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  1. #1
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    Limits of science

    anyone care to dicuss the limits of the scientific method?

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    Re: Limits of science

    Certainly, a great topic idea. Unfortunately I've got to go to uni and practice them, so I'll get involved tomorrow.

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    Re: Limits of science

    Quote Originally Posted by kazza
    Certainly, a great topic idea. Unfortunately I've got to go to uni and practice them, so I'll get involved tomorrow.
    Ok, i was thinking this because of the differences in how its agreed that something is perceived to be true based on the subject, obviously there are differences in the guidelines between them(historical proof is different from scientific) and how succeptible they are to need to be changed in order to accomodate new and possibly conflicting evidence, the atom being a prime example since the discoveries of the electron, proton and neutron changed the way the atom was thought to be

    I come mainly from a mathematical perspective which for people who are unaware is rather annoying because you have to make a logical argument so strong that you dont require evidence at all(but you can use it just to check)
    which has the pro that its more reliable than scientific evidence(theorems are always true) but has the con that it might literally be impossible to find or proven false after a long long time(conjectures which if proven false could cause any other thing made from it to crumble like a cookie)

    um ill use a passage from the simon singhs book "fermats last theorem" to explain this:(had to change a few things to fit the pic im using)

    Mutilated chessboard



    "We have a chessboard with the two opposing corners removed, si that there are only 62 squares remaining. Now we take 31 dominoes shaped such that each domino covers exactly 2 squares. The question is: is it possible to arrange the 31 dominoes so that they cover the 62 squares?

    There are 2 approaches to the problem:
    1)scientific aproach
    the scientist would try to solve the problem by experimenting, and after trying out a few dozen of arrangement would discover that they all fail. Eventually the scientist beleives that there is enough evidence to show that the whole board cannot be covered. However, the scientist can never be sure that this is truly the case since there might be an arrangement which hasnt been tried that might do the trick. there are millions of combinations and its only possible to explore a small fraction of it, the scientist will have to live with the prospect that one day the theory might be overturned

    2)Mathematical approach
    The mathematician tries to answer the question by making a logical argument which will remain unchallenged forever. One such argument is the following:

    -the corners which were removed were both black therefore there are now only 30 black squares and 32 white ones

    -each domino covers 2 neighbouring squares and neighbouring squares are always different colours(ie one black and one white)

    -therefore no matter how they are arranged, the first 30 dominoes must cover one white square and one black one

    -consequently this will always leave one domino which will have to cover 2 white squares

    -but remember all dominoes cover 2 neighbourign squares which are opposite in colour. However the remaining domino must cover 2 of the same colour and so they cannot both be covered by the remaining domino.Therefore covering the board is impossible...."


    I like it how if you are told an equation to use you can always go and check it yourself(which i find unbeleivably fun) with nothing more than a pen and paper, since they are true for everything then you alone can find out the truth(unless you make a mistake which is a bugger)


    my other main wonder is on how convincing some other proofs are relative to others(so for example how you could justify doing things like building huge machines to try to find theoretical particles predicted by a model or sending people safely into space)

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    Re: Limits of science

    Well, Godel pretty much said it all in his Incompleteness Theorem:
    http://www.miskatonic.org/godel.html
    Scientists animated by the purpose of proving that Nature is purposeless constitute an interesting subject for study. - Alfred N. Whitehead

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    Re: Limits of science

    that is a great read!?i like this part best!?"rational thought can never penetrate to the final ultimate truth"!?hehe!!....just askn....
    i do not endorse/recommend any advertising on scam.com associated with my name /posts or otherwise. thank you

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    Re: Limits of science

    Quote Originally Posted by lexx
    that is a great read!?i like this part best!?"rational thought can never penetrate to the final ultimate truth"!?hehe!!....just askn....
    Reminds me of the time I donated my body to science.
    The guys at the lab seemed pretty spooked last time.

    Science fears what it cant explain.
    The internet is the last light of truth and hope...it is truly of the people, by the people and for the people. We must not let it be subverted for any purpose other than the truth. And that truth shall spread to every man woman and child across the globe. No longer will those in power carry the sole means to decide for us, yet we now shall have the power to decide to tune them out.

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    Re: Limits of science

    It is not so much rational thought that blinds them but their dogma

    as their dogma has become their 'rational thought'

    Science constantly revises it's own position when evidence and observations forces it to and then will replace it with their stamp of 'truth' aka more dogma

    But their rational thought is static as nothing new can pass through the matrix to find truth.

    In short, it is religious dogma and propaganda, it is not real science as real science is not limited by todays dogma.
    The internet is the last light of truth and hope...it is truly of the people, by the people and for the people. We must not let it be subverted for any purpose other than the truth. And that truth shall spread to every man woman and child across the globe. No longer will those in power carry the sole means to decide for us, yet we now shall have the power to decide to tune them out.

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    Re: Limits of science

    Quote Originally Posted by Paladine
    It is not so much rational thought that blinds them but their dogma

    as their dogma has become their 'rational thought'

    Science constantly revises it's own position when evidence and observations forces it to and then will replace it with their stamp of 'truth' aka more dogma

    But their rational thought is static as nothing new can pass through the matrix to find truth.

    In short, it is religious dogma and propaganda, it is not real science as real science is not limited by todays dogma.
    ill argue that, can you separate the dogma of the scientific method for me?

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    Re: Limits of science

    Ladies and gentlemen, for your amusement, straight from your ignore lists, I present to you Paladine, with another batch of nonsensical loony-babble that defies reason and human comprehension! In this thread for a limited time only!

  10. #10
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    Re: Limits of science

    He'll be here through the weekend, try the veal!

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    Re: Limits of science

    Quote Originally Posted by Paladine
    It is not so much rational thought that blinds them but their dogma

    as their dogma has become their 'rational thought'

    Science constantly revises it's own position when evidence and observations forces it to and then will replace it with their stamp of 'truth' aka more dogma

    But their rational thought is static as nothing new can pass through the matrix to find truth.

    In short, it is religious dogma and propaganda, it is not real science as real science is not limited by todays dogma.
    No, Science has to by its own definition, follow the correct evidence. Science is an explanation thru natural means.

    You just know very little about it.

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    Re: Limits of science

    its sickening when people try to put down scientists as though they are lazy stuborn liars, the whole saying that once they think of something it immediatly becomes truth and isnt questioned is simply a way to make the scientific method look bad(specially since it doesnt work that way[or more accurate it literally couldnt work if it was that way) scientists for the most part try very hard to make a contribution to science using logic, evidence and sheer genius

    One of the most beautiful things about science is that all knowledge and theories come together beautifully regardless of when or where they were discovered, Its like a spiders web that relies other points in order to support itself

    also the sheer amounts of it is so huge that you can easily spend a lifetime studying something very specific and insignificant. An example would be my chemistry teacher who spend 15 years studying the properties of a single molecule:methyl orange or as we call it dimethylaminoazobenzenesulfonic acid.

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    Re: Limits of science

    Your posts are all the proof I need to see the fragil lmited world of dogma and ego.

    A clear reflection.

    Why start a treat if you can not look at others points of view?
    Just more proof of the dogmatic nazi science limits .

    Consider this topic CLOSED to science.
    And opened to DOGMA.
    Last edited by Paladine; 08-29-2007 at 07:15 AM.
    The internet is the last light of truth and hope...it is truly of the people, by the people and for the people. We must not let it be subverted for any purpose other than the truth. And that truth shall spread to every man woman and child across the globe. No longer will those in power carry the sole means to decide for us, yet we now shall have the power to decide to tune them out.

  14. #14
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    Re: Limits of science

    Quote Originally Posted by Paladine
    Your posts are all the proof I need to see the fragil lmited world of dogma and ego.

    A clear reflection.

    Why start a treat if you can not look at others points of view?
    Just more proof of the dogmatic nazi science limits .

    Consider this topic CLOSED to science.
    And opened to DOGMA.
    lol you got me there, im closed minded to a lack of logic but thats probly cause i do math

  15. #15
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    Re: Limits of science

    We must cast overboard everything except the berest essentials , throwing away every preconceived idea, every habbit of thought , even those conceptions which have always seemed simple and truth, plain and apparent facts.


    Sometimes there is nothing so utterly deceiving as a plain and apparent fact !

    This is becaurse one is apt to forget that life is all change and movement, and that which is a fact one moment may not be so the next.


    But what of the final ultimate truth.

    Can science uncover it ?

    The Unprejudiced eye is a much more difficult thing to cultivate than we may imagin. In fact, to most of us it is an impossibility. For generations, indeed for centuries, we have been bought in certain grooves of thought, certain traditions and habits, until our brains become wedged into a confined rut and are unable to look at things from a new angle.

    When, however, after finishing our survey of the present position, we see around us the result of thinking in these grooves, and realize to what a state of unhappiness, chaos and muddle this has bought us, we may,in sheer desperation, make the effort needed to jerk our brains out of their ruts and guard them against ever slipping back again.

    Truth can only be understood by one in a state of attention.
    Therefor truth is not available to those in a slack condition of mind - they could not take it in. Truth is only to be found 'at the bottom of a well' ; it must be struggled for and sought after and come upon through earnest effort, through the stimulation brought about by suffering or striving, whereby the mind is prepared to recognize it.

    That is why truth appears always to be hidden, veiled and guarded.

    Let us, then, try to look with new eyes at the struggling mass of inconsistencies which we are in the habit of calling civilization.

    Man has stiven always for happiness, and he has sought to attain it mostly in one of three ways- comport, entertainment and religion. But he has sought these things only in their outward form. Comfort for the body has been the first aim, while a comfortable state of mind has been the last thing considered, until the lack of it has reduced the victim to despair. Cleanliness has also been studied outwardly, but seldom in its inward form - we do not understand how to keep our minds wholly free from rubbish and poisoning material. Religion likewise has come to be mostly external observance, while as for entertainment it is poured in from outside, the mind being required to make no efort to obtain it.

    All the same, we are told that Mind over Matter constitutes our real power! Therein is one of the inconsistencies! Let us find more!

    In some countries the State supports the Church which tells us, 'thou shall not kill', but is not averse to sending us to war in order to slaughter our possibly blameless fellow men. For this we are called heroes. Yet if we kill someone for a reason which seems good enough for us we are no longer heroes, and we are jailed or killed.

    Many of us are asked to believe in Church teachings and the Bible, both of them containing a mass of contradictions which no one attempts to explain. For example, Christ asked His disciples to carry on the work as He had done, saying:'He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do.'
    St John xiv,12 and see Acts ii,17.

    These words referred to healing, prophesying and clairaudience, which, with the 'gift of tongues' (power to be understood by all nationalities), the power to work miracles, to interpret dreams and symbols, and to have wisdom, which were gifts of the god force. yet the State, which supports the Church's teachings, has imprisoned people for prophesying, and the clergy, who should be cultivating these gifts, leave them mostly in the hands of those they consider ignorant and superstitious.

    Calling ourselves civilized, we produce a race which cannot compare with many of the most savage tribes in health and physique. Look around at the members of an average crowd of today and compare them to the Greek ideal, or the early Egyptian or Assyrian bodies. Through un biased eyes we shall see that we are most misshapen travesties of what human beings should be; we cannot deny the prevalence today of imperfect bodies, unlovely vacant faces, ugly clothes and primitive conversation.

    Surely a modern crowd's appearance shrieks of the wrongness of our present living?
    We know the hospitals are full; so are the asylums- who dares to tell us the truth?

    Consider also that we are at present in imminent danger of a world war which could let loosw as much beastliness and cruelty as has ever existed in history.

    Even without war man is being murdered daily in various ways by the terrible robot which he has reared under the name Civilization. This Robot is running amok' it has mastered its creator for the time being and produced a clever system of keeping him in slavery. Much that is reallyenlightening in knowledge is gradually being eliminated from man's education, which is given to him in odd spoonfuls having no apparent relation to each other.

    Through no fault of his own he is under an economic system which causes him to spend all his days in terror and anxiety of being without means of support. If he works at all he must drudge the whole week through, while many of his comrades are refused employment, and he is obliged to pay for their support; there is 'over-production' and yet a difficulty in obtaining cheap food, even in some countries the danger of starvation; honesty and purity are preached to him on one side, while pornography and sensationalism are showered upon him from the other.

    Every effort is made to soak him through and through with an interest in sex - by means of cinemas. theatres, books, newspapers,internet, and through the type of food most cheaply obtained. He is never told the plain truth - that a preoccupation with sex is one of the greatest deterrents to brain development.

    He is surrounded with mind-destroying noise, rush and anxiety, until even the doctors are begining to say modern life will soon exterminate itself!

    As if this were not enough, he is furthermore at the mercy of the war-lord, who can send him out to murder and mangle his fellow-men even if he has the kindest of character; and escaping this last horror, he is daily slaughtered in his own streets by his brother road-hogs, while they, in turn pay millions into hospitals to put him together again !

    Life altogether seems to have been expressly planned to prevent him from creative thought; he has been, until quite recently, offered no problems to solve; his entertainment has been put before him in the form of predigested sensationalism - mental baby food.

    Weary and half drugged by this intensive treatment, man has largely ceased to recognize the heritage of his worderful mind. He no longer knows why he should think - or what there is to think about.

    Here then is a pessimistic picture of life as it is today!

    Ought we to be satisfied with this state of affairs?
    Is this indeed the wholepicture, or is there a brighter side?

    Let us not forget the claim that man is a marvellous creature, in spite of much that appears to the contrary. this claim seems not to be entirely without foundation. On every hand we find clues to strage and tremendous forces hidden within each of us, forces that when properly understood and developed could certainly lead us to unimaginable power and achievement. We glimpse these powers in such people as the imaginative genius, the child prodigy, the thought reader, the healer and clairvoyant. We hear of them on every side and their existence is too well known to be disuted.

    There are many great men alive today whose achievements stand out in sharp contrast to the average. It is that they are super-men, or that the rest of us are lagging far behind the point of development we should have reached ?
    If we were to lay any of them upon the dissecting-table we should certainly find nothing about them that differs in any degree from the average person.

    Where then, is the key to this wonderful power and omnipotence that apparently may be every man's birthright ?

    There is nothing to prove that we could not attain complet mastery over our lives, and reach ideal happiness, were we given this key, and had the will and the determination to use it.
    Had we this secret, instead of being, as we are, slaves to life, to our possession, our environment, ill-health, 'bad luck' and the rest, we could be master of all our circumstances, and welcome with content and understanding everything life brings to us.

    We are told that the secret lies in the use and understanding of certain knowledge through which is given an insight into the inner laws and forces of life, and the mannerin which to use them. This knowledge has always existed, but remains hidden for ever from all but the earnest seeker

    These are days which spirit of inquiry is perpaps more alive than at any other time in the history of humanity. They are days also in which the orientation of humanity towards spiritual realities and towards the higher values is more pronounced then ever before, in spite of many opinions of the pessimistically inclined to the contrary.

    The masses are becoming increasingly sensitive to the world of ideas and to the vision of truth. Hither to it has been the advanced men and women who have responeded, but today it is many. The spirit in man has always been divinely alive, but today men everywhere are inquiring with one voice; Which is the Way we should go? How far have we travelled towards the goal?
    The internet is the last light of truth and hope...it is truly of the people, by the people and for the people. We must not let it be subverted for any purpose other than the truth. And that truth shall spread to every man woman and child across the globe. No longer will those in power carry the sole means to decide for us, yet we now shall have the power to decide to tune them out.

  16. #16
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    Re: Limits of science

    There is wide spreed seeking going on everywhere now for happiness, freedom and power which we instinctively feel will be ours when we have gained the requisite knowledge.

    And the knowledge is to be found hidden, waiting, wonderful !

    Our first clue to this knowledge lies in the study of what is know as the Secret Wisdom.

    This teaching was always in charge (in the early days) of those who were well equipped both to govern and teach. But in time they neglected their deep knowledge in favor of the easier way-power through money,superstition and material pomp. This resulted in laziness and effete degeneration. Their only hope of retaining hold on the people was to plunge them into ignorance also.

    Therfore a systematic persecution of certain knowledge began, by edicts, inquisitions and massacrs. Finally their end was so thoroughly attained that from the highest to the lowest the wisdom had apparently faded out.

    Fortunately, however, there are now, and always have been, those who would give their whole lives to the guarding and hiding of a treasure so precious. So the knowledge was not really lost, but only concealed and safely guarded from desecration.

    Humanity is fast approaching the day when, through patient effort, it will have earned the right to this wisdom; in fact , some years ago it was given out in part for those earnest seekers in the vanguard of the progress to discover. Let us make all speed to gain for ourselves this rich heritage.

    Whether we approach the subject from a purely scientific viewpoint, from a ommon-sense one, or from a religious one, we will find science, logic or the root-form of any of the principal religions will lead us finally t identical truths. We will realize that if wea are able to accept these truths we will obtain a very satisfactory understading of the 'wokings' of 'nature' and of certain rules which will enable us to control ourselves and our circumstances in a manner hitherto impossible.

    We cannot gain such valuable knowledge without making worthy effort, but if we perserve there is no limit to the benefit we shall obtain.
    The earliest results achieved wil be ,firstly, a considerable improvement and control of health and looks, a growing capacity for happiness, an inability to worry or fear; a aining of popularity, and freedom of boredom.

    In time, when greater strides are made, there will be immunity from disease, conqueribg of fatique, and prolonging youth. There will be a growing capacity for helping others, a mastery of sorrow and pain, and the development of healing powers. A growing inner force will be felt, both for creating ideas and the carring of them out.

    Neither does the tale end here. Very advanced students, become unaffected by heat or cold, wounds and poisons. They are able to perform feats usually considered as miracles, and they appear to have access to regions of wisdom and felicity undremt of by us. People of this type move aout among us unsuspected. They do not advertise themselves; they are under a teaching which forbids them help unless asked, or to give out knowledge unless it is sought and will be properly understood.

    They are ready and waiting for the time when a growing number of people sense their secrets and will beg their help. When the general public have sufficiently advanced they will insist on being governed by persons of such attainments, and then indeed will begin the coming of the Golden Age.

    Meanwhile those who are anxious to forge ahead can prepare for the future.

    They are asked only to keep an open mind, for only an open mind is big enough to contain the secrets of the universe.


    Are human beings potentiial gods, as they have been told, or are they merely the least of worms?

    the world today is a seething mass of contradictions. Life does not become simpler with each new achievement, and the average man, kept busy with the urgent process of existing, has little time for thought.

    Yet there are moments when, looking out upon a world which appears drab, cruel, confused, and very ugly in many ways, man wonders....

    If there are great heights for him to attain why does he seem to know so little about them ?

    What has man been doing all these centuries ?

    Why do disease, difficulties and dangers appear to have increased the more civilization 'progresses'?

    There comes a time in the lives of many people when they earnestly desireto find an answer to these questions. they would know why they are here, what it is all about, and if they can learn to master circumstances instead of continually being a prey to them.

    They begin to make an individual effort to find out for themselves if there is really any rhyme or reason, any justice in life, anything to hope for or to work for.

    When a man arrives at this stage in his life it marks a very important crisis in his development. It is the moment at which he changes from puppet into an individual and joins the honoured company of the seekers.

    To his surprise he finds that the number of these seekers is increasing rapidly, and that, in fact, they are beginning to make their impact felt upon social consciousness.

    He soon sees the significance of this. True socialism becomes possible when people recognize themselves as indivdual units of power, capability and thought; then there will inevitably follow a corresponding important and cogenial position in life for each one of them.

    There is an unfailing demand for either the competent worker or for those able to weild constructive influence, and all can fill one of those needs. There is no other way to individual happiness.

    The general apathy and ignorance which has existed for so long has reduced living conditions to a chaos in which there has been undernourishment in the midst of plenty, barbaric wars and cruelties taking place under the wing of so called religion, and a system of education which results neither in mental power, physical fitness, good looks or happiness.

    Now, however, humanity is waking up in a wonderful manner to a recognition of its own failures. Everywhere there is a wide spread effort and intensive seeking going on in manifold directions. This effort is to be found not only among leaders and teachers of the people but among the people themselves.

    The public interest in health, diet, physical culture, spiritualism and hundreds of other movements shows the beginning of a powerful wave of progress which may sweep humanity upwards to the peak of a new Renaissanse of a kind the world has never known before.

    There are many today already caught in the throes of the birth of this coming Renaissance. They are tormented by the desire to know more of the inner meaning of life and the hidden issues to which they are so swiftly moving. One after another they take up the challenge of Life's Riddle, and join the evergrowing band of seekers.

    It is significant that this seeking should press into the realms of 'religion', 'psychic', 'spiritualistic' and 'occult' thought - other words, the inner world of causes.

    Man realizes that 'science', which has dealt so successfuly with physical phenomena, has not yet succeeded in giving humanity any measure of safety or happiness. So he is at last determined to try to find his happiness by getting in touch with the causes instead of effects, by seeking for the laws of truth, if any, which may lie behind the reactions of living things. He begins to sense the difference between knowledge and wisdom.

    Knowledge is the result of an accumulation of facts, and it tendency is, through specializing, to isolate subjects one from another.

    Wisdom is the deduction from these facts of useful laws, a process which can only take place by comparing the facts in one compartment with those in all the others, thus giving a vision of the whole.

    When a man becomes an individual seeker his first effort is to discover what he can of 'facts' connected with the fundamental truths of life. He wants proofs.

    There are many people ready to admit him into the world of inner research. He is faced with a long and complicated pilgrimage. Wonderful promoses are held out to him; he is assured of becoming a super-man, with health, happiness and power hither to undreamt-of and hard for him to comprehend.

    He asks himself if all this acn be true. If so, why is humanity still wallowing in such helplessness ? In bewilderment he hesitates on the threhold of philosophy, spiritualism, christian science or a dozen other cults or 'isms' !

    His inexperienced eyes are unable to detect the true from the false, and he is at the mercy of many people who seek to enlist him for their own pet cult, or who wish to make profit for themselves by trading upon his virgin curiosity and yearning. If he has a tendency to rmotionalism or a love of the sensational, he will be easy prey.

    How, then,, is he going to escape the many pitfalls and manage to keep upon the true path to an understanding and mastery of life ?

    Can we make an effort to seek Truth ? a concise and bird's eye view of the new universe and explore it ?
    The internet is the last light of truth and hope...it is truly of the people, by the people and for the people. We must not let it be subverted for any purpose other than the truth. And that truth shall spread to every man woman and child across the globe. No longer will those in power carry the sole means to decide for us, yet we now shall have the power to decide to tune them out.

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