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  1. #1
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    Bush, The Dark Knight

    I just watched this film tonight, awesome movie but a bit scary.

    What do you reckon:

    Batman = USA
    Joker = Terrorists
    People = Sheep

    Is Christopher Nolan a neo-con, or did the government just get a particularly big finger in this blockbusting piece of propaganda?

    There is heaps of stuff in there, but the cellphone surveilance stuff was particularly frightening in light of recent events, eg NSA wiretapping.
    http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/...147#pid4724147


    Finding the batman mythology a bit ambiguous and hard to understand. I was hoping that the batman would represent a Luciferian Destruction to the Order of things type of archetype. in batman begins, I dug the idea of using the oppressive power of fear against the very agents that keep us hostage through it. Through creating an unseen, anonymous, seemingly omnipresent deity of vengence.. according to some higher altruistic will.

    All these anon manifestos on youtube with the Vendetta mask, that movie being pretty direct about its silent revolution ideas, ties in well with the idea of a symbol for the oppressors to fear. major religions like christianity have been subverted, new manifestos of revolution are forged in comic books, movies, music and art. The role of art is to dynamically reflect society to itself by updating itself and coinciding to the ebb and flow of the times, and in such a way is much more spiritually relevant than antiquated texts.

    Soundless Dawn on youtube
    http://www.youtube.com/user/soundlessdawn

    creates some great video montages of intertwined art and culture that through their connections suggest some transcendent meaning, communicated to all in plain sight, but hidden and silent, through such mediums as big budget movies, whether intended by the evil movie industry or the artists, I find that a deeper meaning is inescapably infused into everything by a mechanism beyond our control.

    As this meme of very subtle symbolic subversion of the evils of the world, strengthens through box office success of the movies that carry it, the symbol of romanticised human potentials characetured as superheros empowers us all to take the power back. As an unseen transcendent entity the superhero, should be feared by those that maintain their power through keeping us in fear of achieving our own superhero potentials.

    I suppose these sorts of interpretations are heavily biased by the meaning we want them to convey. In general I see a silent revolution of personal empowerment through collectively held altruistic ideals.


    Seems like I'm not the only person that picked up on it, for example this article in the Wall Street Journal (note the reference to 300 as well, which I mentioned similar ideas in last year):
    What Bush and Batman Have in Common

    By ANDREW KLAVAN
    July 25, 2008; Page A15

    A cry for help goes out from a city beleaguered by violence and fear: A beam of light flashed into the night sky, the dark symbol of a bat projected onto the surface of the racing clouds . . .

    Oh, wait a minute. That's not a bat, actually. In fact, when you trace the outline with your finger, it looks kind of like . . . a "W."
    There seems to me no question that the Batman film "The Dark Knight," currently breaking every box office record in history, is at some level a paean of praise to the fortitude and moral courage that has been shown by George W. Bush in this time of terror and war. Like W, Batman is vilified and despised for confronting terrorists in the only terms they understand. Like W, Batman sometimes has to push the boundaries of civil rights to deal with an emergency, certain that he will re-establish those boundaries when the emergency is past.

    And like W, Batman understands that there is no moral equivalence between a free society -- in which people sometimes make the wrong choices -- and a criminal sect bent on destruction. The former must be cherished even in its moments of folly; the latter must be hounded to the gates of Hell.

    "The Dark Knight," then, is a conservative movie about the war on terror. And like another such film, last year's "300," "The Dark Knight" is making a fortune depicting the values and necessities that the Bush administration cannot seem to articulate for beans.
    Conversely, time after time, left-wing films about the war on terror -- films like "In The Valley of Elah," "Rendition" and "Redacted" -- which preach moral equivalence and advocate surrender, that disrespect the military and their mission, that seem unable to distinguish the difference between America and Islamo-fascism, have bombed more spectacularly than Operation Shock and Awe.
    Why is it then that left-wingers feel free to make their films direct and realistic, whereas Hollywood conservatives have to put on a mask in order to speak what they know to be the truth? Why is it, indeed, that the conservative values that power our defense -- values like morality, faith, self-sacrifice and the nobility of fighting for the right -- only appear in fantasy or comic-inspired films like "300," "Lord of the Rings," "Narnia," "Spiderman 3" and now "The Dark Knight"?

    The moment filmmakers take on the problem of Islamic terrorism in realistic films, suddenly those values vanish. The good guys become indistinguishable from the bad guys, and we end up denigrating the very heroes who defend us. Why should this be?
    The answers to these questions seem to me to be embedded in the story of "The Dark Knight" itself: Doing what's right is hard, and speaking the truth is dangerous. Many have been abhorred for it, some killed, one crucified.
    Leftists frequently complain that right-wing morality is simplistic. Morality is relative, they say; nuanced, complex. They're wrong, of course, even on their own terms.

    Left and right, all Americans know that freedom is better than slavery, that love is better than hate, kindness better than cruelty, tolerance better than bigotry. We don't always know how we know these things, and yet mysteriously we know them nonetheless.
    The true complexity arises when we must defend these values in a world that does not universally embrace them -- when we reach the place where we must be intolerant in order to defend tolerance, or unkind in order to defend kindness, or hateful in order to defend what we love.

    When heroes arise who take those difficult duties on themselves, it is tempting for the rest of us to turn our backs on them, to vilify them in order to protect our own appearance of righteousness. We prosecute and execrate the violent soldier or the cruel interrogator in order to parade ourselves as paragons of the peaceful values they preserve. As Gary Oldman's Commissioner Gordon says of the hated and hunted Batman, "He has to run away -- because we have to chase him."

    That's real moral complexity. And when our artistic community is ready to show that sometimes men must kill in order to preserve life; that sometimes they must violate their values in order to maintain those values; and that while movie stars may strut in the bright light of our adulation for pretending to be heroes, true heroes often must slink in the shadows, slump-shouldered and despised -- then and only then will we be able to pay President Bush his due and make good and true films about the war on terror.
    Perhaps that's when Hollywood conservatives will be able to take off their masks and speak plainly in the light of day.
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121694247343482821.html

    Artistic and mystical interpretations aside for a moment, I think it's important to consider the way these powerful tools are being used for blatant propaganda and conditioning, as one example watch the how the cellphone surveillance issue is dealt with in the movie, and think about recent wiretapping scandals in the US and its allies.

    The futurists of germany showed us how artistically sexy aggressive violent advancement can be. in the same way the stylised depiction of war in the movie 300 echoed the sentiments of an american public taking on a seemingly similar foe, hidden, ghostly and dark. Shown as faceless and without humanity, with pure malice as their motivation. Artists cannot escape their surrounding political environment. Not all are able to transcend the bullshit.

    300 had a very obvious Persian -> Modern day Iran connection. That movie was deeply disturbing watching it on mushrooms. Such an eery atmosphere, the fear of an overwhelmingly large army, an ominous presence still hidden from sight created an emotional release when 'our guys' brutally dispatched them, in some very artistically choreographed stab work, finished off by violently thrusting the spears upward to fling off sprays of blood, compositionally arranged parallel to each other mimicking fascist symbology.

    In those headspaces it is impossible to detatch from the obvious emotional puppeteering, at the same time it makes the technique so much more obvious. The values pushed such as 'our' superiority and sacrificing of the weak is disgusting to any compassionate human being. To push an attitude on individuals that they are all better than each other makes no sense.

    ... that was an unnecessary tangent. just agreeing that not all hidden meanings speak THE TRUTH.
    Although looking through the bs you can interpret some truth about the artists own beliefs. The very clever thing about Propaganda is.. a lie told a thousand times becomes truth. Once we believe the bullshit, we spread it of our own accord without any government directly telling us to, we're already puppeteered by their strings, unknowingly. Although in the case of 300 i think frank miller is friends with some high up well connected conservative types and it was an intentional effort at directing the American public into more of a pro-war stance. In effect saying Iranians are these shadowy figures that kill mercilessly and have very shady morals and decadent lifestyles in their orgy tents, they must be feared. The overwhelming obviousness of the scare tactic may have worked against it. .. but it's just Fantasy right? if the manipulation is subconscious, mission accomplished.

    Back to Batman. I might want to read the comic books, or see some of the older movies to bring back the memories. Really unsure of the message preached, such is the shadowy nature of.. the whole mythology. I can only go back to batman begins. The whole idea was about people with power using it altruistically instead of for evil, and how he with the power was able to eradicate the corrupting evils. "Why do we fall down master wayne? .. so we can pick ourselves back up" lotsa feel good self empowering stuff, You always identify with the main character, so his character development was an inspiration for mine.

    After reading that article, the murky picture does start to clear. That perhaps batman as a symbol is the very agent of occlusion and fear induction somehow oxymoronically twisted to mean freedom from evil, whilst .. actually being the maintainer of it. "The struggle, to free myself of restraints.. becomes my very shackles" - Meshuggah lyric.

    Freedom has a price, for us to be liberated, we must first be enslaved, the two go hand in hand. Suffering comes from Desire sorta thing. While we're at it.. Batman is the personification of Justice.. a mysterious concept that we believe can save us but only causes more suffering, when you think about it. Vengence begets vengence.

    The Joker is the antibody to the status quo, the order of things. A Destructive, Luciferian element, where batman is more like the architect of fear... the stalemate we keep our minds locked in. The Joker destroys these very structures and threatens the reign of the dark knight, in the realm of mind (all symbolic seeee) where perhaps a youthful playful, at the same time chaotic and unstructured influence can shape reality.

    i see this as a battle of archetypes, which is manifest in movies and indeed all reality. Everyone seems to think of these last times as quite turbulent whereas we had more of a solid idea of what we're doing before.

    Without jumping to the terrorism example, I think the joker is a necessary influence in both the structures of western politics and islamic fundamentalism. It is an inner battle and not simply reduced to us versus them as that article wants to suggest.

    Batman is the symbol of fear and justice to evil. It is the very agent that creates the evil by perpetuating fear (ala anakin skywalker, created his own destiny thru fear) The Joker wishes destruction on all these structures, and through an honest and direct confrontation of the fear, liberates us from it through humor.


    In the old testament god commands one of his deluded followers to kill their firstborn. This creates a conflict between, the super ego, the authority we automatically trust, and our personal feelings. Our personal 'knowing' of right and wrong from a direct empathy that goes beyond some arbitrary rules.

    There is quite the plethora of self contradicting 'rules' that if they're to illustrate anything it is that we must be personally responsible for the management of good/evil through our own morals and not rely on a big brother figure.

    God forbids adam and eve from eating from the tree of knowledge under the punishment of death. As it turns out, this false god (demiurge) is exposed as a liar as eating of this fruit does not kill them, and like the serpent said, their eyes had opened.

    This is a very clear cut invitation to partake in the mystery of the unknown.. so that we may know. For those fearing gods mandate there is the contentment to follow the rules, with a belief that this omnipresent god must know. The truest knowledge is knowing you know sweet all. Orobourous, the end of knowledge is the beginning.

    Anyway, the wiretapping morality question, with batman as our hope in authority: order through fear, and Morgan Freeman as our humanistic concern for human rights, references Americas moral dillema about personal freedoms / versus safety. The joker card, of an unknown un-understandable 'evil' beyond comprehension was the wool needed to pull over our eyes.

    The heroics of fear and tyranny is as oxymoronic as it gets. To claim that black is white, is the most direct confrontation to us that we're really seeing things the wrong way around. This movie.. like the very war on TERROR, through it's own contradictions is a catalyst for us as a collective, to let go of fear as a method of control, and maybe rely on compassion as a self regulating force again.

    "He who gives up liberty for saftey, deserves neither" - paraphrase
    -oldschool quote, these are age old issues.

    The War on Terror, as in literally wiping out anybody that has ever terrorised anybody, and then taking it a step further and terrorising potential terrorists (to give em some motivation to actually do it i guess) is .. like ing for virginity. Just like the war on drugs creates it's own black market, so too are most other Wars on anything a facade of being against something that actually gives one benefit.

    The Old Testament was self evident of Big Brother being full of shit, yet it is impossible for some to read between the lines. I'm thinking that this movie can also have a very distinct double meaning, by keeping the fearful in order, and at the same time liberating those who can see through the bullshit. To see how building up a hero will ultimately fall like a house of cards, when its' very foundation is its' own self limiting fearful bullshit.

    In the old testament god commands one of his deluded followers to kill their firstborn. This creates a conflict between, the super ego, the authority we automatically trust, and our personal feelings. Our personal 'knowing' of right and wrong from a direct empathy that goes beyond some arbitrary rules.

    'deluded followers'

    Yes, did the deluded follower do so as to follow through, God said no.

    A conumdrum.
    The internet is the last light of truth and hope...it is truly of the people, by the people and for the people. We must not let it be subverted for any purpose other than the truth. And that truth shall spread to every man woman and child across the globe. No longer will those in power carry the sole means to decide for us, yet we now shall have the power to decide to tune them out.

  2. #2
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    Re: Bush, The Dark Knight

    This belongs in the Conspiracy Zone.

  3. #3
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    Re: Bush, The Dark Knight

    Quote Originally Posted by Paladine View Post
    I just watched this film tonight, awesome movie but a bit scary.
    It was supposed to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paladine View Post
    Back to Batman. I might want to read the comic books, or see some of the older movies to bring back the memories.
    That might be a good idea. May I recommend his, and the Joker's debut in, I believe, Dectective Comics #1 ... not sure of the series title. Batman debuts and meets the Joker for the first time. The Batman debuted in the late thirtys and the actual comic is rare and valuable. However, it should be available for reading in a collection of comic literary works at your local library.


    Everyone is entitled to his/her interpretation of the Batman, his relationship with Bruce Wayne, the Joker and so on.

    I strongly recommend you simply read the comics at face value first and familiarize yourself with the basics of the character before you try to psycho-analyze it.

    Read the first one... some of the fortys, fifties, sixties... and so on. Some from each decade so you can see how he evolved. Work your way up to the Dark Knight series. You cannot truly appreciate "The Dark Knight" without first having read the earlier Batman

  4. #4
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    Re: Bush, The Dark Knight

    It's a movie, based on a comic book hero. It's an entertainig way to kill some time. No need to over think it.

  5. #5
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    Re: Bush, The Dark Knight

    you bastards have you even seen the movie? I know similar themes are in lots of films, but with this one and that other one last year, 300, I'm referring to quite overt, timely, topical references that go beyond the normal good guy/bad guy routine. People had similar reactions in the 300 thread that has been said here, but it turned out the guy is basically a frothing at the mouth neo-con with an agenda.

    I do find it weird how many people seem to balk at the idea though. I mean, I would think it would be weird if these powerful, big budget, sensational blockbuster movies were not being used as propaganda or conditioning tools. Why is it people who see propaganda etc so readily in newspapers, T.V. etc, do not recognize it in movies?

    it is far from being so simple! The phone networks do not belong to cops and government! Even if they did, the government and cops belong to us! The roads are ours, built and paid for by our taxes! We are supposed to live in a democracy, the roads are not "theirs" the rules are not "theirs" they are ours! The cops and members of government are not a ruling class, they are part of our society!

    Masquerade Infernale, The Hanged Man, and The Loom of Fate








    O, what a tangled web we weave,
    When first we practice to deceive!

    There is an undeniably strange and phenomenal energy surrounding the death of heath ledger.. He's portrayed as the master of chaos and a Jester in Batman. The Dark Carnival's champion in Casanova, inquisitor of the Luciferian pope in the Order.. and most recently, he can be seen wearing a tattoo of the eye of illumination on his forehead as he hangs from yet another noose in The Imaginarium of Doctor Parnassus.

    He Resonates with galactic center.. As he bears self designed tattoos which geometrically represent the time
    of the crossing.. as well as the opposite polarity ~ the twin sign or Gemini.. as we see the Yin Yang sign on
    his arm in the film Two Hands.. and his friendship with the Olsen Twins.. one of which was called in for questioning
    in relation to his death.

    Heath swaps the white mask for the black mask and vice verse in Casanova..
    Again welling up imagery of Stanley Kubrick's final jab in the side of the Illuminati in Eye's Wide Shut. The Mask may be used to shroud one's identity.. to become someone else.. or to become more than a man.. to become an Ego less idea.. One that veils your imperfection ~ an illusion of purification.

    The Serpent Hugs the Tree of knowledge during a ceremony in the ninth gate..
    this galactic crossing or the Mayan description of the serpent ropes all point to the ushering in of a new age as we approach the ecliptic.. The Dragon, feathered snake, or phoenix
    all being aesthetic symbols of this aeonic flux.

    The occult or hidden hand is dark in that it is mysterious to you..
    It is a vast chasm of knowledge withheld.. Given to you in slices..
    Incomplete pieces of an ever growing puzzle.. it enrages you as a
    quarantining and compartmentalization of your true potential should be in nobody's hands but your own..
    This idea.. this gnosis.. keeps you wanting.. searching the void for the legend that ties everything together
    which explains in the most precise and simplistic fashion.. the webbing of cosmic illumination.

    Ledger is forced to ask a hanging man just such a question as he is in the death throws of his final
    living moment.. A Lucid state or purgatory whence you can view the knowledge between existences. Ledger becomes a Sin Eater..
    A Pardoner of evil.. Even beyond the power and reach of the Catholic church.. he gains the ability to purify even the most depraved human's soul.. in effect becoming a god himself.
    The transfer of this immovable power takes place over a curious star shaped geometry.. where a man becomes an immortal.. Within a circle of power representative of the structure and orientation of the universe these abilities may be learned.

    Inspiration:

    Jake's Site: http://rundonotwalk.blogspot.com/

    AferrisMoon:
    http://aferrismoon.blogspot.com/

    Dedroidify:
    http://dedroidify.blogspot.com/

    Dedicated to the memory of Kent Daniel Bentkowski ~ You will be missed:

    http://www.kentroversytapes.net/
    Last edited by Paladine; 08-08-2008 at 07:34 AM.
    The internet is the last light of truth and hope...it is truly of the people, by the people and for the people. We must not let it be subverted for any purpose other than the truth. And that truth shall spread to every man woman and child across the globe. No longer will those in power carry the sole means to decide for us, yet we now shall have the power to decide to tune them out.

  6. #6

    Re: Bush, The Dark Knight

    Quote Originally Posted by Paladine View Post
    you bastards have you even seen the movie? I know similar themes are in lots of films, but with this one and that other one last year, 300, I'm referring to quite overt, timely, topical references that go beyond the normal good guy/bad guy routine. People had similar reactions in the 300 thread that has been said here, but it turned out the guy is basically a frothing at the mouth neo-con with an agenda.

    I do find it weird how many people seem to balk at the idea though. I mean, I would think it would be weird if these powerful, big budget, sensational blockbuster movies were not being used as propaganda or conditioning tools. Why is it people who see propaganda etc so readily in newspapers, T.V. etc, do not recognize it in movies?

    it is far from being so simple! The phone networks do not belong to cops and government! Even if they did, the government and cops belong to us! The roads are ours, built and paid for by our taxes! We are supposed to live in a democracy, the roads are not "theirs" the rules are not "theirs" they are ours! The cops and members of government are not a ruling class, they are part of our society!
    But it is all so simple. batman and the justice league fight crime and injustice. You know good versus evil and good always triumps. Leave it alone

  7. #7
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    Re: Bush, The Dark Knight

    There ya go! OldTImer nbeing the BOSSY FREAK that he is, telling you what to do, SHUT UP YOU OLD STUPID IDIOT

  8. #8

    Re: Bush, The Dark Knight

    Quote Originally Posted by galaxy View Post
    There ya go! OldTImer nbeing the BOSSY FREAK that he is, telling you what to do, SHUT UP YOU OLD STUPID IDIOT
    Why hello there Galaxy. It sure is nice to hear from you. Where have you been? Sure hope all is well with the family. You should stop by more often as I really enjoy hearing from you. Have a nice day.:sun_smiley:

  9. #9
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    Re: Bush, The Dark Knight

    Quote Originally Posted by Paladine View Post
    you bastards have you even seen the movie? I know similar themes are in lots of films, but with this one and that other one last year, 300, I'm referring to quite overt, timely, topical references that go beyond the normal good guy/bad guy routine. People had similar reactions in the 300 thread that has been said here, but it turned out the guy is basically a frothing at the mouth neo-con with an agenda.

    I do find it weird how many people seem to balk at the idea though. I mean, I would think it would be weird if these powerful, big budget, sensational blockbuster movies were not being used as propaganda or conditioning tools. Why is it people who see propaganda etc so readily in newspapers, T.V. etc, do not recognize it in movies?

    it is far from being so simple! The phone networks do not belong to cops and government! Even if they did, the government and cops belong to us! The roads are ours, built and paid for by our taxes! We are supposed to live in a democracy, the roads are not "theirs" the rules are not "theirs" they are ours! The cops and members of government are not a ruling class, they are part of our society!
    Who the are you??? By your own admission you haven't even read any of the Batman series and are unfamiliar with the character. Therefore you know nothing of Bob Kane's creation. All you are doing is parrotting what others have written.
    Why not do something original... like learn about the character first... THEN go into your psycho-babble.

  10. #10

    Re: Bush, The Dark Knight

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulM View Post
    Who the are you??? By your own admission you haven't even read any of the Batman series and are unfamiliar with the character. Therefore you know nothing of Bob Kane's creation. All you are doing is parrotting what others have written.
    Why not do something original... like learn about the character first... THEN go into your psycho-babble.
    You know Paul, one thing keeps popping into my mind.

    When I do good, nobody ever remembers.

    When I do bad, nobody ever forgets.

  11. #11
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    Re: Bush, The Dark Knight

    Quote Originally Posted by Old Timer View Post
    You know Paul, one thing keeps popping into my mind.

    When I do good, nobody ever remembers.

    When I do bad, nobody ever forgets.
    You have a good point...

  12. #12
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    Re: Bush, The Dark Knight

    Quote Originally Posted by Paladine View Post
    you bastards have you even seen the movie? I know similar themes are in lots of films, but with this one and that other one last year, 300, I'm referring to quite overt, timely, topical references that go beyond the normal good guy/bad guy routine. People had similar reactions in the 300 thread that has been said here, but it turned out the guy is basically a frothing at the mouth neo-con with an agenda.

    I do find it weird how many people seem to balk at the idea though. I mean, I would think it would be weird if these powerful, big budget, sensational blockbuster movies were not being used as propaganda or conditioning tools. Why is it people who see propaganda etc so readily in newspapers, T.V. etc, do not recognize it in movies?

    it is far from being so simple! The phone networks do not belong to cops and government! Even if they did, the government and cops belong to us! The roads are ours, built and paid for by our taxes! We are supposed to live in a democracy, the roads are not "theirs" the rules are not "theirs" they are ours! The cops and members of government are not a ruling class, they are part of our society!
    Yea, seen them both several times. One is based on a true event that happened hundreds of years ago and they decided to make a movie to tell the story of how it might of taken place. The other is based on a comic book. And while batman has evolved into a very complicated character that could be psyco-analyized in the manner of how certain events in his life can shape his being, and how he battles both the good and bad within himself, it has nothing to do with 9-11.

  13. #13

    Re: Bush, The Dark Knight

    Quote Originally Posted by carolinahound View Post
    Yea, seen them both several times. One is based on a true event that happened hundreds of years ago and they decided to make a movie to tell the story of how it might of taken place. The other is based on a comic book. And while batman has evolved into a very complicated character that could be psyco-analyized in the manner of how certain events in his life can shape his being, and how he battles both the good and bad within himself, it has nothing to do with 9-11.
    I thought that Paladine's post were supposed to be interesting. What a let down.

  14. #14
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    Re: Bush, The Dark Knight

    An interview:

    Bob Kane, The Man Behind Batman

    http://www.npr.org/templates/player/...501&m=92450845

  15. #15
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    Re: Bush, The Dark Knight

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulM View Post
    It was supposed to be.



    That might be a good idea. May I recommend his, and the Joker's debut in, I believe, Dectective Comics #1 ... not sure of the series title. Batman debuts and meets the Joker for the first time. The Batman debuted in the late thirtys and the actual comic is rare and valuable. However, it should be available for reading in a collection of comic literary works at your local library.


    Everyone is entitled to his/her interpretation of the Batman, his relationship with Bruce Wayne, the Joker and so on.

    I strongly recommend you simply read the comics at face value first and familiarize yourself with the basics of the character before you try to psycho-analyze it.

    Read the first one... some of the fortys, fifties, sixties... and so on. Some from each decade so you can see how he evolved. Work your way up to the Dark Knight series. You cannot truly appreciate "The Dark Knight" without first having read the earlier Batman
    My bad... Batman debut was Detective Comics #27



    The Joker debuted in Batman comics #1

    Last edited by PaulM; 08-09-2008 at 08:12 AM.

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