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  1. #1
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    Ten Questions For Any Intelligent Christian To Think About

    Guess I could have put this in the religous forum, but it does not allow you to imbed YT footage on there (why is it you can do it here, and in the politics section), yet, not in the science section?





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    Re: Ten Questions For Any Intelligent Christian To Think About

    Is there an oxymoron in the thread's title? hmmm...
    "Believe nothing just because a so-called wise person said it. Believe nothing just because a belief is generally held. Believe nothing just because it is said in ancient books. Believe nothing just because it is said to be of divine origin. Believe nothing just because someone else believes it. Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be true."

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    Re: Ten Questions For Any Intelligent Christian To Think About

    Quote Originally Posted by Qi123
    Is there an oxymoron in the thread's title? hmmm...

    That's the thing, so many people use critical intelligence in their every day life, in their profession, etc, yet when it comes to this, somehow it eludes them.

    *Shrugs*
    Every Saint has a past, every sinner has a future..

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    Re: Ten Questions For Any Intelligent Christian To Think About

    Very interesting questions, and I have no answers to them. But I do have some questions of my own..

    Why don't the people that are trying to keep the people from starving move them out of that dessert to some place they might be able to grow some food? :confused:

    What kind of 2000+ year old evidence would one expect to find that Jesus healed the blind and raised the dead? Other than that which is in the written form?

    Why do people insist the bible was written by God? It was written, compiled, and translated several times over by man; who were writing what God had told them, but it was still written by humans and with all the likelihood of them making errors.

    Why can't people read between the lines like we were taught in school and not take things so literally?

    Just a few of the many questions that leave me puzzled in this life. :confused:

  5. 06-26-2007, 08:42 AM

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  6. #5
    coontie is offline Vashudeva; Ferryman - doing the work... User Rank
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    Re: Ten Questions For Any Intelligent Christian To Think About

    Quote Originally Posted by carolinahound
    Very interesting questions, and I have no answers to them. But I do have some questions of my own..

    Why don't the people that are trying to keep the people from starving move them out of that dessert to some place they might be able to grow some food? :confused:

    What kind of 2000+ year old evidence would one expect to find that Jesus healed the blind and raised the dead? Other than that which is in the written form?

    Why do people insist the bible was written by God? It was written, compiled, and translated several times over by man; who were writing what God had told them, but it was still written by humans and with all the likelihood of them making errors.

    Why can't people read between the lines like we were taught in school and not take things so literally?

    Just a few of the many questions that leave me puzzled in this life. :confused:


    These people were'nt writing down what "God told them". They were writing down their idea of what God is like, in their opinions. If we abided by their doctrine and example we would still be living in mud huts and squalor to this day.
    Most were from a group of a Male only community called the Essenes. They were a very fundamentalist and radical group of people. About as bad as Al Quieda theology is today, in its most strictest and fanatical sense.
    They considered women inferior as the Muslims do. They considered them mostly as available to do their menial work, cooking and so on. Women were NOT typically allowed in the comunity.
    They claimed to practice celibancy.Although Catholic priest of these times, as circumstances demonstrate, turn to quite warped and perverted practices when they deny their humaness, which includes sexuality. Usually, when ordinary sexuality is denied, supressed, it nevertheless will manifest, come out. WHen it does, it is in the form of perversions, debauchery and sexual abuse of mostly children.
    These people had oprhan males from nearby villages bought into their community. That is how they populated their sect. No female children, just males. They didn't practice sexual intercourse with women.
    These men often beat [flagellated theirself with whips] and wore aprons to conceal their private parts from their view. They wiped their behinds with their left hand which they then washed off in water. Same as many Muslims in the middle eastern countries practice today. But here, were speaking of pre-christians; those that would eventually practice Christianity in the name of Jesus Christ.
    In the Old Testament, other than what these individuals wrote into it to influence others to thei way of thinking, much of the material was taken from other ancient cultures such as Ur, Sumer Assyria and Babolynia.
    Evidence of this is borne out through the realting of this on clay tablets and cylinder seals of these ancient nations.
    Those of today who are, say, 20 years old or so and will survive, live until
    they are 70 - 80 years old will ever more have the truth revealed to them as to who and what human beings really are.

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    Re: Ten Questions For Any Intelligent Christian To Think About

    Well now, quite a nasty group of people weren't they?

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    Re: Ten Questions For Any Intelligent Christian To Think About

    i heard somewhere that if you take 1 thing and understand it completely you will have the key to understanding everything!?and yet it seems that most like to baffle with complexity/unending circles of seemingly new material always tryin to avoid understanding/make the understanding fit their own take or bias!?i'm not on high speed at this time so i cant read all the prosed questions.but i can see 1!?and it says,"why do bad things happen to good people"!?now to me,that would be all that is required to know in order to understand everything!?and yet there are 9 more just in case someone can answer that 1 to everyones satisfaction what ever that is!?but it is all misleading anyway!?it's all indirect speculation!?why not ask...."why do bad things happen to me"!?cause i think i'm a good person!?on a good day!?in a good place!?with other good persons!?hehe!!.....just askn...
    i do not endorse/recommend any advertising on scam.com associated with my name /posts or otherwise. thank you

  9. #8
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    Re: Ten Questions For Any Intelligent Christian To Think About

    Quote Originally Posted by carolinahound
    Well now, quite a nasty group of people weren't they?
    It is the Essenes who taught the Master Jesus to eat, to walk, to speak, to read, to write, to pray, and to unite himself with the One With No Name

    JC was also school by the magi- egyptain preisthood in Egypt.

    True Christianity has never been practiced, and no one has therefore had the chace to appreciate its value or it beauty.

    Until Christians are christians they have really no right to talk of christianity - it does not exist !
    Christs teachings exist, but christianity as he desired it is yet to come.

    They were writing down their idea of what God is like, in their opinions. If we abided by their doctrine and example we would still be living in mud huts and squalor to this day
    True christianity is the all
    it is everything in union and oneness.

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    Re: Ten Questions For Any Intelligent Christian To Think About

    I was actually a little disappointed in the video, in that instead of building a strong case for his assertions, using well thought out examples addressing specific Christian doctrines, he dismisses them out of hand as “strange rationalizations,” as though we should simply take his word for it without hearing any of the details.

    He asks good questions; he just doesn’t frame them all that well. However, it’s a good jumping off point for a discussion, so I’ll reply to a few of them below.

    Now, let me start by saying that Christians don’t know everything. There are some who think they do, that they’ve got God all wrapped up in a nice, neat little box, but they don’t.

    And nowhere in the Bible does it say “the purpose of life is to get a bead on God.”

    Yet, this is how many Christians look at it. They spend so much time trying to figure God out that at the end of the day they’ve left little to no room for faith. They are, in fact, whether they realize it or not, attempting to minimize the need for faith.

    And faith is the whole point. Everything else flows from it. Faith, in fact, is likely the biggest rationalization the narrator is referring to, although he never says so, so we’re left to guess. If he is, at least in part, referring to faith, his conception of its purpose and importance have been distorted by an image of Christianity shaped by culture, not by the message of Christ.

    That said, it’s going to look a lot like I’m trying to get a bead on God in the following posts, but I’m truly not. What I’ve written below are a few of my own personal beliefs and opinions, conclusions I’ve come to after careful thought, prayer and study of scripture. Take them or leave them. I’m not saying that if another Christian doesn’t agree with me, he/she is wrong and I’m right and they’re going to Hell.

    In no way, shape, or form, does my relationship with Christ (or anyone else’s, for that matter) hinge on beliefs regarding these specific aspects of Christianity.

    Faith in Christ is the point. Period. Add anything to that and you’re missing it. This can’t be stressed enough.



    1.) “Why won’t God heal amputees?”

    The narrator prefaces this with the assumption that all or most Christians believe that, if they pray enough, God will heal people. Then he points out that God never answers the prayers of amputees.

    First, there’s this: http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_ne...480207,00.html

    …and a reminder that God answers prayers within his time frame, not ours. And that he heals using his own means, not ours. I don’t subscribe to the notion that God is in the habit of spontaneously healing people with absolutely no scientific explanation. Not because he can’t, but because he won’t, and I’ll get to the reason for that a little later when I address the science question.

    He’s not a genie in a lamp we conjure up every time we’re in trouble. And prayer isn’t a magic bullet, cure-all cream that we rub in where it hurts until it feels better. Too many Christians have been suckered in by this new wave of Self-Help/Christianity hybrid theologies, where God is merely waiting in Heaven for us to say the Prayer of Jabez so he can finally give us everything we’ve ever wanted on a silver platter. It’s a misguided way of looking at scripture.

    Isaiah 55:8-9
    "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.”

    Yes, God answers prayers. It’s just that his answers aren’t always what we had in mind, and sometimes the answer is a simple “No.”

    And there’s a good reason for this.

    He can see the bigger picture. Namely, the eternal one. We’re so focused on our temporary state that death is regarded as the worst thing that could possibly happen to us. In reality, our existence on Earth is a tiny (although significant) portion of our lives on the eternal plane, and death is a transition to something better.

    This is an altogether different way of thinking about life. A strange paradigm to come to grips with if you’re not familiar with it. (You shouldn’t take this to mean that I’m saying life isn’t a valuable thing, and that our health doesn’t matter to God so it shouldn’t matter to us… I’m just trying to put things into a spiritual perspective.)


    So, how are we supposed to pray? “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth as it is in Heaven.”

    We’re to pray for his will, not ours.

    Like I said, it’s a different paradigm, and thus, completely understandable that it’s a point of confusion for atheists. And I have no doubt that everything I’ve said above would be filed under “weird rationalization” by the creator of the video.

    -Y

    (I’ll address science and the Bible next, followed by the “why do bad things happen to good people” question.)
    Last edited by yossarian; 06-26-2007 at 12:52 PM.

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    Re: Ten Questions For Any Intelligent Christian To Think About

    Quote Originally Posted by coontie
    Those of today who are, say, 20 years old or so and will survive, live until
    they are 70 - 80 years old will ever more have the truth revealed to them as to who and what human beings really are.
    And what do you suppose that is?
    Every Saint has a past, every sinner has a future..

  12. #11
    coontie is offline Vashudeva; Ferryman - doing the work... User Rank
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    Re: Ten Questions For Any Intelligent Christian To Think About

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban "The Fabulous"
    It is the Essenes who taught the Master Jesus to eat, to walk, to speak, to read, to write, to pray, and to unite himself with the One With No Name

    JC was also school by the magi- egyptain preisthood in Egypt.

    True Christianity has never been practiced, and no one has therefore had the chace to appreciate its value or it beauty.

    Until Christians are christians they have really no right to talk of christianity - it does not exist !
    Christs teachings exist, but christianity as he desired it is yet to come.



    True christianity is the all
    it is everything in union and oneness.

    Nope - it was Jesus that brought the Essenes out of their dark lifestyle and practices. Taught them to respect women and to care for other people and the 'natural' orientation of humanity.
    One of the problems with fundamentalist Islam today is that the fanatics are still stuck there. In more ancient times; B.C. they were practicing the same, as they do today. They have yet to have anyone to lead them out of such dark ways as Christ did for the others.
    All Mohammed cared about was furthering his personal agenda. Not about nuturing and developing a civilization for the future that would turn aside from brutuality and barbarity.
    That is why so many of them today can easily blow theirselves up and murder many innocent people in the process - they do not respect humanity and life in general.
    I agree with your comments regarding 'true christianity'.
    Too many people just want to babble and mouth off worn out meaningless rhetoric, much of it offred up, fashioned to secure positions of power, wealth and dominion over the masses. Really, very little thought or care has really ever been dedicated to nuturing and developing the individual and their personal spirtuality, which basically tells us and means that we are all good and whole in the eye of God. Whatever that is...
    Interesting thing I heard the other day, as well, that puts even Christian matters into context:
    A British Journalist was questioning a Malaysian Muslim Terrorist leader that has just recently been captured and is responsible for many deaths of just people at random. For instance, at hotels and in market places and places of entertainment. The Journalist ask him where in the Quran that it states that it is agreeable and acceptable to carry out such wanton brutality and murder. The terrorist reply was that it mattered not what was stated in the Quran in this regard. He was only motivated and carrying out the thoughts, wishes and commands of his Imam [religious teacher] and also Osama Ben Laudin.
    We find many individuals that call theirselves Christians, but about all they do is mouth of verse and scripture like a dumb parrot or talking machine. When their personal life is examined and the respect, caring, kindness and compassion and good deeds they display and perform for others, their life is a sham and a fraud.
    Last edited by coontie; 06-26-2007 at 09:49 PM.

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    Re: Ten Questions For Any Intelligent Christian To Think About

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeah Well Fine Then
    And what do you suppose that is?
    Perhaps not the answer you seek; but... :rolleyes: as time goes by you will see and you will be amazed... but then there are some living now that wouldn't be.
    By the way, don't hold your breath for the end of the Earth or the 'second-coming', with exception of catastrophic circumstances, which will be confined to local areas, as they always have.
    For example: the Mayan Indians felt that the end of their time had come [and it did] when the Spaniards landed in the 'New Wold". The Mayans thought they were Quetzcoatl, the 'blue-ones' that in their past history had visited them. They were'nt exactly the Messiah though, as Messiahs are thought to be - benevolent and making things better. They were murderous devils.
    Same is true for wht we today refer to as 'Native Americans'. The aborignal people that were here in what we call North America and Canada today. The coming of the white people was and end to their world.
    Those are the only 'end of the world' circumstances experienced by humans, all down through times.
    For one thing, humans of the Earth will know for certain that there are other beings preent in the Universe, some in our Galaxy, that have came and went here and influnced and innereacted with humans in the past. More so than many people realize. Soon, we will all be reminded of this.
    Why do you think the Hubble Telescope is such a priority item? A lot of money and trouble spent 'just for scientific curosity'? - not hardly.
    As well, the talk of being prepared to take out a meteor that is about to strike the Earth?

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    Re: Ten Questions For Any Intelligent Christian To Think About

    Quote Originally Posted by coontie
    Perhaps not the answer you seek; but... :rolleyes: as time goes by you will see and you will be amazed...
    What answers am I seeking, Coontie?
    Every Saint has a past, every sinner has a future..

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    Re: Ten Questions For Any Intelligent Christian To Think About

    The following are two posts of mine in a previous thread about creation and evolution. They should give you an idea of what I believe with regard to science and scripture, as well as glimpse into my belief regarding the importance of faith, something which is commonly misunderstood by people unfamiliar with anything but the surface details of Christianity.

    I should preface this by stating that not all Christians are in agreement with me on some of my stances below. When it comes to my thoughts on evolution, I’m definitely in the minority of believers. In fact, I’m fairly certain the person I was having this discussion with doesn’t even think I’m a Christian.

    That’s okay.

    These are merely sideline issues. Things to think about, for sure, but one should not hinge his faith on them. I hope what I’ve written below will clarify some of what I’m trying to say.

    Thanks for reading.

    -Y

    ________________________________________
    (From: "Which creation story?")

    Do you believe that the Bible is God's Word, and that we were born sinners because of the rebellion of Adam and Eve?

    Or do you believe that there never was an Adam and Eve, and that Christ lied about them (or perhaps He was confused, or something...) ?
    Just curious, Yo, I think you mentioned this before...but what do you believe in?

    Perhaps I mixed you up with someone else (in the political forum?), you mentioned something about the Palestinians and Jews - are you Muslim?
    Wasn't me. I generally stay out of the Zionist/Palestinian debates.

    To answer your question, "what do you believe in?"... I'm a Christian. I believe Jesus was the only son of God and was crucified to justify the debt of my sins.

    As for the creation story, as told in Genesis, I believe it is allegorical. And I don't think Christ lied by talking about Adam and Eve; he was simply referring to scripture. Remember, he wasn't omniscient like the Father; rather, he was a man: “…who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped…” Further evidence of this is seen in Garden of Gethsemane, where he prayed “if possible, let this cup pass from me…” He was a model of faith for all of us to follow, and had he known everything, faith in God would have been inherently unnecessary.

    The authors of the Old Testament were not scientists; they were fishermen, shepherds, farmers, ex-public officials, and a few of them kings. They were concerned with the 'when,' 'what' and 'whom' in the story. When? In the beginning. Whom? God. What? Created the Heavens and the Earth.

    Since they weren't scientists, they didn't possess the knowledge or language necessary to express the complexities of creation (nor did the language even exist yet), so they did the best they could with God’s inspiration. The scientific process would later do the work of dissecting, theorizing, and naming its various moving parts, and scientists continue to explore and marvel at God’s handiwork, whether they believe in Him or not.

    __________________________________

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    Re: Ten Questions For Any Intelligent Christian To Think About

    (next post in "Which creation story?")

    As kazza and others have pointed out in this thread and in others like it, the science presented by believers to try and prove the Bible is often incredibly weak when looked at objectively. And as you admit, you have a bias toward any information that might loosely validate your literal interpretation of scripture, and you tend to disregard everything else.

    I put up a thread about this phenomenon a while back. It’s called confirmation bias and is defined as “the tendency to search for or interpret new information in a way that confirms one's preconceptions and avoid information and interpretations which contradict prior beliefs.”

    If evolution is true, then there never was an Adam and Eve. And if there never was an Adam and Eve, then we're not sinners.
    Interesting string of logic you’ve thrown together. I’m not sure I agree with it.

    But before I get into that, let me make one thing abundantly clear: God has no limits. On that point I thing we’re in agreement, at least. The creation story might have happened precisely as it’s outlined in Genesis. He’s God, after all. He could’ve winked creation into existence, for I all I know (or care, for that matter.) The most important thing, in my opinion, is the belief that God is the origin of everything that ever was, is, or will be.

    Back to your comment regarding Adam and Eve. “If there never was an Adam and Eve, then we’re not sinners.” This is really an issue of free will. God gives us life and the choice to obey him or not. Without free will, love could not exist. The inherent drawback to free will is, of course, that we have the choice to disobey. When Satan came into the world to tempt us, sin inevitably followed. Precisely when or by whom the first sin was committed is irrelevant. The potential to live a perfectly obedient life is there at birth, but none of us has, or ever will, live up to it.

    Also, it has also been extrapolated (scientifically) that, because the earth is actually getting flatter, if the earth was millions of years old it would resemble a pancake by now.

    Also, the moon has less than a foot of dust on it. If it was millions of years old, then the Apollo mission spacecrafts would sink completely into dust.

    Note, I haven't tested these for myself - this was what I had read/heard, I believe these by faith.
    You say you believe these “by faith,” which, to me, begs a very simple, but important, question: Why?

    Why would you base even a slight amount of your faith on science, instead of God alone? Is tangible, scientific evidence a part of the foundation of your walk? If so, why? If not, why would you want to suggest that it should be to people who are not yet Christians?

    Moon dust? Magnetic fields? When you say you believe them “by faith,” you’re not placing your faith on a God beyond understanding; you’re placing your faith on two obscure (and, to put it lightly, highly suspect) theories.

    Even worse, when a non-believer, who possesses a background in science, sees a Christian trying to provide scientific evidence to back up their beliefs with a piece of weak, pseudo-scientific nonsense, a line is immediately drawn from said nonsense directly to God. The two are now associated with one another in the mind of the non-believer. God never personally endorsed it, mind you, but that doesn’t matter… now it’s splattered all over TBN and the 700 Club and every cable news station with thirty seconds to spare.

    So, could the above be a bunch of lies? Sure. Could they be true? Sure. We're both going by faith.
    Yes, but there is a key difference between us in this respect. Evolution is not in any way tied to my faith in God. I’m not here trying to convince anyone that evolution is correct, and seven-day creationism is wrong. This is not my purpose. Far from it.

    I am here to dispel the prevailing misconception that if you subscribe to evolutionary theory, you can not be a Christian.

    Far too much of the Church’s energy is wasted on its attempts to turn the Bible into a science textbook. Christianity shouldn’t even peek its head into a scientific debate. If your relationship with God is at all grounded in scientific evidence, your faith is misplaced. If you’re using scientific evidence, in any way, to witness to people, you are not guiding them toward a walk of faith, based on love and a personal relationship with Christ. You’re making a sales pitch -- the spiritual equivalent of dumping a box of baking soda on their living room carpet to try and show them how well the vacuum works.


    The message being sent by the Religious Right (who purport to speak for all of us) to non-believers is as follows: "If you’re gay, pro-choice, or subscribe to evolutionary theory: Stay out! We don’t want you, and God doesn’t want you." I know this is not their intention, but it is undoubtedly their effect. The Religious Right is one of the worst things to happen to Christianity since the Spanish Inquisition.


    As for my interpretation of scripture: I believe it was God-inspired and man-written.

    It was written by men of faith, not men of science, and thus, I believe it is a guidebook on how to live a life of faith, not a textbook to explain the inner-workings of time, the universe, and everything in between.

    I understand you believe in a strictly literal interpretation of scripture, which means there are a lot of things we probably won’t see eye to eye on. We could go back and forth for pages discussing specific places in scripture without either one of us changing our mind, so I'd rather avoid that situation and agree to disagree.

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    coontie is offline Vashudeva; Ferryman - doing the work... User Rank
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    Re: Ten Questions For Any Intelligent Christian To Think About

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeah Well Fine Then
    What answers am I seeking, Coontie?
    How should I know - I am not in your head... :rolleyes:
    If you was paying attention you should have noticed the word: "perhaps'...
    WHich means, to recite the a,b ,cs, I am uncertain as to what you are looking for... :rolleyes:
    Interesting how you referred only to that and passed the remain context... :rolleyes:
    Last edited by coontie; 06-27-2007 at 04:59 AM.

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