View Poll Results: Do you know an atheist?

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25. This poll is closed
  • I know an atheist, and I believe they can be moral.

    22 88.00%
  • I know an atheist, but I don't believe they can be moral.

    2 8.00%
  • I don't know any atheists, but I believe they can be moral.

    1 4.00%
  • I don't know any atheists, and I don't believe they can be moral.

    0 0%
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  1. #65
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    Re: Do you know an atheist?

    Quote Originally Posted by enlightenme007

    I am kinda getting sick of the circular argument here,
    Then why do you continue to argue?
    Sure you can live that way on this earth, I am not disagreeing there, you are moral under your own set of morals very proud of you, but without the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ, eternal life is not promised.
    Elitist on your part.

    Maybe you can do some research on this subject, why don't you go to Texas and interview people on death row and ask them if they have lived by their own standard of morality. Ask them where it got them? and then run!
    Ah but a great many of those on death row claim to have found jesus and asked for forgiveness. According to the bible, they now go to heaven once they've paid for their crime but I must burn in hell for eternity having killed nobody ever? This is where you are elitist and I am not. I would never suggest that anything different would or should happen to you than to me.
    The terminally stupid and certifiably insane.

  2. #66
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    Re: Do you know an atheist?

    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    Elitist on your part.

    Ah but a great many of those on death row claim to have found jesus and asked for forgiveness. According to the bible, they now go to heaven once they've paid for their crime but I must burn in hell for eternity having killed nobody ever? This is where you are elitist and I am not. I would never suggest that anything different would or should happen to you than to me.
    Please read all of my posts, you have already proved that you are the one
    that is elitist - you said you were the judge of other's morality, I say God
    is the judge, thanks.

  3. #67
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    Lord_jag is offline I am God because I say I am. Prove me wrong.
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    Re: Do you know an atheist?

    Quote Originally Posted by enlightenme007
    Please read all of my posts, you have already proved that you are the one
    that is elitist - you said you were the judge of other's morality, I say God
    is the judge, thanks.
    I think bogie is saying that he lets himself judge the people he wants around him based on his own moralities.

    You let your imaginary friends tell you who you can hang out with. And you think people that don't like your imaginary friend are horrible people and want them to suffer eternal torment.

    No sir, you are elitist. Bogie is just picky.

  4. #68
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    Re: Do you know an atheist?

    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    I really think that if I had a bumper sticker on my car proclaiming my non acceptance of religion, some good christian would put my comprehensive insurance on my car to the test the next time I parked at the mall.
    Several years back there was a write-up in SKEPTICAL INQUIRER about an experiment where the researcher placed a brief survey with a self-addressed stamped envelope under the wiper of any car he could find that was decorated with a Christian fish or the Darwin fish variant. Aside from asking why they put the fish on their car, the survey also asked if the fish had ever been tampered with. Perhaps not so surprisingly, those who had a Christian fish never reported any tampering, but a truly stunning number of respondents who had Darwin fish reported that they had to buy two, three, or sometimes even four replacements because it kept getting vandalized.

    Anyway, I am an atheist, and when I took the survey at the top of the page I had to think about it more than I probably was expected to since it used the loaded term "moral," which usually has religious connotations. "Ethical" is the preferred term, and I think the debate in here degenerated rather rapidly because of that distinction. Did you mean to ask if an atheist can behave honestly and responsibly even without the constant threat of hellfire hanging over their head like the sword of Damocles, or did you wonder if atheists would grit their teeth and follow rather bizarre and restrictive social restrictions just to fit in with the Christian masses?

    What keeps an atheist honest, then, if the threat of damnation no longer exists? How about the desire to avoid prison. Or perhaps we know that doing something wrong will hurt other people. I do not find it at all coincidental that some of the most notorious murders, cannibals, sociopaths, and con-artists have professed deep religious beliefs.

    And I don't remember who made the sports comment, but it might have been George Carlin who said that you always hear the winners thanking God for their success, but you never hear any of the losers saying "I would have made that touchdown if Jesus hadn't tripped me."
    Last edited by RudyV; 04-04-2007 at 11:14 PM.

  5. #69
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    Re: Do you know an atheist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_jag
    I think bogie is saying that he lets himself judge the people he wants around him based on his own moralities.

    You let your imaginary friends tell you who you can hang out with. And you think people that don't like your imaginary friend are horrible people and want them to suffer eternal torment.

    No sir, you are elitist. Bogie is just picky.
    I'll take your word for it, you don't even know me. Look what I have reported is not my opinion it is what the Bible says, period.

    I hang out with all different people, although they have a different view than me, some that are similar to bogie and sub junk, however, I try to stay away from bitter angry people like you though.

    Just like God, I don't want anyone to suffer eternal torment, hence why I am on here talking to you.

    Judging anyone is elitist, period.

  6. #70
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    Re: Do you know an atheist?

    Quote Originally Posted by RudyV

    Anyway, I am an atheist, and when I took the survey at the top of the page I had to think about it more than I probably was expected to since it used the loaded term "moral," which usually has religious connotations. "Ethical" is the preferred term, and I think the debate in here degenerated rather rapidly because of that distinction.
    Now we are getting somewhere.

  7. #71
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    Re: Do you know an atheist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_jag
    I think bogie is saying that he lets himself judge the people he wants around him based on his own moralities.

    You let your imaginary friends tell you who you can hang out with. And you think people that don't like your imaginary friend are horrible people and want them to suffer eternal torment.

    No sir, you are elitist. Bogie is just picky.
    That's me. Picky, picky picky. Well said. My sentiments exactly.
    The terminally stupid and certifiably insane.

  8. #72
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    Lord_jag is offline I am God because I say I am. Prove me wrong.
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    Re: Do you know an atheist?

    Quote Originally Posted by enlightenme007
    I'll take your word for it, you don't even know me. Look what I have reported is not my opinion it is what the Bible says, period.

    I hang out with all different people, although they have a different view than me, some that are similar to bogie and sub junk, however, I try to stay away from bitter angry people like you though.

    Just like God, I don't want anyone to suffer eternal torment, hence why I am on here talking to you.

    Judging anyone is elitist, period.
    OIC... but its fine for you say say that your imaginary friend will judge me to eternal torment cause I don't agree with you and then try to rub everyones face in it... Nope your not elitist at all.

    I judge people by my own stadards... and I don't exclude them from a make believe paradise if they don't meet my personal standards. And I don't blame an imaginary friend for this either.

    Though I must say... that's an easy cop-out to act like an elitist jerk... "I'm not judging you... my imaginary friend is. And he'll make you pay" LOL

  9. #73
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    Re: Do you know an atheist?

    Quote Originally Posted by RudyV
    Several years back there was a write-up in SKEPTICAL INQUIRER about an experiment where the researcher placed a brief survey with a self-addressed stamped envelope under the wiper of any car he could find that was decorated with a Christian fish or the Darwin fish variant. Aside from asking why they put the fish on their car, the survey also asked if the fish had ever been tampered with. Perhaps not so surprisingly, those who had a Christian fish never reported any tampering, but a truly stunning number of respondents who had Darwin fish reported that they had to buy two, three, or sometimes even four replacements because it kept getting vandalized.

    Anyway, I am an atheist, and when I took the survey at the top of the page I had to think about it more than I probably was expected to since it used the loaded term "moral," which usually has religious connotations. "Ethical" is the preferred term, and I think the debate in here degenerated rather rapidly because of that distinction. Did you mean to ask if an atheist can behave honestly and responsibly even without the constant threat of hellfire hanging over their head like the sword of Damocles, or did you wonder if atheists would grit their teeth and follow rather bizarre and restrictive social restrictions just to fit in with the Christian masses?

    What keeps an atheist honest, then, if the threat of damnation no longer exists? How about the desire to avoid prison. Or perhaps we know that doing something wrong will hurt other people. I do not find it at all coincidental that some of the most notorious murders, cannibals, sociopaths, and con-artists have professed deep religious beliefs.

    And I don't remember who made the sports comment, but it might have been George Carlin who said that you always hear the winners thanking God for their success, but you never hear any of the losers saying "I would have made that touchdown if Jesus hadn't tripped me."
    Well said. Ethics is a much more appropriate word in this discussion. I haven't had the vandalism problem because I don't go around openly displaying my athiesm. But two of my freinds who like bumper stickers have had their cars trashed and each time the culprit professed his christianity. Gods will I suppose.
    The terminally stupid and certifiably insane.

  10. #74
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    Re: Do you know an atheist?

    Quote Originally Posted by enlightenme007
    Does that mean you are not allowed in your life?
    I won't prentend to know how to even start to answer such a question. You really do think you're making an argument worthy of a second look don't you? Geez.
    The terminally stupid and certifiably insane.

  11. #75
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    Re: Do you know an atheist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_jag
    OIC... but its fine for you say say that your imaginary friend will judge me to eternal torment cause I don't agree with you and then try to rub everyones face in it... Nope your not elitist at all.

    I judge people by my own stadards... and I don't exclude them from a make believe paradise if they don't meet my personal standards. And I don't blame an imaginary friend for this either.

    Though I must say... that's an easy cop-out to act like an elitist jerk... "I'm not judging you... my imaginary friend is. And he'll make you pay" LOL
    Dude, why don't you get it? You keep saying it is me, it is what I say, or it is my standard, you are wrong, it is not my standard, if it were up to me then I would be on your boat.
    I am stating what the Bible says about the subject, if you disagree, you don't disagree with me you disagree with God. It is not a cop-out, it is what I believe to be the truth.

  12. #76
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    Re: Do you know an atheist?

    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    I won't prentend to know how to even start to answer such a question. You really do think you're making an argument worthy of a second look don't you? Geez.
    Lighten up, that was a joke. To answer your question, as I always try and do, although I can't say that for some on here, YES.

  13. #77
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    Re: Do you know an atheist?

    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    I haven't had the vandalism problem because I don't go around openly displaying my athiesm. But two of my freinds who like bumper stickers have had their cars trashed and each time the culprit professed his christianity. Gods will I suppose.
    I, too, choose not to broadcast my atheism for the same reason. Whenever believers discover that you don't share their beliefs (people sometimes come right out and ask about my churchgoing habits, as if the question was as innocuous as asking what I do for a living) you can actually see their attitude change. Everything shifts--their body language, their facial expression...maybe they'll even take a step backwards. As if they think you're diseased, and contagious.

    The overarching problem--and they know it--is that if everyone doesn't believe, then perhaps there just might be something wrong with the belief. And they don't even want to consider that. So everyone must believe, just to preserve the status quo, even if that means resorting to some rather oppressive, irritating and nonsensical boosterism. Inserting "God" into the Pledge of Allegiance, putting "In God We Trust" on money (which were both 20th century inventions resulting from rabid anti-communism--it's not like they were ancient traditions handed down by the Founding Fathers or anything), posting the (Jewish) Ten Commandments everywhere, saying prayers before sporting events, having a moment of silence during morning announcements, etc, etc and so on to oblivion. (Ironically enough, the original untainted Pledge was written by Baptist minister Francis Bellamy, cousin of socialist writer Edward Bellamy; a year before writing it Francis was kicked out of a ministerial position because his sermons were considered too socialistic.)

    To an atheist it's all nonsensical, and if you wonder how nonsensical then just listen real hard to the next prayer you hear uttered in public, and every time you hear "God" or "Jesus" substitute in its place "Nebo" or "Helios" or "Zeus." To us it's exactly the same, since "God" has as much power over us as any of the old "dead" gods, who have effectively turned to dust only because no one believes in them any more.

    We would just like to find a place where "God" can also be added to that roll call of the dead.
    Last edited by RudyV; 04-05-2007 at 01:25 AM.

  14. 04-05-2007, 12:48 AM

    Reason
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    Reason
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  16. #78
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    Re: Do you know an atheist?

    Quote Originally Posted by enlightenme007
    This I can not agree with as no good teacher would deceive all of
    his students for eternity. If either scenario you described were true,
    then Jesus would be the chiefest offenders of what he taught.
    I think you need to read more about what Jesus actually taught.
    The golden rule is but one.
    I think that if all other teachers are teaching hatred and only you are teaching love it doesn't matter if you're lying or not so much.

    For example, recently I was comforting someone whose relative had died and I said something like "she's happy and with God now", something like that. I was lying because I don't believe in any gods but it gave her comfort. I don't think that makes me a bad friend.

    Quote Originally Posted by enlightenme007
    Oh I understand your position very clear. I don't think you understand mine, my position is that if God exists, then you have created another god to fit
    your life. I understand you don't believe, I do, and if the Bible is correct then
    you are doing exactly what I have said.
    With all due respect, I am a very self-evaluating person, and if I had anything that could be likened to a god I would know.
    There is a huge difference in believing in a god and not believing in one (or three).

    Quote Originally Posted by enlightenme007
    Christians know what morality is, that is silly, again you have not defined
    morality and without authority to define morality, then everyone's morality is different and hence there is no morality. Our CREATOR is the only one with the authority to do define morality, and He did, it's in the Bible.
    Morality is a changing thing. I realize you think your beliefs are the only correct ones, but everyone in the world also believes that.
    I believe my morals are the best ones, I'm sure bogie does about his, aegist does about his, etc. but a difference between atheists and Christians is that more often than not we realize that tolerence is the key.
    I'm sure myself, bogie and aegist all have very similar morals (because we are totally awesome people :p kidding) but there will be some differences somewhere and I accept that.
    I think morals that aren't my own are wrong, but I also accept that everyone has a right to their own morality, whether it is given by a dictator (like Saddam Hussein, that Chinese guy, or *insert name of your god here*) or by way of personal reflection.
    I can explain the logic behind my chosen morals, but I have no reason to claim mine are "universally correct", they are just my opinion.

    When people from other cultures learn of Christianity they sometimes don't accept the morals and rules it teaches, so they find another religion. In that sense, religions are reflections of you as an individual.
    You are convinced your religion of choice is correct because you happen to agree with the things it teaches (whether by childhood indoctrination or choice I'm not sure) and that is highly indicative of society's morals.

    If you were to go to, say, South-Eastern China, where there is a tribe (which has survived for thousands of years without sexual disease and where most are content with their culture) where it is "the done thing" for women to sleep with a different man every night. There is no conventional family (in fact I wrote a paper in which I debated the existence of many things in that culture) and no record is kept of who slept with who when. Women are given full power to choose. That's just the tip of the iceburg, the culture is supremely different to ours.
    In my opinion their morality isn't wrong, it's just different to my own.
    If I had been born there instead of here I would be like them, as would you. You might hear about Christianity and think it's a load of rubbish, it doesn't fit into your cultural context.
    And if by some amazing, unheard-of luck you did embrace Christianity everyone would tell you you would go to their hell if you don't re-convert to their religion, which is undoubtably in their minds the only true religion.

  17. #79
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    Re: Do you know an atheist?

    Quote Originally Posted by RudyV
    What keeps an atheist honest, then, if the threat of damnation no longer exists? How about the desire to avoid prison. Or perhaps we know that doing something wrong will hurt other people. I do not find it at all coincidental that some of the most notorious murders, cannibals, sociopaths, and con-artists have professed deep religious beliefs.

    And I don't remember who made the sports comment, but it might have been George Carlin who said that you always hear the winners thanking God for their success, but you never hear any of the losers saying "I would have made that touchdown if Jesus hadn't tripped me."
    Great post! I think atheists are so moral because our morals have been thought about and determined personally. If a Christian breaks a commandment they just ask for forgiveness and it's okay, but if an atheist breaks a moral boundary they have set themselves there's no one forgiving them, they have disappointed themselves, so what happens is that we mostly don't break those moral boundaries.

    I also think another reason atheists develop morals that are often good for society is because we don't believe in an afterlife. If there is no afterlife then this life is what really matters. We want to make this one life as good as possible, and ensure that after we are rotting in the ground the world will be a good place for future inhabitants.
    I believe that personally determining one's morals gives one a greater understanding and appreciation for other people. We tend to consider all options before we choose one, so when another person has chosen another one we can remember the reasoning we considered and it can give us a feeling of closeness with that person.

    Other people aren't wrong, they have just made different choices and that's great.

  18. #80
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    Re: Do you know an atheist?

    Quote Originally Posted by SubJunk
    For example, recently I was comforting someone whose relative had died and I said something like "she's happy and with God now", something like that. I was lying because I don't believe in any gods but it gave her comfort. I don't think that makes me a bad friend.
    That's another good reason why I tend not to discuss religion around those I might consider "fragile"--nice people who fall back to their beliefs to get them through trying times because the alternatives are too painful to consider. My mother had MS for three decades before she died and I never said a word about religion around her because I knew her own gentle beliefs were the only things that got her through every painful day.

    However, when any religion defender eventually falls back to the last-ditch argument "But religion makes people feel good," the reply will always be "And so does heroin." People need to grow a little backbone and try to get through the day without relying on such a comfortable crutch.

    People freaked out when John Lennon released "Imagine," making angry calls to the radio stations that played it because of his daring lyrics, yet thirty-six years later there are still folks walking around who would drop to the ground, go fetal, and start sucking their thumb if they truly had to imagine living their life without the constant comfort and guidance that "God" or "Jesus" gives them. What would life possibly be like if there wasn't a "Heaven" to reward the good and a "Hell" to punish the bad?

    Look out your window and you just might find it.
    Last edited by RudyV; 04-05-2007 at 03:06 AM.

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