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  1. #1
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    Will Sicko make a dent?

    The thing about Michael Moore is that as he got further into his career, he resorted to more dishonest, manipulative techniques. Now, I'm not saying I support Bush or Republicans or anything, and that I'm against everything that Moore fights for, but I'm just commenting of the ethics of his persuasive techniques.

    It turns out in this movie he keeps his mouth shut more and lets the 9/11 victims speak. That's where I think the movie's credibility lies. These people were noble and patriotic enough to rush into ground zero. Ann Coulter, Limbaugh and the rest will have a harder time smearing them.

    But we know from Fahrenheit 9/11 that Moore is a little less than honest. We all know that the coalition of the willing had Japan, Britian, Australia, and Spain going in, not just these tiny countries that he listed. That's one of the more obvious techniques of manipulation. You can do a search for them on the net.

    You also had the Bowling for Columbine part where it shows the number of gun related deaths in America compared to other first world countries, but he totally neglects to mention that America has a significantly higher population, so the numbers are meant to shock your emotions rather than appeal to your rationale.

    The conservative right has always suspected Moore of being a Communist, and so have I. I always thought to myself: 'So what are you proposing? Socialism? Why don't you just say it then? Be honest."

    But he can't be. And the left has always been in denial about its fondness of communism. But now with Moore actually taking these victims to Communist Cuba, the writing is on the wall.

    I'm a Canadian, and I can say that after all I've personally been through and fmy family and friends have been through, I'm proud and grateful of the health care system here. But maybe it's because I haven't seen any other system. Many doctors who graduate here do flock to America where the pay is better. Undoubtedly, you can get better surgeries (if you're willing to pay) in America, a detail I am sure Moore will neglect to mention.

    I think if Americans are going to forced to pay taxes, you may as well offer a basic set of universal services. Obviously, we don't want to be so cruel as a community that people who show up in the emergency room with a terrible wound don't get treated because they don't have a VISA card on them or something. Maybe Limbaugh would like that. I don't know. I guess America gets to decide though through the power of their vote. If you demand it in big enough numbers, you'll get it.

    But what can we say for Moore himself? I personally think that because he has not aplologized for not being objective, for bending the truth in previous movies, and not admitting to wanting socialism or communism, his credibility is zero. But I do think it will be worth hearing what the 9/11 heroes have to say, and then judging for ourselves.

  2. #2
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    Re: Will Sicko make a dent?

    Moore offered $10,000 to anybody who could find a single fact in Fahrenheit 911 that was wrong. I say go for it Ronald.

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    Re: Will Sicko make a dent?

    Quote Originally Posted by bairdi
    Moore offered $10,000 to anybody who could find a single fact in Fahrenheit 911 that was wrong. I say go for it Ronald.
    I like Moore, and I wonder why so many in the US seem so hostile toward the man.

    So, well said there, Mr B.
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    Re: Will Sicko make a dent?

    Source: http://news. bbc.co.uk/ 2/hi/entertainme nt/6672515. stm

    Saturday, 19 May 2007, 14:24 GMT 15:24 UK
    Moore courts Cannes controversy
    By Stephen Robb
    Entertainment reporter, BBC News, in Cannes



    Michael Moore won the Palme d'Or at Cannes three years ago


    Press views: Sicko
    Michael Moore has launched his latest controversial documentary in Cannes, saying he feared it would be seized by US authorities before it was seen.

    Sicko, in which the director attacks the US health system, has had its first screening at the French film festival.

    But the US Treasury is investigating whether Moore broke the trade embargo against Cuba by filming there.

    Moore told reporters he had to send a copy of the film to an unnamed country in case they confiscated the original.

    The Treasury said it had no record of a licence being issued authorising travel to Cuba, and Moore could face a fine or jail. (YWFT - Why do you need a licence to travel to Cuba???)

    A copy of Sicko was sent out of the US less than 24 hours after he was told about the investigation, the film-maker said.


    Moore took 9/11 rescuers to Guantanamo in Cuba
    His lawyers advised him the master copy could be confiscated as part of the probe, he told journalists.

    The documentary includes sequences in which Moore takes rescue workers from the 11 September attacks in New York to near the US naval base at Guantanamo Bay and a Cuban hospital.

    The group are suffering from conditions thought to be linked to their work clearing up debris from the site of the World Trade Center.

    "The point was not to go to Cuba, it was to go to American soil, to Guantanamo Bay, to take the 9/11 rescue workers there to receive the same healthcare that they are giving the al-Qaeda detainees," Moore said.

    "No film-maker should ever have to be talking about jail or fines or where he or she can travel."


    Moore travelled the world to look at different healthcare systems
    In a letter dated 2 May, the Treasury's Office of Foreign Assets Control gave Moore 20 working days to provide more details of his Cuba visit, including who went with him and why.

    "This office has no record that a specific licence was issued authorising you to engage in travel-related transactions involving Cuba," it said.

    Moore told a Cannes press conference: "I know a lot of you have written: 'How dumb are they to give us all this publicity?'

    "But I am the one who is personally being investigated, and I am the one who is personally liable for potential fines or jail so I don't take it lightly."

    The film-maker described Sicko as a "call to action" over the provision of healthcare.

    'Rise up'

    "We are never going to have real change in the United States if the public doesn't see that it will only happen when they rise up out of their theatre seats and do something about it."

    Moore's film looks at healthcare provision in the UK, France and Canada, and the director said the US should adopt the best elements of other countries' systems.

    "What we should do as Americans is what we always do... just take all the things that each of you are doing right and put it into one system, and call it the American system." ;)

    The film-maker won the Palme d'Or in Cannes in 2004 with Fahrenheit 9/11, an examination of the White House's decision to go to war in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    He won an Oscar in 2002 for the documentary Bowling for Columbine, a critique of US gun culture in the wake of the shootings at Columbine High School.
    Every Saint has a past, every sinner has a future..

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    Re: Will Sicko make a dent?

    I like Moore a lot too and am anxious to see his new film. I've loved his work ever since I saw "Roger and me." I think his films relate to people on several different levels, both intellectually and emotionally, and strikes a cord in many concerning some of the social inequities. Though many say "Bowling for Columbine" was about the gun culture, I found it to be more about the culture of violence that permeates American society.

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    Re: Will Sicko make a dent?

    Quote Originally Posted by bairdi
    I like Moore a lot too and am anxious to see his new film. I've loved his work ever since I saw "Roger and me." I think his films relate to people on several different levels, both intellectually and emotionally, and strikes a cord in many concerning some of the social inequities. Though many say "Bowling for Columbine" was about the gun culture, I found it to be more about the culture of violence that permeates American society.
    Personally, I think most of his critics are neo cons, and Bush apologist types, imo.
    Every Saint has a past, every sinner has a future..

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    Re: Will Sicko make a dent?

    Quote Originally Posted by bairdi
    Moore offered $10,000 to anybody who could find a single fact in Fahrenheit 911 that was wrong. I say go for it Ronald.
    Kent Hovind has offered $250,000 for anyone that can prove evolution. That no one has claimed the prize does not mean evolution has occured, simply that he has worded the conditions in such a way that it is impossible to claim the prize.

    I agree with much of what Moore has to say, but his films, whether you technically consider them dishonest or not, are highly deceptive. Is that just the sign of a good film maker? I dunno, but I would certainly not conisder them documentaries, rather movies for entertainment/brainwashing purposes only.

    A list of deceptions in Farenheit 9/11:
    http://www.davekopel.com/Terror/Fift...enheit-911.htm

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    Re: Will Sicko make a dent?

    Quote Originally Posted by bairdi
    Moore offered $10,000 to anybody who could find a single fact in Fahrenheit 911 that was wrong. I say go for it Ronald.
    Yes, it's easy to make that challenge. But suppose he offered $10 000 to anything in his movies that were MISLEADING.

    For example, if you watch Bowling for Columbine, the part where Michael Moore calls for the NRA president Heston to turn around, there's a cut shot to Moore's reaction. The problem is we can clearly see in the previous shot there is no camera man in front of him to get that shot, which means he had to fake it later.

    There is a lot of this material available, talking about the context of a lot of the decisions.

    Like Moore's statement in Fahrenheit 9/11 that no Iraqi ever killed a U.S. citizen. That's simply not true. There were some minor incidents where Iraq shot down some U.S. planes in the no fly-zone somewhere in the 1990s. And besides, Moore can keep his money.

    The list goes on and on and on.

    Imagine this. Imagine someone is going on a date with your daughter, and they had pre-marital sex on that date, and when they come back you ask what did they do, and they neglect to mention it. They've lied by omission.

    Or lets say I say someone attacked me. They kicked me. You'd feel bad for me and think the other person is a monster. But lets say they were trying to subdue me because I was stealing their life savings or something.

    Moore lies not by telling un-true statements, but by removing any context that does not suit his agenda. Likewise, Rush Limbaugh does the same, except obviously his agenda is politically polar opposite.

    By telling the truth in a deceptive and misleading manner, he is lying. If he had said: "I'll give $10000 to anyone who can show me where I faked a scene", I'd have $50000 bucks. I'd be a rich man.

    For example, that speech with Bush talking about the the have's and have-nots was pre 9/11, a very deceptive move. He falsely leads you into assuming he's saying that line while the troops are fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq, that he's wearing a tux, drinking champagne and joking with rich elites.

    Moore relies on three things to convince of your arguments:

    1. Your prejudice towards the conservative right and Republicans.
    2. Knee-jerk emotional reactions of sympathy.
    3. That you won't check up on substancial counter-arguments, like lists to show where he dishonestly manipulates you, or to check the context of his facts and evidence. For example, the presidential daily brief he claims contained info about Bin Laden's people in flight schools, what percentage of people who saw that movie bothered to READ that document. Less than 1%, probably.

    That's why we have places like Scam.com. We have this great chance to look at things from a number of different angles and dissect it.
    Last edited by Ronald; 05-24-2007 at 09:56 AM.

  9. 05-24-2007, 10:00 AM


  10. #9
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    Re: Will Sicko make a dent?

    Go Michael Moore! He's a troublemaker and troublemakers play an important role in society. They stir the anthill and make people who get too complacent, think.

    The conservative Right....would that be the old school who didn't mind what people did as long as they were law-abiding and careful with money, or the new school who wants to know who we hang out with, censor what we read or see or say, teach kids hokum (creationism) , and take away our civil rights?
    All advertising is lies, deceit, and misdirection.

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    Re: Will Sicko make a dent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusted
    Go Michael Moore! He's a troublemaker and troublemakers play an important role in society. They stir the anthill and make people who get too complacent, think.

    The conservative Right....would that be the old school who didn't mind what people did as long as they were law-abiding and careful with money, or the new school who wants to know who we hang out with, censor what we read or see or say, teach kids hokum (creationism) , and take away our civil rights?
    Aye man, like these trumpets mentioned below...


    The Christian Right's Fear of Pleasure is Our Greatest Threat to Choice

    By Chris Hedges, Truthdig. Posted May 19, 2007.

    http://www.alternet .org/rights/ 51674/

    The war against abortion has nothing to do with the protection of life. It is a war against an open society -- a cover for assaults against sexual pleasure and personal choice.

    Jeniece Learned stood amid a crowd of earnest-looking men and women, many with small gold crosses in their lapels or around their necks, in a hotel lobby in Valley Forge, Pa. She had an easy smile and a thick mane of black, shoulder-length hair. She was carrying a booklet called "Ringing In a Culture of Life," which was the schedule of the two-day event she was attending, organized by the Pennsylvania Pro-Life Federation.

    The event was "dedicated to the 46 million children who have died from legal abortions since 1973 and the mothers and fathers who mourn their loss."

    Learned, who had driven five hours from a town outside Youngstown, Ohio, was raised Jewish. She wore a gold Star of David around her neck with a Christian cross inset in the middle of the design. She stood up in one of the morning sessions, attended by about 300 people, most of them women.

    The speaker, Alveda King, niece of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., had asked if there were any "post-abortive" women present. The most fervent activists in the pro-life movement have usually had abortions, with large numbers admitting to multiple abortions.

    Learned runs a small pregnancy counseling clinic called Pregnancy Services of Western Pennsylvania, in Sharon, where she tries to talk young girls and women, most of them poor, out of having abortions. She speaks in local public schools, promoting sexual abstinence as the only acceptable form of contraception. And she has found in the fight against abortion, and in her conversion, a structure, purpose and meaning that previously eluded her.

    The relentless drive against abortion by the Christian right -- the first salvo having been fired with the 5-to-4 Supreme Court decision last month to uphold the federal ban on the procedure known as "partial birth abortion" -- has nothing to do with the protection of life. It is, rather, a cover for a wider and more pernicious assault against the ability of women to control their own bodies, the use of contraception and sexual pleasure.

    The movement openly conflates contraceptives with devices or substances that cause abortion. It holds up as heroes of "conscience" those pharmacists who refuse to sell contraceptives. It works to block over-the-counter sales of Plan B emergency contraceptive pills. It peddles, with hundreds of millions in tax dollars handed to the movement by the Bush administration, abstinence-only sex-ed curricula and opposes a vaccine against the HPV virus, the major cause of cervical cancer, claiming it would promote promiscuity.

    The denial of contraception, as is well documented, increases the number of unwanted pregnancies and abortions. And abortion is never going to go away. If it again becomes illegal, the rich, as in the past, will find ways to provide abortions for their wives, mistresses and girlfriends, and the poor will die in unhygienic back rooms.

    But since this is a war with a wider agenda, abortion statistics and facts do not count. The Christian right fears pleasure, especially sexual pleasure, which it sees as degrading, corrupting and tainted. For many, their own experiences with sex -- coupled with their descent into addictions and often sexual and domestic abuse before they found Christ -- have led them to build a movement that creates an external rigidity to cope with the chaos of human existence, a chaos that overwhelmed them. They do not trust their own urges, their capacity for self-restraint or judgment. The Christian right permits its followers to project evil outward, a convenient escape for people unable to face the darkness and the psychological torments within them.

    The leaders of this movement understand that the only emotion that cannot be subsumed into communal life, which they seek to dominate and control, is love. They fear the power of love, especially when magnified and expressed through tender, sexual relationships, which remove couples from their control. Sex, when not a utilitarian form of procreation, is dangerous.

    They seek to fashion a world where good and evil are clearly defined and upheld by the nation's judicial system. The battle against abortion is a battle to build a society where pleasure and freedom, where the capacity of the individual and especially women to make choices, and indeed even love itself, are banished. And this is why pro-life groups oppose contraception -- even for those who are married. The fight against abortion is the facade for a wider fight against the right of an individual in a democracy.

    Army of God, a pro-life organization that holds up as Christian "heroes" those who murder abortion providers, defines birth control as another form of abortion, as do many other pro-life groups. In the "Birth Control Is Evil" section of their website it reads: "Birth control is evil and a sin. Birth control is anti-baby and anti-child. ...Why would you stop your own child from being conceived or born? What kind of human being are you?"

    Learned's life, before she was saved, was typically chaotic and painful. Her childhood was stolen from her. She was sexually abused by a close family member. Her mother periodically woke Learned and her younger sister and two younger brothers in the middle of the night to flee landlords who wanted back rent. The children were bundled into the car and driven in darkness to a strange apartment in another town. Her mother worked nights and weekends as a bartender. Learned, the oldest, often had to run the home. She got pregnant in high school and had an abortion.

    "There was a lot of fighting," she said. "I remember my dad hitting my mom one time and him going to jail. I don't have a lot of memories, mind you, before eighth grade because of the sexual abuse. When he divorced my mom, he divorced us, too."

    "My grandfather committed suicide, my mom and my dad both tried suicide, my brothers tried suicide," she said. "In my family, there was no hope. The only way to solve problems when they got bad was to end your life."

    She eventually married, had a born-again experience and began taking classes at Pacific Christian College in Orange County in California. During a chapel service an anti-abortion group, Living Alternative, showed a film called "The Silent Scream."

    "You see in this movie this baby backing up trying to get away from this suction tube," she said. "And, its mouth is open and it is like this baby is screaming. I flipped out. It was at that moment that God just took this veil that I had over my eyes for the last eight years. I couldn't breathe. I was hyperventilating. I ran outside. One of the girls followed me from Living Alternative. And she said, 'Did you commit your life to Christ?' And I said, 'I did.' And she said, 'Did you ask for your forgiveness of sins?' And I said, 'I did.' And she goes, 'Does that mean all your sins, or does that mean some of them?' And I said, 'I guess it means all of them.' So she said, 'Basically, you are thinking God hasn't forgiven you for your abortion because that is a worse sin than any of your other sins that you have done.' "

    The film ushered her into the fight to make abortion illegal. Her activism, like that of many women in the movement, became atonement for her own abortion.
    Every Saint has a past, every sinner has a future..

  12. #11
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    Re: Will Sicko make a dent?

    She struggled with severe depression after she gave birth to her daughter Rachel. When she came home from the hospital she was unable to care for her infant. She thought she saw an 8-year-old boy standing next to her bed. It was, she is sure, the image of the son she had "murdered."

    "I started crying and asking God over and over again to forgive me," she remembered. "I had murdered his child. I asked him to forgive me over and over again. It was just incredible. I was possessed. On the fourth day I remember hearing God's voice. 'I have your baby, now get up!' It was the most incredibly freeing and peaceful moment. I got up and I showered and I ate. I just knew it was God's voice."

    The fight against abortion is a battle against a culture she and those in the movement despise. It is a culture they believe betrayed them. The rigidity of the new belief system, the sanctification of hatred toward those who would "murder" the unborn or contaminate America with the godless creed of "secular humanism," fosters feelings of righteousness and virtue. But it also means destroying all competing communities. The sense of entitlement and inclusiveness, brought on by the certitude of belief, is matched by the power of destructive fury.

    Learned lives in the nation's Rust Belt. The flight of manufacturing jobs has turned most of the old steel mill towns around her into wastelands of poverty and urban decay. The days when steel workers could make middle-class salaries are a distant and cherished memory. She lives amid America's vast and growing class of dispossessed, those tens of millions of working poor, 30 million of whom make less than $8.70 an hour, the official poverty level for a family of four.

    Most economists contend that it takes at least twice this amount to provide basic necessities to a family of four. These low-wage jobs, which come without benefits or job security, have meant billions in profits for corporations that no longer feel the pressure or the need to take care of their workers. But this new American landscape has also bred a profound despair and hopelessness, as well as physical destruction of community that fuels the Christian right.

    The war to "protect life," to crush "the culture of death," is a war against the open society. It is a war to push back the gains in women's rights, in personal choice, in the power of the individual to form his or her own life. It is a war that seeks to refashion America into a place where external forms of repression, imposed by the government, are used in a bid to contain the brokenness, desperation and emotional turmoil of those Americans whom we, as a society, betrayed.

    It is, in short, a war of revenge. And until we re-enfranchise these Americans into society, until we give them hope and alleviate the economic and social blights that have plunged them into the arms of demagogues and charlatans who promise a mythical, unachievable Christian paradise and utopia, we will have to face a growing assault on our personal liberties and freedoms.

    Chris Hedges, who graduated from Harvard Divinity School and was for nearly two decades a foreign correspondent for The New York Times, is the author of "American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America."
    Every Saint has a past, every sinner has a future..

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    Re: Will Sicko make a dent?

    It's not that hopeless here vis-a-vis the loss of the manufacturing jobs. It's only hopeless if one accepts defeat. I'm on my own now, subbing, doing punch work (fixing construction mistakes), and fixing houses. I really understand houses.

    I did make good money in the Corporate world but then that job went away and I had to move on. So move on I did. In this day and age, in order to survive we all have to educate ourselves as needed, look for opportunity and just grit it out. At least I'm having fun. Well, have to go to work soon, getting an attic ready for insulation.

    Cheers.
    All advertising is lies, deceit, and misdirection.

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    Re: Will Sicko make a dent?

    Those miserable Puritans. Ever since they landed........ Religious Right been rearing it's ugly head ever since then.
    All advertising is lies, deceit, and misdirection.

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    Re: Will Sicko make a dent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusted
    Those miserable Puritans. Ever since they landed........ Religious Right been rearing it's ugly head ever since then.
    There is nothing right about the religous right.

    Mugs, all of them.
    Every Saint has a past, every sinner has a future..

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    Re: Will Sicko make a dent?

    So Moore is a communist, because he manipulates the facts??

    He isn't selling you a new car or a house, or masquerading as a news source, or even running for office, he is provoking thought, he's asking you to look at the situation and he asks a lot of questions because they are the same questions people who live in the house of arrogance will not, no wait Im sorry, refuse to answer?

    His documentaries, if you wish to call them that, are tongue and cheek!? Its a fake man on the street broadcast (excuse me sir did you see what happened? Yea I did!) that uses facts intertwined with creative editing, and camera angles to give the feel of an actual news broadcast? Its satire just like the Daily Show! If you choose to look at a deceitful camera angle trick and conclude the entire production is fabricated as well, you are strolling through the magic kingdom with rose colored blinders on??

    It's like, the peasant who first asks the question, whos the fat guy without no clothes on? Then the Emperor insists that his remarks were besmirching, that he is obviously a threat to our very existence, and must be some sort of demon from hell that the almighty himself has sent among us to test our loyalty! So the loyal subjects, without any coaxing at all do the right thing, and stone the poor schmuck to death as a heretic, never questioning the naked fat guys motives!

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    Re: Will Sicko make a dent?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeah Well Fine Then
    The Christian Right's Fear of Pleasure is Our Greatest Threat to Choice

    Excellent post!
    I have always found it disturbing that the Fundy Bible thumping nit-wits have never once mentioned this national disgrace.
    Also barely a whimper for the thousands of infants and unborn that have been bombed into oblivion in Afghanistan, Iraq, Lebanon, the occupied territories .

    Infant mortality rate

    The infant mortality rate (IMR) is reported as number of live newborns dying under a year of age per one thousand live births.

    1. Singapore 2.28 deaths/1,000 live births
    2. Sweden 2.77 deaths/1,000 live births
    3. Hong Kong 2.97 deaths/1,000 live births
    4. Japan 3.28 deaths/1,000 live births
    5. Iceland 3.31 deaths/1,000 live births
    6. Finland 3.59 deaths/1,000 live births
    7. Norway 3.73 deaths/1,000 live births
    8. Malta 3.94 deaths/1,000 live births
    9. Czech Republic 3.97 deaths/1,000 live births
    10. Andorra 4.05 deaths/1,000 live births
    11. Germany 4.20 deaths/1,000 live births
    12. France 4.31 deaths/1,000 live births
    13. Macau 4.39 deaths/1,000 live births
    14. Switzerland 4.43 deaths/1,000 live births
    15. Spain 4.48 deaths/1,000 live births
    16. Slovenia 4.50 deaths/1,000 live births
    17. Denmark 4.63 deaths/1,000 live births
    18. Austria 4.68 deaths/1,000 live births
    19. Australia 4.76 deaths/1,000 live births
    Belgium 4.76 deaths/1,000 live births
    21. Liechtenstein 4.77 deaths/1,000 live births
    22. Canada 4.82 deaths/1,000 live births
    23. Luxembourg 4.88 deaths/1,000 live births
    24. Netherlands 5.11 deaths/1,000 live births
    25. Portugal 5.13 deaths/1,000 live births
    26. United Kingdom 5.22 deaths/1,000 live births
    27. Ireland 5.50 deaths/1,000 live births
    28. Monaco 5.53 deaths/1,000 live births
    29. Greece 5.63 deaths/1,000 live births
    30. San Marino 5.85 deaths/1,000 live births
    31. New Zealand 5.96 deaths/1,000 live births
    32. Aruba 6.02 deaths/1,000 live births
    33. Italy 6.07 deaths/1,000 live births
    34. Cuba 6.45 deaths/1,000 live births
    35. Taiwan 6.52 deaths/1,000 live births
    36. United States 6.63 deaths/1,000 live births

    Note that a new born has a better chance of surving the first year of life in Czech Republic or Cuba than in the US!

    Portions of this site are based on public domain works from the U.S. Dept. of State and the CIA World Fact Book
    All original material copyright 2002 - 107 GeographyIQ.com. All Rights Reserved.
    http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/r..._Rate_aall.htm
    Last edited by Phinnly Slash Buster; 05-24-2007 at 07:44 PM.

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