a duality. There are folks who think that Christ was a duality. (both a God and a man) Is this what you mean?

    Do you place more weight of fact on visions than you do with ancient written accounts?

    It's disappointing that none of the hard core believers here will debate.

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    Re: Biblical Incongruities

    It's disappointing that none of the hard core believers here will debate.
    I know what you mean....This drives me to wonder just how much faith they have in their "religious belief store room."
    Last edited by GHOST DOG; 02-21-2014 at 05:22 PM.
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

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    Re: Biblical Incongruities

    QUOTE=GHOST DOG;1723124]Cnance, the gospels are the standard of the Christian belief system. This is what they're told to work with, as they're leaders mainly base the Christian dogma structure on the bible's writings.

    Christians are cautioned by the religious leaders not to look for discrepancies countering the biblical message.
    Yes, that is why we have so many different religions. Remember Dojies comments about that. If you ask a pastor about discrepancies, he'll tell to let the holy spirit guide you, or he'll tell you his religious education has so informed him.


    I'm striving to bring out the hypocrisy printed beneath it's covers.....there is plenty of it.
    Please bring forward any evidence of biblical incongruity, if you have it.
    There's a lot. My favorite inconsistencies are Paul's writings.

    First he states, "there is no one who does good, not even one." Romans 3:12. Paul then goes on to extol human virtues. "For those God foreordained to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers, And those he justified, he also glorified." Romans 8:29.

    Then there are his comments about Jesus being the creator of all things, and above all things. "He is the image of the invisible God, the first born over all creation. For him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, things invisible and visible, whether thrones or rulers or powers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him." Colossians 1:15,16. Paul then elevates humans to divinity status with Jesus. "Now if we are children, then we are heirs --- heirs with God and co-heirs with Christ," Romans 8:17. Sounds like we are both the creation of Jesus and his equal.

    So, why do you think that the bible is wrong and you are right?
    This has been hot topic on this forum for some time. However for the sake of honesty, I must confess to having very vivid dreams about God, heaven, Satan, paradise, and the Bible. I am not trying to sell my ideas, they go against Christian theology. Pastors have told me Satan has told these things, but I don't care what they think. I am retired now and really don't care about consequences.


    If you have personal internal evidence, (ie. a conflict with a certain passage or passages that seem to go against your senses of factual integrity with your experiences of life) how about sharing it?
    As for the New Testament, my dreams have told me the following, Jesus is God, and God is a duality. In one dream, two Roman soldiers were standing over Jesus on his knees. One was beating him with his fist while the other watched. Jesus was not crucified. Much of what the gospels and Paul wrote are fairyland stories intended to promote romantic ideas about Jesus the son of God. I must admit I've had no dream that tells me that Rev. 11 about the two witnesses is the true story about Jesus (God), but, based on what I know, the story fits. Also, Rev. 12 is a perfect fit for what happened while God was in the world as Jesus. It's all about God's angels fighting Satan to keep him from attacking God on earth. If you notice, the time frame of 1,260 days is found in both chapters.

    How do you know that "God" is a "duality?" Please explain how God, to you, is a duality. There are folks who think that Christ was a duality. (both a God and a man) Is this what you mean?
    No, Christianity is based on the idea that Jesus was the son of God. I totally reject that idea. There is no trinity, just God's duality. I think the holy spirit was added to Christianity to give religious leaders authority over believers. I had a dream about being in heaven, I saw the angels around a sphere. Inside the sphere were two Gods, each identical, but each with it's own identity. One would interact with an angel or angels about something communicated, then the other would react to that exchange. The angels were in awe with each exchange. I think that goes on for all of eternity.

    So, if God is a duality, those son of God stories can be called into question. I think what really happened was God revealed his dual nature, but men couldn't understand it, so they made up son of God stories.

    Do you place more weight of fact on visions than you do with ancient written accounts?
    I try to understand ancient accounts in the context of my dreams.

    I would like to share a very dramatic dream. In an ancient field above thousands of dead soldiers, an angel, looking up at God, said, "it is done." It was as if the angel was telling God, mission accomplished. It fits with the story of the angel killing 185,000 Assyrian soldiers, Isaiah 37:36. Even though we find discrepancies in the OT, I think it is more accurate than the NT.

    I had a dream about the OT. I think I posted it. A voice said, "it happened, but not that way." That says a whole lot about Bible errors.
    Last edited by Cnance; 02-21-2014 at 10:04 PM.

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    Re: Biblical Incongruities

    Quote Originally Posted by tomInAustin View Post
    It's disappointing that none of the hard core believers here will debate.
    There's no point. Even when I took the time to research the passages/scripture and debate, there's not a chance the non believers will agree.
    Originally Posted by nomaxim
    Sorry there ''ohein56', but it appears that 'Joecool44' does not have the position that you envision on this topic.

    'Joecool44' has, as a matter of routine, refuted most of your accusations
    Quote Originally Posted by Jax74 View Post
    Some people have the ability to think critically, some do not. ohein obviously doesn't.

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    Re: Biblical Incongruities

    Quote Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
    There's no point. Even when I took the time to research the passages/scripture and debate, there's not a chance the non believers will agree.
    In the thread "Will I Believe" You made the claim that your God doesn't answer his disciple's prayers like some "Genie from a bottle." then I brought up this passage from John 14 that refutes your claim, effectively stating that God will answer his disciple's prayers.
    Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask me anything in my name, I will do it.
    And you came back to me with this line:

    "Jesus is speaking to the disciples when he says this.
    God will answer your prayers if you are doing his will and asking for something that is in God's will, aligned with God's nature and character."
    Then I quoted the dictionary, (Merriam-Webster) which is the standard of the English language:

    {According to Merriam-Webster} "if we follow and spread the teachings of a "famous person" we are disciples."
    I correctly asserted the claim, backed up by the dictionary's definition, that all followers of the Christian God, and Christ were, in fact disciples.

    But then I also spotted this excerpt from the same text in John:

    12 Very truly I tell you, WHOEVER believes in me will do the works I have been doing, (ALL disciples of Christ) and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.
    Apparently, going by this direct quote from your bible, all who believe in Jesus will do the work (miracles and teachings) that he was doing, but Jesus goes even further with the phrase, "and they will do even GREATER things than these." (greater miracles than his??)

    This line in the bible is not written as a generalization, but apparently from my investigations in Strong's Concordance, mostly verbatim!

    So, going back to the beginning of this post, you made the statement to tomInAustin:
    "There's no point. Even when I took the time to research the passages/scripture and debate, there's not a chance the non believers will agree."
    If you expect non-believers and past believers like me, who've found out that the bible carries no factual evidence for a God to agree with your assertions, Joe, I strongly suggest that you start by refuting any one, or all of my claims.

    Those being "There is no god of the Christian bible," or "The Christian bible isn't the 'book of truth' that Christianity claims it to be," or "IF (you prove to me that) there is a god, but since there has never been actual documented proof of any miracles coming forth from anyone on Earth, he has reneged on his promise made to all of his disciples in John 14."

    The standard of proof for miracles, supernatural events, again is Hume's Maxim:

    "That no testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that it's falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish."
    Last edited by GHOST DOG; 02-23-2014 at 03:47 PM.
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

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    Re: Biblical Incongruities

    i was just thinkin about IN-CON-GRUITY!? and what that means in relation to the bible!? whichever VERSION you are DRAWN to!? i mean the JOOS dont recognize the BIBLE as SUCH they have their OWN "scripture' you might say!? so back to my FIRST statement about IN and CON and GRUITY!? which i have to say in my opinion is GRUESOME!? so then the bible has many GRUESOME things in it, NO!? which you might say goes AGAINST the idea of a PERFECT, ALL LOVING god!? so CONS exist and they are GRUESOME in NATURE we only have ask WHY they EXIST and WHAT are the SIGNS!? if god is GOOD then WHY do such GRUESOME things EXIST and WHY do they PERSIST if the ANSWER of ALL ANSWERS has COME and LEFT and PROMISED that it will get BETTER so to SPEAK..........IF..........IF what!? if i buy a plane ticket to HAWAII and have a PLACE to STAY?! : :crazy1: :spin2:
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    Re: Biblical Incongruities

    Quote Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
    There's no point. Even when I took the time to research the passages/scripture and debate, there's not a chance the non believers will agree.
    Where'd you go, Jokey!? ...can't wait to see you "school" everyone!:

    Hey ghost, you lost him>...his child-like faith has been put to the ultimate test....he'll be back soon claiming victory here, sprinkled with an insult or two...you watch...:rryumy:

    rofl
    Last edited by ohein56; 02-23-2014 at 08:04 PM.
    As long as it is acceptable for a person to beLIEve that he knows how god wants everyone on Earth to live, we will continue to murder one another on account of our myths. ~ Sam Harris, 'The End Of Faith'
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    Re: Biblical Incongruities

    Quote Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
    There's no point. Even when I took the time to research the passages/scripture and debate, there's not a chance the non believers will agree.
    just 1 question.......WHERE/WHAT did you TAKE the TIME from!? and did/do you HAVE TO/WANT to give it BACK!? :crazy1: : :spin2:
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    Re: Biblical Incongruities

    Quote Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
    There's no point. Even when I took the time to research the passages/scripture and debate, there's not a chance the non believers will agree.
    In the last couple of days verses have been posted that prove what was said. That god/Jesus promised ALL believers prayers would be answered. You are ignoring that.

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    Re: Biblical Incongruities

    Quote Originally Posted by tomInAustin View Post
    In the last couple of days verses have been posted that prove what was said. That god/Jesus promised ALL believers prayers would be answered. You are ignoring that.
    Just as a reminder...I grabbed this from evilbible.com...

    Jesus is quoted many times in the Bible saying that a believer can ask for anything through prayer and receive it. He even goes so far as to say that mountains and trees can be thrown into the sea simply by praying for it. This is clearly a lie, and can be proven to be a lie by any believer. Simply pray for me to be converted to Christianity right away. Or better yet ask God to move the mountains behind my house. He could make a lot of converts that way. If Im converted today, Ill post a public apology on my web site and devote my life to kissing Gods ass. If Im not converted it would only be fair for you to apologize and devote your life to kissing my butt.



    Here are the quotes from Jesus that proves that he lied:



    1) And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." (Matthew 21:21-22 NAS)



    2) Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Matthew 7:7-8 NAB)



    3) Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst. (Matthew 18:19-20 NAS)



    4) Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours. (Mark 11:24-25 NAB)



    5) And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Luke 11:9-13 NAB)



    6) And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it. (John 14:13-14 NAB)



    7) If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you. (John 15:7 NAB)



    8) It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit that will remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give you. (John 15:16 NAB)



    9) On that day you will not question me about anything. Amen, amen, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you. Until now you have not asked anything in my name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete. (John 16:23-24 NAB)



    A lot of Christians ignore what Jesus actually says in the Bible. They also tend to add things to the actual words to make them say something else. If you honestly and truthfully read these quotes, without adding to them, it is very easy to see that Jesus is not saying that God will think about your prayers. He says God will grant all your prayers. Clearly, God doesnt grant all prayers and this proves that Jesus was a habitual liar.
    As long as it is acceptable for a person to beLIEve that he knows how god wants everyone on Earth to live, we will continue to murder one another on account of our myths. ~ Sam Harris, 'The End Of Faith'
    ~~~~~
    Christianity demands the crucifixion of the intellect.
    ~ Susan Kierkegaard

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    Re: Biblical Incongruities

    Quote Originally Posted by ohein56 View Post
    Just as a reminder...I grabbed this from evilbible.com...
    A few of these are obviously talking about anyone, not just the 9 ring wraiths... i mean the 12 disciples.


    Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Matthew 7:7-8 NAB)


    Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours. (Mark 11:24-25 NAB)

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    Re: Biblical Incongruities

    I wanted to resurrect this old "We Walk By Faith, Not By Sight" necro-thread of mine from 2011, but I think that I can insert it's premise into this "Biblical Incongruities" thread.

    Getting back to the meat of this old thread I proposed back then that 2 Corinthians 5:7 is another false premise, IOW, more proof of incongruities and falsehoods in the bible.

    My position on this thread attacked the apostle Paul's thoughts when he stated, We walk by faith, not by sight. I will begin with the point I made back in 2011:

    "I would like to point out that this works only when the path is not rocky, or broken, or pitch black. Visualize yourself climbing up a mountain or walking a rock-strewn path up a hillside by faith alone.

    You must know where to put your next footfall, therefore you must depend on YOUR SIGHT, (also your keen observations) and YOUR EXPERIENCE. I propose that faith is a poor substitute for knowledge gained from observation and experimentation.

    These fundamentals are what give us our experiences. Our experiences are all that we can really KNOW in this life, for they are first-hand and intimate. For like the planet Earth, life is strewn with rocky paths and plenty of dark rooms.
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

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    Re: Biblical Incongruities

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    I wanted to resurrect this old "We Walk By Faith, Not By Sight" necro-thread of mine from 2011, but I think that I can insert it's premise into this "Biblical Incongruities" thread.

    Getting back to the meat of this old thread I proposed back then that 2 Corinthians 5:7 is another false premise, IOW, more proof of incongruities and falsehoods in the bible.

    My position on this thread attacked the apostle Paul's thoughts when he stated, We walk by faith, not by sight. I will begin with the point I made back in 2011:

    "I would like to point out that this works only when the path is not rocky, or broken, or pitch black. Visualize yourself climbing up a mountain or walking a rock-strewn path up a hillside by faith alone.

    You must know where to put your next footfall, therefore you must depend on YOUR SIGHT, (also your keen observations) and YOUR EXPERIENCE. I propose that faith is a poor substitute for knowledge gained from observation and experimentation.

    These fundamentals are what give us our experiences. Our experiences are all that we can really KNOW in this life, for they are first-hand and intimate. For like the planet Earth, life is strewn with rocky paths and plenty of dark rooms.
    OH yah i remember that 1 now dont know how it turned out!? but i would add that like any other learned action if repetitive in nature 1 can do it in their sleep so to speak!? also the word walk you are taking literally while it may only mean direction!? direction meaning just that, our mind gives us directions!? mind is a MULTIPLE ENTITY i am saying!? and i am supposing that faith is just trusting in whatever mind decisions we make!? is faith literally the ABILITY to trust completely!? and this a quality ONLY associated/attributed with god the creator!? in another sense we are debating the idea of faith as learned over time vs instantaneous knowledge!? :chicken: : :spin2:
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