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  1. #1
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    American Gun culture

    the aussie PM has it dead on---i never understood our society and the obesssion with using guns to "solve" their problems.

    I love it when people say "guns dont kill people, people do". I suppose heroin doesnt kill people, just people do. yet no one has s problem with outlawing that.

    U.S. gun laws draw heat after massacre


    LONDON - The Virginia Tech shootings sparked criticism of U.S. gun control laws around the world Tuesday. Editorials lashed out at the availability of weapons, and the leader of Australia — one of America's closest allies — declared that America's gun culture was costing lives.
    South Korea's Foreign Ministry said the government hoped Monday's shootings, allegedly carried out by a 23-year-old South Korean native, would not "stir up racial prejudice or confrontation."

    While some focused blame only on the gunman, world opinion over U.S. gun laws was almost unanimous: Access to weapons increases the probability of shootings. There was no sympathy for the view that more guns would have saved lives by enabling students to shoot the assailant.

    "We took action to limit the availability of guns and we showed a national resolve that the gun culture that is such a negative in the United States would never become a negative in our country," said Australian Prime Minister John Howard, who staked his political career on promoting tough gun laws after a gunman went on one of the world's deadliest killing sprees 11 years ago.

    The tragedy in a Tasmanian tourist resort left 35 people dead. Afterward, Australia's gun laws were changed to prohibit automatic weapons and handguns and toughen licensing and storage restrictions.

    Handguns are also banned in Britain — a prohibition that forces even the country's Olympic pistol shooting team from practicing on its own soil. In Sweden, civilians can acquire firearm permits only if they have a hunting license or are members of a shooting club and have no criminal record. In Italy, people must have a valid reason for wanting one. Firearms are forbidden for private Chinese citizens.

    Still, leaders from Britain, Germany, Mexico, China,
    Afghanistan and France stopped short of criticizing
    President Bush or U.S. gun laws when they offered sympathies to the families of Monday's victims.

    Editorials were less diplomatic.

    "Only the names change — And the numbers," read a headline in the Times of London. "Why, we ask, do Americans continue to tolerate gun laws and a culture that seems to condemn thousands of innocents to death every year, when presumably, tougher restrictions, such as those in force in European countries, could at least reduce the number?"

    The French daily Le Monde said the regularity of mass shootings across the Atlantic was a blotch on America's image.

    "It would be unjust and especially false to reduce the United States to the image created, in a recurrent way, from the bursts of murderous fury that some isolated individuals succumb to. But acts like this are rare elsewhere, and tend to often disfigure the 'American dream.'"

    Police started identifying the victims Tuesday. One was a Peruvian student identified as Daniel Perez Cueva, 21, according to his mother Betty Cuevas, who said her son was studying international relations.

    Professors from India, Israel and Canada also were killed.

    Liviu Librescu, 76, an engineering science and mathematics lecturer, tried to stop the gunman from entering his classroom by blocking the door before he was fatally shot, his son said Tuesday from Tel Aviv.

    "My father blocked the doorway with his body and asked the students to flee," Joe Librescu said. His father, a Holocaust survivor, immigrated to Israel from Romania, and was on sabbatical in Virginia.

    Indian-born G.V. Loganathan, 51, a lecturer at the Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering, was also among the dead, his brother G.V. Palanivel told Indian media.

    "We all feel like we have had an electric shock. We do not know what to do," Palanivel said.

    Britain's 46 homicides involving firearms last year was the lowest since the late 1980s. New York City, with 8 million people compared to 53 million in England and Wales, recorded 590 homicides last year.

    "If the guns are harder to get a hold of, fewer people will do it," said Michael Dent, a 65-year-old construction worker in London. "You can't walk up to a supermarket or shop and buy a gun like in the States."

    But even in Germany, where gun-control laws are strict, a teenager in 2002 shot and killed 12 teachers, a secretary, two students and a police officer at a high school. The shooter was a gun club member licensed to own weapons. The attack led Germany to raise the age for owning recreational firearms from 18 to 21.

    The Swedish daily Goteborgs-Posten said without access to weapons, the killings at Virginia Tech may have been prevented.

    "What exactly triggered the massacre in Virginia is unclear, but the fundamental reason is often the perpetrator's psychological problems in combination with access to weapons," it wrote.

    The shootings drew intense media coverage in China, in part because the school has a large Chinese student body.

    "This incident reflects the problem of gun control in America," Yuan Peng, an American studies expert in China, was quoted as saying by state-run China Daily.

    Only 7 percent of the more than 26,000 students at Virginia Tech are foreign, according to the school Web site. But Chinese make up nearly a third of that.

    In Italy, there are three types of licenses for gun ownership: for personal safety, target practice and skeet shooting, and hunting. Authorization is granted by the police. To obtain a gun for personal safety, the owner must be an adult and have a "valid" reason.

    Italy's leading daily Corriere della Sera's main story on the shootings was an opinion piece entitled "Guns at the Supermarket" — a critical view of the U.S. gun lobby and the ease with which guns can be purchased. State-run RAI radio also discussed at length what it said were lax standards for gun ownership in the United States.

    "The latest attack on a U.S. campus will shake up America, maybe it will provoke more vigorous reactions than in the past, but it won't change the culture of a country that has the notion of self-defense imprinted on its DNA and which considers the right of having guns inalienable," Corriere wrote in its front-page story.

    Several Italian graduate students at Virginia Tech recounted how they barricaded themselves inside a geology department building not far from the scene of the shooting.

    In Mexico, radio commentators criticized the availability of firearms in the U.S. Others renewed Mexico's complaint that most guns in Mexico are smuggled in from the United States.

    The killings led newspapers' front pages, with Mexico City's Dario Monitor reporting: "Terror returns to the U.S.: 32 assassinated on university campus." The tabloid Metro compared Mexico's death toll Monday from drug violence to the number of people killed at Virginia Tech, in a front-page headline that read: "U.S. 33, Mexico 20."

  2. #2
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    Re: American Gun culture

    February 26, 2003

    Swords Don't Kill People! Novels Kill People!

    Mark Kleiman, a professor supported in high style by the hard-working taxpayers of Orange County, has been reading the kind of violent-youth-subculture glorifying novel that right-thinking people like William Bennett and Lynne Cheney see as a large part of the permissive-decadent destructive culture imposed on us by a liberal elite that is responsible for so many of the ills of America today. Shame on him! Shame! Shame!

    Mark A. R. Kleiman: Just finished reading (re-reading, actually) a book about a young man who starts out in life with almost no money, no job or job-relevant education, a deadly weapon, and a determination that anyone who fails to treat him with what he considers proper respect will pay for it in blood. Eager to achieve membership in one of the two gangs of armed thugs who between them terrorize the peaceful citizens of a great city, he challenges three of its respected members to fight to the death. When their affray is interrupted by members of the rival gang, he joins with the three he was about to fight, and together they kill one of their assailants and leave three others seriously wounded. That makes the four of them inseparable friends from then on.
    The rest of the book is largely a description of their cheerful conversation and their murderous and erotic exploits. Eschewing any actual work as socially degrading, the protagonist and his three friends live mainly off the money they get from various lady-loves. The story ends with the ritualized killing of the former wife of one of the four (who, in the narrative past of the book, had already strangled her and left her for dead but apparently had failed to complete the job) in revenge for her having poisoned the young protagonistÂ?s favorite among his girlfriends (who is also the wife of his landlord).

    As a measure of how far moral degradation can go, the author presents the four central characters as charming, brave, and admired, encouraging the reader to identify with them without at all concealing the reality of their mercenary promiscuity and their commitment to violence as a way of life. I expect William Bennett to have a word or two to say to the author, whose delicate ear for dialogue and superb narrative gifts cannot conceal the ethical rottenness that lies at the heart of The Three Musketeers. I suppose we should have expected nothing better from the ancestor of cheese-eating surrender monkeys, but M. Dumas should be ashamed of himself.

    Yes, that was supposed to be a joke; I actually admire The Three Musketeers extravagantly as political fiction, and Dumas's trick of making the Cardinal the actual hero of the book (check out his last scene with D'Artagnan) while convincing juvenile readers of all ages that he's the bad guy is really pretty impressive. (Shakespeare does the opposite trick -- much better, of course -- in Henry V, but I always admire that particular form of irony when someone brings it off.) But it is astonishing to recall an age when it was rich -- or at least nobly-born -- adolescents and young adults who made a lifestyle out of killing one another over minor affronts. Any theory that derives violence directly from deprivation needs to take that phenomenon into account.

    Posted by DeLong at February 26, 2003 07:53 PM
    Interesting eh??

    The Aussie PM used heroin as an example, only if I had my druthers of having my gun or a bag a heroin in hand when some crack junky is breaking into my house I think I’ll keep my gun! He didn’t mention that the murder/crime rate has gone up since they outlawed hand guns though did he?? Interesting??

    Heard a cop on the TV yesterday frustrated with the situation, and said that guns are strictly an offensive weapon, and pointed out the popularity of the weapon that was used, Glock 9mm?? The first thing that came to mind was , cops use guns for defense, as well as the largest majority of gun owners, and one of the reasons the Glock is so popular is because it is the weapon of choice in almost every major police force across the country?? Wonder why he left out those facts???

    Then we got the he wrote stories about death and destruction in his creative writing class, so he must have been mentally unstable??? I guess we need to lock up people like Steven King, Quentin Tarrantino, and Clive Barker?? How did we ever survive with Alfred Hitchcock walking the streets for so long?

    Seems like this guys main beef was with spoiled brats, and arrogant rich people? What better place to find those types than at a major university?? Maybe we should outlaw rich people and forbid them from reproducing, then this guy wouldn’t have gone off the deep end???

    Seems just as logical as removing more of the rights this country was based on, the rights that make us so strong, and the major reason we have never been invaded by a foreign force? I see absolutely no logic in removing guns from the hands of law abiding citizens so the only people who will be armed is the government and the criminals, the two main entities that "we the people" need to keep under control???

  3. #3
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    Re: American Gun culture

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Sixpack
    Interesting eh??

    The Aussie PM used heroin as an example, only if I had my druthers of having my gun or a bag a heroin in hand when some crack junky is breaking into my house I think I’ll keep my gun! He didn’t mention that the murder/crime rate has gone up since they outlawed hand guns though did he?? Interesting??
    Do you have a reference for that? All the statistics I've seen show that the violent crime rate went down after the tough gun restrictions were put in place. I posted them in the other 'blame an object' thread, so I won't repost it here.

  4. #4
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    Re: American Gun culture

    You'll really start hearing the statistics being shouted now. From both sides of the issue and you won't know who to believe. But the likelyhood that someone will break into your home or assault you is infantesimily low here in the US as compared to so many other ways to die or have a family member put into harms way. Most on both sides have had no experience with violence but base their stance on all of the rhetoric thrown around by their chosen political party. Few really sit down and think of the issues.

    I am probably one of the few who in fact has had an experience with my family in harms way. Does it make me an expert? No but I did completely change my stance on the issue. About thirty years ago my family and I were visiting friends in Idaho. My daughter of about nine then, woke up needing to use the bathroom. She wandered into our hosts bedroom in the dark by mistake. That was when I heard her scream. By the time I got there the host's wife was turning on her bedside lamp just as my friend was uncocking his 357 magnum revolver. He was a huge clint eastwood fan even using phrases such as, "Do you feel lucky punk?" whenever he got the chance. And just like clint, he kept the loaded handgun in his drawer next to his bed. We left and checked into a motel.

    Again, it makes me no expert on the subject but I did give up any thoughts of ever owning a handgun. I'll never be convinced that having one in your house doesn't put your family at more risk than the potential that any bad guys will do you harm.
    Last edited by bogie; 04-18-2007 at 06:57 PM.
    The terminally stupid and certifiably insane.

  5. #5
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    Re: American Gun culture

    While all the condemnation of our so called "gun culture" it needs to be pointed
    out that without that culture Europe would be goose stepping and speaking
    German!
    The problem is people who have derranged minds. Afterall, it certainly wasnt
    the fertilizers fault that Timothy McVey blew up the building....it was Timothy
    Ms and hate like that will always find a way! It wasnt the availability of
    knives that caused Jack the Ripper to slice away...he would have found
    another way to act out his twisted fantasies if knives were unavailable.
    This nutcase in VA could have easily used explosives, gotten hold of ricen,
    killed a policeman and gotten his gun. Like I say, hate like that finds a way.
    Only law abiding people are left defensless when protection is legislated
    to be unlawful.

  6. #6
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    Re: American Gun culture

    Quote Originally Posted by goodwitchofthesouth
    The problem is people who have derranged minds. Afterall, it certainly wasnt
    the fertilizers fault that Timothy McVey blew up the building....it was Timothy
    Ms and hate like that will always find a way! It wasnt the availability of
    knives that caused Jack the Ripper to slice away...he would have found
    another way to act out his twisted fantasies if knives were unavailable.
    This nutcase in VA could have easily used explosives, gotten hold of ricen,
    killed a policeman and gotten his gun. Like I say, hate like that finds a way.
    Only law abiding people are left defensless when protection is legislated
    to be unlawful.
    My friend in the story above was hardly derranged nor could he be compared with Jack the ripper or Mcveigh. But had he had a knife or furtilizer in his bedside drawer instead of a 357, my daughter would have been in much less danger.
    The terminally stupid and certifiably insane.

  7. #7
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    Re: American Gun culture

    http://www.gunsandcrime.org/auresult.html

    Based on these references;
    1. S. Mukherjee, et.al. A Statistical Profile of Crime in Australia
    (Canberra, Australia: AIC, April 1993) RPP07, Table 4.5
    2. Crime and Safety part of "Australia Now" series at Australian
    Bureau of Statistics (ABS) web site, Table 11.12
    3. "Income and Welfare: Income support programs - Dept. of
    Family & Community Services" p/o "Australia Now"
    series at ABS web site.
    4. "Crime and Justice: Expenditure on public order and safety"
    p/o "Australia Now" series at ABS web site.

    Assaults; First, it has been reported that the rate of assault has increased dramatically since the buyback.
    It is true, as claimed by gun possession advocates, that the rate has increased a lot since the ban/buyback. But the ban/buyback cannot be blamed for this since the rate was increasing at an even greater rate before the ban/buyback began. However, it is also apparent that the ban/buyback did not have a definite beneficial effect on the assault rate.


    Armed robbery; Both robbery and armed robbery appear to have stabilized (two years) at rates higher than they were before the Port Arthur incident and the ban/buyback.


    Murders; The Homicide rate when including the Port Arther incident shows a slight climb in homicides, but shows a decline in homicide by guns. Without the Port Arther incident included in the survey, both increased from 94 through 97? So I gues it all depends on which numbers you would like to refer too. The homicide rates provide no support for a proposition that the ban/buyback has helped. However, they also do not indicate that the ban/buyback caused anything, good or bad.

    Do you have any statistics past 2000 Kazza, or a reference too them? I think they would shine more light on this matter? With all that said I think my original statement is true though? The murder/crime rate did show a rise from the buyout date through to the next year? There certainly wasn’t a significant decline in crime, except in burglaries (???) however you wish to interpret the numbers immediately after the buyout??

  8. #8
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    Re: American Gun culture

    Why Do I Have The Feeling That The Next Set Of Statistics Posted Here Will Show The Exact Oposite. Arguing Statistics Is Useless.
    The terminally stupid and certifiably insane.

  9. #9
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    Re: American Gun culture

    Sorry you had a bad experience with a paranoid, looking for the first opportunity to blow someone away mentality, Bogie.

    I live 30 minute from the closest town/law enforcement office, the average call time in this area is 40-50 minute on a slow week. That's not good enough if some crazed nut job tries to break in and it has happened twice since I have been an adult. The first was put on the ground until the Calvary arrived 40 minutes after the first call, he got a concussion and tried to have me sued, he got 3-5 instead. He got off easy, I had every legal right to shoot him where he stood, the ungrateful piece of garbage?? The second was held at bay by a 12 ga shotgun with OO buck, until the sheriff's deputy arrived well over an hour after the first call to 911. He was only charged with drunkin disorderly, spent the night in jail and had to take some alcohol abuse classes?? His rich parents got all the burglary and breaking and entering charges dropped?? The local sheriff, and close friend of the perps parents, made it a point to come to my house and tell me the courts decision, and I was warned not to retaliate, or cause him any physical harm in the future or I would be arrested??? The sorry SOB done had his free pass, he tries it again and he won’t get the opportunity to let mommy and daddy bail his sorry butt out!

  10. #10
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    Re: American Gun culture

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Sixpack
    Sorry you had a bad experience with a paranoid, looking for the first opportunity to blow someone away mentality, Bogie.

    I live 30 minute from the closest town/law enforcement office, the average call time in this area is 40-50 minute on a slow week. That's not good enough if some crazed nut job tries to break in and it has happened twice since I have been an adult. The first was put on the ground until the Calvary arrived 40 minutes after the first call, he got a concussion and tried to have me sued, he got 3-5 instead. He got off easy, I had every legal right to shoot him where he stood, the ungrateful piece of garbage?? The second was held at bay by a 12 ga shotgun with OO buck, until the sheriff's deputy arrived well over an hour after the first call to 911. He was only charged with drunkin disorderly, spent the night in jail and had to take some alcohol abuse classes?? His rich parents got all the burglary and breaking and entering charges dropped?? The local sheriff, and close friend of the perps parents, made it a point to come to my house and tell me the courts decision, and I was warned not to retaliate, or cause him any physical harm in the future or I would be arrested??? The sorry SOB done had his free pass, he tries it again and he won’t get the opportunity to let mommy and daddy bail his sorry butt out!
    I also live in the sticks but not as far out as you. Let the cops hear that you might be doing an illegal drug and they're all over you but it does take forever to respond when you actually need them.

  11. #11
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    Re: American Gun culture

    Bogie;
    Why Do I Have The Feeling That The Next Set Of Statistics Posted Here Will Show The Exact Oposite. Arguing Statistics Is Useless.
    It's usually not the statistics that are in question, it's the bias manner in which they are interpreted!! Unemployment always comes to mind, as the most purposely misinterpreted statistic in America! ;)

  12. #12
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    Re: American Gun culture

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Sixpack
    Bogie;


    It's usually not the statistics that are in question, it's the bias manner in which they are interpreted!! Unemployment always comes to mind, as the most purposely misinterpreted statistic in America! ;)

    Yeah people usually don't realize that statstic usually comes from how many people are filing for unemployment or receiving unemployment and of course we all know after several months that you can no longer file.

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    Re: American Gun culture

    Quote Originally Posted by goodwitchofthesouth
    While all the condemnation of our so called "gun culture" it needs to be pointed
    out that without that culture Europe would be goose stepping and speaking
    German!
    .
    europe would be goose stepping if the US wasnt a gun culture? ahah, um, WHAT?

    the focus is on the culture of americans who think guns are the answer to their problems, not on guns themselves, although very strict gun control laws would obviously ease the problem.
    Last edited by GeneralTsoGood; 04-18-2007 at 08:45 PM.

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    Re: American Gun culture

    I also live in the sticks but not as far out as you. Let the cops hear that you might be doing an illegal drug and they're all over you but it does take forever to respond when you actually need them.
    Yep I always joke with the wife if she needs a cop, and I'm not home, to call 911, and throw a bottle of ammonia out the window, tell them she smells something weird outside & thinks somebody is cooking meth. There will be more law enforcement surrounding the place than in a Die Hard movie!!

  15. 04-18-2007, 08:46 PM


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    Re: American Gun culture

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Sixpack
    Bogie;


    It's usually not the statistics that are in question, it's the bias manner in which they are interpreted!! Unemployment always comes to mind, as the most purposely misinterpreted statistic in America! ;)

    "42.7 percent of all statistics are made up on the spot."- Larry the Cable Guy

  17. #16
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    Re: American Gun culture

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Sixpack
    Bogie;


    It's usually not the statistics that are in question, it's the bias manner in which they are interpreted!! Unemployment always comes to mind, as the most purposely misinterpreted statistic in America! ;)
    Many do share your perspective.
    The terminally stupid and certifiably insane.

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