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  1. #161
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    Re: What is the fallacy of the Garden of Eden?

    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman View Post
    It's not a matter of "settling" as you are trying to suggest...as if I've just made up my mind and that's that and there will be no persuading me otherwise...

    Here is what I've been writing in a nutshell:

    1. I am claiming fallacy concerning the idea of there ever being perfection on earth in the form of any creature or thing and basing this on the philosophical concepts of perfection vs imperfection in the Garden of Eden....

    2. I am making the claim that God did not tell the truth within the Genesis story when he said that Adam and Eve would die on the day they ate the fruit. (they lived many more years)

    3. I am making claims that the serpent (no where mentioned as the devil) told the truth in that they did not die as God said they would and indeed gained the understanding of good and evil as promised.



    Please refute anything I've stated here or anything else I've said in this thread that has not been properly included here.

    I'm open to any information you have pertaining to the particular words used to imply the results that would follow partaking of the fruit.
    Perhaps there was a translational error...? Show me.
    Maybe you can show by use of example where the same words and language were used to convey an "age" or a "lifetime" or a "fall from grace" rather than "in the day thou eatest it"
    Perhaps I'm not taking into account the spirit of the text?
    Maybe I'm only reading a parable?


    My position is the claim of fallacy.

    Yours is the position of truth.

    I have given plenty of reasons to not take the story as true...

    Where are your arguments and reasons that one should actually believe the story as written, in light of or in spite of my "evidences" against it?

    Any takers on this one?

  2. #162
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    Re: What is the fallacy of the Garden of Eden?

    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman View Post
    Any takers on this one?
    Humans are very intuitive. Without knowing the full story, they've written myths about paradise. It all fits, a perfect garden where all creatures enjoyed eternal life with God. Then, the mythical, BUT REAL, beast (snake) tempts God's creatures.

    I believe the symbolism of the Adam and Eve story is correct. What's missing is historical accuracy, and some other things about the snake. First, lets assume the garden of paradise is the world 65 million years ago with dinosaurs and a whole host of other magnificent creatures in a warm tropical climate. Second, let's assume the snake is Satan, God's fallen angel. Instead of one garden, there is the entire world (see archeological evidence for dinosaurs on all continents of the world). Then, look at scientific evidence of the sudden extinction of dinosaurs and about 75% of all species. Based on the evidence, a strong argument can be made for the dinosaur era being paradise. Satan (the snake) tempted all of God's creatures away from Him.

    The Adam and Eve story favors humans over all other species. However, why would God favor only humans? Oh, I know, the Bible tells me so. But what if that is incorrect. What if God also liked dinosaurs and other infrahuman species? Why would God create all of those magnificent creatures and then let them die? Is that to glorify humans? Based on history, I see no justification for the moral worth of humans. That is the argument that must be made -- God sacrificed all other species for humans? Can anyone make that argument?
    Last edited by Cnance; 02-18-2014 at 10:06 PM.

  3. #163
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    Re: What is the fallacy of the Garden of Eden?

    I guess I don't understand your version of God much, cnance.

    You seem to continually opine that God is weak, fallible, powerless, or otherwise unable to rule his creation as he sees fit....

    What am I missing?

  4. #164
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    Re: What is the fallacy of the Garden of Eden?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Humans are very intuitive. Without knowing the full story, they've written myths about paradise. It all fits, a perfect garden where all creatures enjoyed eternal life with God. Then, the mythical, BUT REAL, beast (snake) tempts God's creatures.

    I believe the symbolism of the Adam and Eve story is correct. What's missing is historical accuracy, and some other things about the snake. First, lets assume the garden of paradise is the world 65 million years ago with dinosaurs and a whole host of other magnificent creatures in a warm tropical climate. Second, let's assume the snake is Satan, God's fallen angel. Instead of one garden, there is the entire world (see archeological evidence for dinosaurs on all continents of the world). Then, look at scientific evidence of the sudden extinction of dinosaurs and about 75% of all species. Based on the evidence, a strong argument can be made for the dinosaur era being paradise. Satan (the snake) tempted all of God's creatures away from Him.

    The Adam and Eve story favors humans over all other species. However, why would God favor only humans? Oh, I know, the Bible tells me so. But what if that is incorrect. What if God also liked dinosaurs and other infrahuman species? Why would God create all of those magnificent creatures and then let them die? Is that to glorify humans? Based on history, I see no justification for the moral worth of humans. That is the argument that must be made -- God sacrificed all other species for humans? Can anyone make that argument?


    Since there was about 65 million years between old t rex and people I don't really see where you are going with this.

    And let me ask you. If god loved Dino so much how could he allow this?


  5. #165
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    Re: What is the fallacy of the Garden of Eden?

    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman View Post
    I guess I don't understand your version of God much, cnance.

    You seem to continually opine that God is weak, fallible, powerless, or otherwise unable to rule his creation as he sees fit....

    What am I missing?
    Some see God with the power of a Greek god, I don't think that's correct. He rules his creation based on their willingness to love Him and obey His will. This is where freewill becomes important. I don't think there is dissension in heaven. Angels don't debate with God, challenge Him, or otherwise go against His will. When Satan became independent or violated God's will, things became turbulent. God had no choice, He had to imprison him in the universe. I believe that is the key to being with God, you must accept Him without question or reservation. If, for some reason, you think you are more important than God, which is the case for Satan, you cannot be in his presence. What would you have to offer, probably nothing. My favorite expression is "God is holy and we are not." Some pastors don't like to hear that. However, it's true, only God is holy. God's angels or other creatures may be holy, but that is given to them by God.

    When God decided to intervene in human affairs (Bible) he demanded obedience. I don't believe that ever happened, and is not likely to happen. I have a dream about that. I don't like the controversy about my dreams, but because it's relevant I'll mention it. My dream was about J E Ws in OT times. A voice said, "they didn't obey my commandments, not one single commandment!" So, that's what its all about -- obedience to God's will. Humans are not wired to be obedient, they seem to favor individuality, their way of doing it, or refusing to do it. It is interesting, throughout the OT God's chosen people are always trying to make deals with God, or amend his commandments. That's the way it is with humans.

    If you were in God's presence you would see his glory and holiness, not lightening bolts firing this way and that. Once you accept God, you become 100% obedient to his will. You know, of course, most would not agree to such conditions.

    As for dinosaurs during paradise, I believe they enjoyed God's presence. Then, when Satan entered paradise, God had the same old problem He had in heaven. He had imprisoned Satan in the universe, so I think God had no other alternative but to leave earth to Satan. I know, well, why did God create paradise in the universe? If I ever have an answer to that question I'll post it. My guess is it was God's last attempt to reconcile things with Satan. When Satan refused to accept God's presence on earth, God departed. That may make God look weak, but He has a plan, one that he won't share with us. As for Satan, God has more interest. Assuming Satan was with God in heaven for several trillion years, there must have be a strong relationship.

    When paradise fell with Satan's interruption, God departed earth. He returned when Humans began to dominant all other species. He tried to work things out with his chosen people, even coming into the world as Jesus Christ. In the end, it all depends on humans willingness to accept God, but only on His terms.

    I might add, comments in the Bible about God being slow to anger reflect his character. He's very tolerant, but unwilling to bend his will, and if tested to often He does anger. However, in the case of humans since Bible times, he has assumed a policy of nonintervention.

    That is, of course, based on my personal beliefs about God. Don't want to get into a "why do you know this or that kind of debate." For the most part my ideas don't conform to Christian theology, they do however lean toward Judaism.
    Last edited by Cnance; 02-19-2014 at 05:43 PM.

  6. #166
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    Re: What is the fallacy of the Garden of Eden?

    Not really any need for a dream to tell you what the bible already says on the matter of obedience....


    All this on the premise that the bible stands:

    As I stated in another post pertaining to the founding fathers of Israel, the name literally means "contends with God" so is it any wonder that they did just that?

    I'm sure any other nation or peoples would have acted similarly, but all the same, there we have it....

    Also, God is not slow to anger, nor does he take it easy...

  7. #167
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    Re: What is the fallacy of the Garden of Eden?

    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman View Post
    Not really any need for a dream to tell you what the bible already says on the matter of obedience....


    All this on the premise that the bible stands:

    As I stated in another post pertaining to the founding fathers of Israel, the name literally means "contends with God" so is it any wonder that they did just that?

    I'm sure any other nation or peoples would have acted similarly, but all the same, there we have it....

    Also, God is not slow to anger, nor does he take it easy...
    We agree about a lot, but what do you mean by, "Also, God is not slow to anger, nor does he take it easy..." ?

  8. #168
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    Re: What is the fallacy of the Garden of Eden?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    We agree about a lot, but what do you mean by, "Also, God is not slow to anger, nor does he take it easy..." ?


    I mean that in the old and new testaments God does not wait, nor does he go easy on humans when they anger him.

    He is not slow to anger. He is quick. He does not take it easy. He is severe in his punishments.

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