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  1. #49
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    Re: You Give Christianity a BAD NAME.

    Quote Originally Posted by lisan23
    Just wanted to say that the name of this thread reminds me of that song from the 80's (I think it's Bon Jovi) "You give love a bad name". Man - the 80's were lame.
    Yeah, but it's a catchy tune, ain't it?
    That is exactly what I thought of when I came up with the title for the thread.

    Like the 80's, yeah pretty lame, but also very fitting with the context.
    what the heck is this crap?

  2. #50
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    Re: You Give Christianity a BAD NAME.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiseroption
    I cannot help but respect your views since your logic is extremely rational.

    A half a century ago, I started at the bottom of the scale of logic & rationale & have diligently excercised those qualities to the best of my ability. I probably felt the same way as you about how dilusional or displaced some people could be to feel the need to manufacture a perfect human being & an entity that could never be proved to anyone on this side of death.

    I was so analytical that I missed the childhood joys that can come with simple imagination, fairytales, etc...but most of all, not experiencing the innocent faith that is a natural part of being a child. I probably came out of the womb with a puzzled look of "WHAT? WHY? That entire trip made absolutely NO SENSE WHATSOEVER! Now what?"

    So essentially, at 50, what I am saying is....my life has never been logical. Accepting it as was, was never good enough for me. To do that would be to stop growing. To limit myself to only man's manifestations would be to deprive myself of what can & does exceed man by far. I now find myself with the ability to simplify what we tend to narcissistically complicate. I realize that this is the mother of all dichotomies, but the ability to simplify that in one's heart is the beginning of an eternal flame.
    You are arguing religion like I've never heard before. It's refreshing to see someone of faith really understand the meaning of religion. You've hit a home run here.

    I do not believe in God because I was instructed to. That would be the height of stupidity.
    My parents took us to church every sunday from my earliest memories until my teens. I believed in god and the bible and jesus as the son but cannot say why that was other than that's what my parents taught me and wanted me to learn. So they exposed me to the church. I cannot speak for you obviously but if religion is not a learned belief then I have no other explanation. If one grows up in a muslim household in saudi arabia the likelihood of that child becoming a muslim is very high I would think. You may think that you did not learn christianity but the reality is that all religion is passed down through history by writings and tales.
    If a man cannot feel God, then there is no god to him, but it must be awful lonely to have no one to thank at times when science can not explain an outcome or very, very cold holding that dying wife or child in your arms and merely compliant with, okay hun, it's been good and although you're worm bait now, some day we will lay side by side in that cold ground & be worm bait together. To not love enough to feel love eternally, is to not love at all.
    I actually envy the faithful of just about any religion. It would be comforting to still believe that there is something after this life. My wife is christian and attends church every sunday and I can see the joy and satisfaction that she derives from her faith. Perhaps I'm too logical for my own good but that's the way my brain works. But I have a very optomistic outlook on life regardless of my feeling that we're one day worm food. In fact sometimes I feel less urgency and anxiety than many faithful because I see myself as extremely insignificant in the whole scheme of things. The universe did fine before I was born and will do just fine when I'm gone. This attitude makes it easy for me to do the right things while I'm lucky enough to be here.

    I have never really gotten into this but will now by asking 2 questions:
    1. Is there such a thing as true altruism?
    I don't think so. I live my life trying to help anybody that I can when I can but no matter what I do for someone else, I always believe that my motive was somewhat selfish. I teach a group of underprivledged teens on a weekly basis in handball. I do it to help get the kids off the street of course which helps them and society but the reality is that it makes me feel good. My wife volunteers for a group called "Wardrobe for Opportunity" which provides women comming off welfare business attire that they can wear to job interviews. We've had many discussions about why we do these things and though she won't admit it, she gets a great deal of satisfaction when she receives an award or some other recognition at a fund raiser or something. Even the golden rule says to do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That almost sounds like payback but the reality is that it is logical. There is true altrrism though but it is extremely rare. When a marine throws his body over a hand grenade to protect his buddies, he was truely altruistic.
    2. How does an athiest explain uncontrollable laughter or tears?
    I can't explain it as an athiest. It's a biological funtion that anybody can understand having to do with chemistry and the workings of the brain and our nervous system. Anatomy is not my best subject but anything can be explained by the physical sciences. Just because we don't know the answer to some questions does not mean that the answer must be something other than scientific. That's how religion started imo. Humans can't stand not to have all the answers so over the years, some answers were made up as we went along. As long as people of faith feel that all the answers are in their teachings, they will not search for the real explanations.
    The terminally stupid and certifiably insane.

  3. #51
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    Re: You Give Christianity a BAD NAME.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quertol
    I didn't give it a biblical reference because I can't remember whether or not that it is. :D I said an old proverb.

    And what is a thump??? :confused:
    Mark Twain I think.
    The terminally stupid and certifiably insane.

  4. #52
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    Re: You Give Christianity a BAD NAME.

    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    You are arguing religion like I've never heard before. It's refreshing to see someone of faith really understand the meaning of religion. You've hit a home run here.
    My sincere thanks & mutual appreciation for truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    My parents took us to church every sunday from my earliest memories until my teens.
    Mine did not.
    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    instructed that I believed in god and the bible and jesus as the son but cannot say why that was other than that's what my parents taught me and wanted me to learn.
    I was only told that God was an entity to be greatly feared & that I must do only good for the welfare of my being, otherwise if God did not punish me with His wrath immediately, then the wrath of mom could come close. I never heard about the bible or Jesus or Mary or anybody biblical.

    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    ........ all religion is passed down through history by writings and tales.
    This is exactly my point. I had no religion passed on to me, but with respect to your statement, I was in fact, shown the behavior only. The legacy left me by my mom, was in passing on righteous behavior (although I do not even touch the skirt tail of my mom's example) and as an adult, I was shocked to find that every single lesson taught us by mom was directly out of Proverbs & the New Testament.

    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    I actually envy the faithful of just about any religion. It would be comforting to still believe that there is something after this life.
    I understand precisely where you are at in that. As I said earlier in this thread, but did not expound on, my nature deprived me of the natural joys of childhood, and as an adult, I realized in order to become a true Christian, that I had to "let go" with the childlike innocent belief, just like that of an earthly child who, without ever rationalizing how, yet has 100% faith in their biological father, that he will catch them if they jump into his arms. That is exactly the belief that I have come to have in God. I don't know how, I don't see how, I sure can't figure out "how" how, but I believe with 100% of my faith in Him, that He will catch me.

    You can look at it this way, too > Say I end up being wrong. What have I to lose? Say I end up being right. What have youto lose? That is a tacky way of putting it, but rationalize that, mull it over and apply logic and you'll see that it is very logical.

    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    Perhaps I'm too logical for my own good but that's the way my brain works.
    I can attest with full experienced certainty that while it is very wise to discern, very astute to learn, that too much logic can in fact, be against your own good.

    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    ................In fact sometimes I feel less urgency and anxiety than many faithful because I see myself as extremely insignificant in the whole scheme of things. The universe did fine before I was born and will do just fine when I'm gone. This attitude makes it easy for me to do the right things while I'm lucky enough to be here.
    As far as the universe goes, yes, it will continue with or without you or me. Insignificant though? I don't buy that. I believe that God has placed each of us exactly where we were put on this earth to grow forward, and as corporately gathered individuals, do the best we can for the welfare of His creation. I believe that for those who do this, understanding where it originates from (HIM), they will be awarded eternal peace.
    Last edited by wiseroption; 03-11-2007 at 11:51 PM. Reason: clarity
    what the heck is this crap?

  5. #53
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    Re: You Give Christianity a BAD NAME.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiseroption
    I was only told that God was an entity to be greatly feared & that I must do only good for the welfare of my being, otherwise if God did not punish me with His wrath immediately, then the wrath of mom could come close. I never heard about the bible or Jesus or Mary or anybody biblical.
    OK but you were TOLD that God was an entity.................etc. That's my point. Nobody has ever just come up with the concept of christianity or any religion without being taught, told, given a book, whatever. Perhaps the originators did but what was their motive? Power? control? Or were they delusional? Too many unanswered questions to just buy off on it.

    This is exactly my point. I had no religion passed on to me, but with respect to your statement, I was in fact, shown the behavior only. The legacy left me by my mom, was in passing on righteous behavior (although I do not even touch the skirt tail of my mom's example) and as an adult, I was shocked to find that every single lesson taught us by mom was directly out of Proverbs & the New Testament.
    Again, whether you call it "passed on'' or "shown the behavior", whatever you call it. And you go on to talk about "every single lesson taught us by mom" and then you obviously read Proverbs and the New Testament. You're just painting "being taught" with a different brush.

    You can look at it this way, too > Say I end up being wrong. What have I to lose? Say I end up being right. What have youto lose? That is a tacky way of putting it, but rationalize that, mull it over and apply logic and you'll see that it is very logical.
    There is no logic in this way of thinking. You are suggesting that just because you won't go to heaven if you don't believe in jesus as the son of god you therefor choose to believe. You have been coerced in the most obvious fashion. That's like a child feels that he must believe in santa or he'll get coal in his stocking. The reality is both you and the kid have no control over what happens either on christmas morning or when you die. And when you suggest to me that all I have to do is believe what you believe to hedge my bet............???? That in itself is coersive on your part and completely without logic. What it is is what it is no matter what you believe. You have shown exactly how a religion can indoctrinate people into believing. Fear is an excellent motivator and you surely seem to fear not having someplace like heaven to go to when you die. Because of your fear, you "hedge your bet" because you don't like the alternative. I look both ways before I cross the street because there is a potential real danger lurking. If I don't see any traffic I cross without fear. Since I have seen no heaven or hell, I can live my life without fear and use my common sense to lead my life and form my thoughts. You on the other hand have allowed fear, in this case fear of hell or at least not going to heaven, to dictate your thoughts and beliefs. You and I have a totally different concept of logic.

    I can attest with full experienced certainty that while it is very wise to discern, very astute to learn, that too much logic can in fact, be against your own good.
    Logic is logic. For my own good or not, logical thought allows one to deal with reality. You can cease to use logic if you wish because you don't like what it tells you. But that doesn't change what it's telling you. You just choose not to listen anymore and in so doing, you have given up on ever finding out what sience may eventually tell us. You see, I do not have all the answers about creation of the universe, mankind or what happens after this life as you claim to have. It's my lack of knowledge that motivates me to keep thinking. Thinking is not necessary in religion. You allready know the answers as long as you believe. Believe is a word that does not fit in science.
    As far as the universe goes, yes, it will continue with or without you or me. Insignificant though? I don't buy that. I believe that God has placed each of us exactly where we were put on this earth to grow forward, and as corporately gathered individuals, do the best we can for the welfare of His creation. I believe that for those who do this, understanding where it originates from (HIM), they will be awarded eternal peace.
    Can one not enjoy eternal peace unless he believes precisely the way you believe? That's absurd. I am one of the happiest, most peacful people I know and I'm an athiest. You continue to use your religion as a crutch. I mentioned before that you have a unique way of expressing thoghts on religion but you continue to revert back to the same cliches and concepts that all religious folks do. This idea of "believe what I believe or else" is simply not even a fair and just way to live ones life.
    The terminally stupid and certifiably insane.

  6. #54
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    Re: You Give Christianity a BAD NAME.

    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    OK but you were TOLD that God was an entity.................etc. That's my point. Nobody has ever just come up with the concept of christianity or any religion without being taught, told, given a book, whatever.
    Yes, granted, you are correct in that. Just as we were taught that blue is blue & orange is orange, but to a color blind person, color is non-exsistent. But to those of us who have the ability to see color, yes, we are influenced by aesthetics.
    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    Perhaps the originators did but what was their motive? Power? control? Or were they delusional? Too many unanswered questions to just buy off on it.
    I don't buy off on all of it either, particularly when dogma is shoved at me. I know there are errors & I am constantly seeking truth, not truth as is told by man, but spiritual truth. If it works gloriously for me, why on earth would I not want to share that, just as you share your's?

    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    Again, whether you call it "passed on'' or "shown the behavior", whatever you call it. And you go on to talk about "every single lesson taught us by mom" and then you obviously read Proverbs and the New Testament. You're just painting "being taught" with a different brush.
    You are absolutely right. Same canvas, different paint. I just had no idea while growing up that those were lessons from anyone other than my mom, but it gave more credence to the Bible since the application of them proved they were advantageous in life looooong before I knew the origin of the words. I guess you can say that that is "belief manifested logically"!

    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    There is no logic in this way of thinking. You are suggesting that just because you won't go to heaven if you don't believe in jesus as the son of god you therefor choose to believe. You have been coerced in the most obvious fashion. That's like a child feels that he must believe in santa or he'll get coal in his stocking. The reality is both you and the kid have no control over what happens either on christmas morning or when you die.
    Coerced? In the most obvious fashion? Nope. Given the full freedom of choice? Yes. Definitely. But you are absolutely correct in that we have no control over what happens or we would all change it to where we do not die at all, wouldn't we? But on the contrary, the suggestion of accepting that the disbelief or belief could be wrong, could be just that, wrong, so accepting the more pleasing circumstance seems quite logical. That is exactly the logic we use in just about every single choice we make everday.
    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    And when you suggest to me that all I have to do is believe what you believe to hedge my bet............???? That in itself is coersive on your part and completely without logic.
    My apology if you feel this way, but it is not entirely void of logic to "hedge" this way. On the contrary, as I said, that is very logical within itself. It sounds as if it is the coersion that is what bothers you most. It seems that you may be offended if you are asked to believe something on faith. Do you not do the same with a partner or child or family member who claims to love you?
    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    What it is is what it is no matter what you believe. You have shown exactly how a religion can indoctrinate people into believing. Fear is an excellent motivator and you surely seem to fear not having someplace like heaven to go to when you die. Because of your fear, you "hedge your bet" because you don't like the alternative.
    Not entirely, because I also feared the wrath of my own mother, but I held her in great reverence & love & had faith in her. I knew she loved me beyond all other people on this earth, even if her disciplinary procedures seemed hard sometimes. That is how I feel about God's love.
    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    I look both ways before I cross the street because there is a potential real danger lurking. If I don't see any traffic I cross without fear.
    I do not limit my vision peripherally, I also check upward & downward & then I will cross, but I have no fear because I am evenstill constantly checking for that surprise traffic while I am crossing.
    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    Since I have seen no heaven or hell, I can live my life without fear and use my common sense to lead my life and form my thoughts. You on the other hand have allowed fear, in this case fear of hell or at least not going to heaven, to dictate your thoughts and beliefs.
    I have not seen other galaxies, but I believe them to exist. I have not seen the core of the planet Jupiter, but I believe it to exist. I have not visualized the emotions of my heart in any form other than ethereal, but I know them to exist.
    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    You and I have a totally different concept of logic.
    You have not convinced me that we are that far off the page from one another regarding logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    Logic is logic. For my own good or not, logical thought allows one to deal with reality. You can cease to use logic if you wish because you don't like what it tells you. But that doesn't change what it's telling you. You just choose not to listen anymore and in so doing, you have given up on ever finding out what sience may eventually tell us. You see, I do not have all the answers about creation of the universe, mankind or what happens after this life as you claim to have. It's my lack of knowledge that motivates me to keep thinking. Thinking is not necessary in religion. You allready know the answers as long as you believe. Believe is a word that does not fit in science.
    Can you use logic in determining why your partner likes the color of your eyes or the way you may coyly look out of them at times? Can you use logic in even reasoning why she loves you or believes you when you tell her that you love her?
    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    Can one not enjoy eternal peace unless he believes precisely the way you believe? That's absurd. I am one of the happiest, most peacful people I know and I'm an athiest. You continue to use your religion as a crutch.
    Religion is not my crutch. If I lean on anything for support, it is only the love of God, but for the rest, I apply logic.
    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    I mentioned before that you have a unique way of expressing thoghts on religion but you continue to revert back to the same cliches and concepts that all religious folks do. This idea of "believe what I believe or else" is simply not even a fair and just way to live ones life.
    Are you not doing precisely that? I am not enforcing my way or else. I do not know your eternal condition, nor do I know mine. I only know that according to what I am reading from you, I believe that you and I actually do exercise our lives very, very much in a like manner & we are both passionate about learning truth, but I believe that you exercise faith more than you may be aware. You may paint that with a different brush, too.

    Since I do not know you, I believe in faith, that you read what I have written with pensive skill. Do you not have that same faith in me?

  7. #55
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    Re: You Give Christianity a BAD NAME.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiseroption
    Yes, granted, you are correct in that. Just as we were taught that blue is blue & orange is orange, but to a color blind person, color is non-exsistent. But to those of us who have the ability to see color, yes, we are influenced by aesthetics. I don't buy off on all of it either, particularly when dogma is shoved at me. I know there are errors & I am constantly seeking truth, not truth as is told by man, but spiritual truth. If it works gloriously for me, why on earth would I not want to share that, just as you share your's?
    But I don't expect to share beliefs. I don't have beliefs. The word is never used in science or logic.
    I guess you can say that that is "belief manifested logically"!
    An oxymoron if I've ever heard one.

    Coerced? In the most obvious fashion? Nope. Given the full freedom of choice? Yes. Definitely. But you are absolutely correct in that we have no control over what happens or we would all change it to where we do not die at all, wouldn't we? But on the contrary, the suggestion of accepting that the disbelief or belief could be wrong, could be just that, wrong, so accepting the more pleasing circumstance seems quite logical.[/quote]Once again, there is no logic in this statement. I suspect that our definitions of logice vary greatly, you and I.
    It sounds as if it is the coersion that is what bothers you most. It seems that you may be offended if you are asked to believe something on faith.
    Not at all offended. This is simply a discussion. I am greatly turned of, though, to religion because of this attitude of believe as I do or else.
    I have not seen other galaxies, but I believe them to exist. I have not seen the core of the planet Jupiter, but I believe it to exist.
    See? I don't believe those things exist. That's the point. I do feel that the idea that they exist is a plausable explanation so I accept the concept that they exist. But I believe nothing.
    I have not visualized the emotions of my heart in any form other than ethereal, but I know them to exist.
    Completly and utterly wrong. The heart is a four chamber, dual action pump and it's purpose is to provide hydraulic pressure used to circulate blood throughout the vascular system. Emotions do not come from the heart.
    You have not convinced me that we are that far off the page from one another regarding logic.
    I guess here we must agree to disagree.

    Can you use logic in determining why your partner likes the color of your eyes or the way you may coyly look out of them at times? Can you use logic in even reasoning why she loves you or believes you when you tell her that you love her?
    No. Logic does not even come into play here. I must take her word for it.
    Religion is not my crutch. If I lean on anything for support, it is only the love of God, but for the rest, I apply logic. Are you not doing precisely that?
    Not in the least. Again, we have different definitions of the word "logic."
    I am not enforcing my way or else. I do not know your eternal condition, nor do I know mine. I only know that according to what I am reading from you, I believe that you and I actually do exercise our lives very, very much in a like manner & we are both passionate about learning truth, but I believe that you exercise faith more than you may be aware. You may paint that with a different brush, too.
    Nope. I've no faith. Similar to beliefs, faith doesn't work for me. I don't have faith that the sun will rise tomorrow. There is a great deal of history and evidence that the sun will indeed rise but it has nothing to do with faith. It sounds as though we do lead our lives both in a moral and ethical way as you suggest. That's one reason that I will never buy off on religion. If I spend my time on this earth caring for all living things without hurting anybody then I deserve every reward that you do when I die. But you don't see it that way. The christian position is that I believe like you do, that jesus is the son of god, or I burn in hell for eternity. I keep thinking about a Nazi concentration camp guard leading a jewish family to the gas chambers in Auswich in 1944. We would all agree that the guard is commiting a great wrong but all he needs to do to get to heaven is ask god for forgiveness because he and you think that jesus died for our sins. The jewish family will burn in hell for eternity though because they do not accept jesus as the son of god. Sick.

    Since I do not know you, I believe in faith, that you read what I have written with pensive skill. Do you not have that same faith in me?[/QUOTE]
    Last edited by bogie; 03-23-2007 at 05:35 AM.
    The terminally stupid and certifiably insane.

  8. #56
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    Re: You Give Christianity a BAD NAME.

    the above post is really screwed up because this stupid site would not let me correct it.
    The terminally stupid and certifiably insane.

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    Re: You Give Christianity a BAD NAME.

    I think I understand your post, regardless of the site issues. However, I must say the frustration of these ongoing site problems are making me lean toward going on hiatus from here until they get it cleared up.

    If I do in fact understand you, I am understanding that plain & simple, you believe nothing that you personally have not seen or touched. However, you can accept the notion of certain things that you have not personally witnessed, if their existence is plausible through science & rational reasoning.
    Am I right in that understanding?

    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    I am greatly turned of, though, to religion because of this attitude of believe as I do or else.
    Please don't be with me (turned off), because this is definitely not my attitude. I suppose as with all individuals, we tend to modify our notions of what is ideally right and mine are definitely modified from that of the atypical christian. I hope that I would NEVER tell anyone to believe as I do or else.

    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    The heart is a four chamber, dual action pump and it's purpose is to provide hydraulic pressure used to circulate blood throughout the vascular system. Emotions do not come from the heart.I guess here we must agree to disagree.
    Actually, I will agree with you. That was a misused term by me, but the feelings a person has for another is very real (when you feel them), but regardless of the origin, they can not be materially substantiated.

    About the love of your wife-
    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    No. Logic does not even come into play here. I must take her word for it.
    This has me confused as to what the difference is between taking someone's word or believing them.
    I suppose she has proven her love through her actions and in that, you would reason her feelings are true, correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    If I spend my time on this earth caring for all living things without hurting anybody then I deserve every reward that you do when I die.
    But you don't see it that way.
    Actually, I do see it that way. I do believe that you would be as deserving. I just "believe" that there is a greater being responsible for giving us the ability to carry those actions out and until the day that mere man can create life out of thin air, with no medical tools, no chemical substance, absolutely nothing but the hands on the ends of his arms, I will always believe that there is a greater being in charge of humanity, but I do not claim to know where, when, or how, just that He is.
    Quote Originally Posted by bogie
    .....a Nazi concentration camp guard leading a jewish family to the gas chambers in Auswich in 1944. We would all agree that the guard is commiting a great wrong but all he needs to do to get to heaven is ask god for forgiveness because he and you think that jesus died for our sins. The jewish family will burn in hell for eternity though because they do not accept jesus as the son of god. Sick.
    Agreed, entirely sick. I can not believe this way either. Some things (like this) are far beyond my limited ability to reason & in things of this nature, I leave to the care of the powers greater than I. If I should be wrong, then so be it, I have no more to lose than you do and neither does anyone, including the Nazi Camp Guard who led the family to the chamber.

    I truly do respect what you have to say and get a lot out of your input. Thanks & I look forward to many more (when this site gets these stupid kinks ironed out)

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    Re: You Give Christianity a BAD NAME.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiseroption
    If I do in fact understand you, I am understanding that plain & simple, you believe nothing that you personally have not seen or touched. However, you can accept the notion of certain things that you have not personally witnessed, if their existence is plausible through science & rational reasoning.
    Am I right in that understanding?
    Yes. Belief involves a feeling that you know something simply because it is or were told that it is or that there is no other explanations so maybe this is so. Doesn't work for me. Obviously I don't need to touch or otherwise experience everything for it to be plausible for me. And because something is highly plausible to me does not mean that I have knowledge. In fact the older I get the less I realize that I realy know. But that's how science works. Nothing in science is ever really proven. There are just explanations that make sense and others that don't.

    Please don't be with me (turned off), because this is definitely not my attitude.
    I never would. I'm here to discuss issues. Unlike many here, I can do that without attacking with the person that I am debating.
    I hope that I would NEVER tell anyone to believe as I do or else.
    Ok but the issue is christianity, not personal feelings or actions. My wife is a wonderful person but even she is distressed that I won't be in heaven with her because of what christianity has taught her all these years. This is one reason that I am so against religion. She has this elitist mentallity whether or not she means to. It's what the bible says so it must be so. I honestly think that every christian is deep down afraid of death because of the possibility that they may not get to heaven or that it's possible that heaven doesn't exist. Although I don't want to die, I know that someday that I will so I can live this life without that anxiety. I think that religion has done all of you a disservice.

    Actually, I will agree with you. That was a misused term by me, but the feelings a person has for another is very real (when you feel them), but regardless of the origin, they can not be materially substantiated.
    That was just me being a wise a$$. :D I realize you know how a heart works.

    About the love of your wife- This has me confused as to what the difference is between taking someone's word or believing them.
    I suppose she has proven her love through her actions and in that, you would reason her feelings are true, correct?
    I'll give a little on this one. I suppose I do believe her when she says she loves me. She's the only one who would really know. When I talk about belief, I am refering to believing a fact simply because it has been told that it is so. Yes I believe my wife when she says that she loves me, but I often hear from her and others that in order to believe the things written in the bible you just have to believe it's so. No one can give me any explanation other than "you just have to believe". Just doesn't work for me especially when a specific event such as the ark comes up. It's not good enough for me that you believe it to be true so I must believe it too. I need for someone to tell me how two of every animal in the world were put into a boat that could be built out of wood so many thousands of years ago when a Nimitz class aircraft carrier couldn't hold them all today and that's the biggest ship ever built. And if god was everything he's suppose to be and can do anything then he could have every person on earth believing in him by simply doing something like parting the pacific ocean. Think about it. That would open up a whole new science. How does god work?

    Actually, I do see it that way. I do believe that you would be as deserving.
    That's the point. I would be deserving but too bad, I didn't accept the lord as my savior so I'm out of luck.
    I just "believe" that there is a greater being responsible for giving us the ability to carry those actions out and until the day that mere man can create life out of thin air, with no medical tools, no chemical substance, absolutely nothing but the hands on the ends of his arms, I will always believe that there is a greater being in charge of humanity, but I do not claim to know where, when, or how, just that He is.
    There ya go. What can I say to that. You don't know where, when or how but since you don't know, you must believe. I need to know the where, when and how. And who knows. Man has only been on this earth for half a million years as a being of advanced intelligence. The universe is about 13.75 billion years old and there's every reason to believe it will go on for quite some time. Pleanty of time to possibly see the day "that mere man can create life out of thin air, with no medical tools, no chemical substance, absolutely nothing but the hands on the ends of his arms." Like I said before; sit tight. We're only getting started. A hundred years ago man had not left the ground. Six decades later we landed on the moon and now contemplate mars.
    Agreed, entirely sick. I can not believe this way either. Some things (like this) are far beyond my limited ability to reason & in things of this nature, I leave to the care of the powers greater than I. If I should be wrong, then so be it, I have no more to lose than you do and neither does anyone, including the Nazi Camp Guard who led the family to the chamber.
    Yeah but that's what your religion thinks whether or not you buy off on it. I would think that if there are some parts of the bible that you take issue with then you might rethink other parts too. The bible hangs on the credibility of those who wrote it. It's not unlike a witness in a court room. Once the credibility of the witness is shot to hell, a juror must consider whether anything he says is true.

    I truly do respect what you have to say and get a lot out of your input. Thanks & I look forward to many more (when this site gets these stupid kinks ironed out)
    Likewise.
    Last edited by bogie; 03-24-2007 at 07:14 AM.
    The terminally stupid and certifiably insane.

  11. #59
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    Re: You Give Christianity a BAD NAME.

    Hey, everything seems to be working. Maybe there is a god.
    The terminally stupid and certifiably insane.

  12. #60
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    Re: You Give Christianity a BAD NAME.

    Without quoting your individual responses, I will simply sum this up by saying;

    This morning while driving into the office, I thought on this for a long time (oh, about 38 miles worth of thinking -which equals about 45 mins). I came to the conclusion that I too, sometimes have my doubts & wondered if deep down inside of every intelligent, & I repeat intelligent christian (come on, lets leave the oxymorons alone now), but if every intelligent person who claims to believe in God, has slight doubts at times, like I do because you see, I am the most torn of the species.......at times my heart seems to be so happy, so peaceful & so contented that it is beyond rationale comprehension & inevitabley, these are the moments that I am focused on the gospel according to Jesus, or the moments that I am in prayer, or exercising the words of the Bible. However, when my natural state kicks in to play, the analytical me, inevitabley I gradually work right out of that state of bliss & into moments of doubt & concern. Unlike most, who become more narrow-minded with age, it happens more often as I get older & I am in an extremely secure lifestyle. I am sure this board is chock-full of christians who will say that I am in fact, NOT a christian if I ever think that way, but if they are 100% honest with themselves, they are either that way also or they simply don't think much for themselves.

    So perhaps you are very accurate in that religion or expectations of christianity promotes misery. The word you have used repeatedly -"FEAR"-.....that is definitely the key word here & yes, I admit that I have fears, but I am equally as excited about the advancement of science & technology, so that.... my friend.... is the impasse that I seem to be imrisoned between. I have learned behavior modification so that I do not fall as easily victim to the perils of science, such as medical issues relating to physical health, & I am constantly learning to modify my mental interests so that I may reap the benefits of all the advancement that humanity has to offer, but I have yet to overcome the fear of "the unknown". THAT is precisely where people like me......people who passionately appreciate science, but are too chicken stinky to be the pioneer of it builds their prison.

    Someday, I expect to look out over these prison walls & what I see will be beyond human description, because the simplicity of it all will blind me & burn me & I will realize......., someone else was right all along & it was no one that I ever spoke to- Now THAT my friend, is the epitome of all fears.

  13. #61
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
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    3,578

    Re: You Give Christianity a BAD NAME.

    Quote Originally Posted by pawnstar
    and you are just another "kid" moron who is trying to play with the big boys.
    go back to your sand box til you know what you are talking about.
    LOLOL.... pawnstar, a self-loathing pawnshop employee with the mental capacity of a slug considers himself one of the "big boys"! That's hilarious! :D
    Pawnstar has less worth than the sh!t stuck to his anal hairs.... don't pay him any attention, he will slither back into the sewer from whence he came.

  14. #62
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
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    Re: You Give Christianity a BAD NAME.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiseroption
    Without quoting your individual responses, I will simply sum this up by saying;

    This morning while driving into the office, I thought on this for a long time (oh, about 38 miles worth of thinking -which equals about 45 mins). I came to the conclusion that I too, sometimes have my doubts & wondered if deep down inside of every intelligent, & I repeat intelligent christian (come on, lets leave the oxymorons alone now), but if every intelligent person who claims to believe in God, has slight doubts at times, like I do because you see, I am the most torn of the species.......at times my heart seems to be so happy, so peaceful & so contented that it is beyond rationale comprehension & inevitabley, these are the moments that I am focused on the gospel according to Jesus, or the moments that I am in prayer, or exercising the words of the Bible. However, when my natural state kicks in to play, the analytical me, inevitabley I gradually work right out of that state of bliss & into moments of doubt & concern. Unlike most, who become more narrow-minded with age, it happens more often as I get older & I am in an extremely secure lifestyle. I am sure this board is chock-full of christians who will say that I am in fact, NOT a christian if I ever think that way, but if they are 100% honest with themselves, they are either that way also or they simply don't think much for themselves.

    So perhaps you are very accurate in that religion or expectations of christianity promotes misery. The word you have used repeatedly -"FEAR"-.....that is definitely the key word here & yes, I admit that I have fears, but I am equally as excited about the advancement of science & technology, so that.... my friend.... is the impasse that I seem to be imrisoned between. I have learned behavior modification so that I do not fall as easily victim to the perils of science, such as medical issues relating to physical health, & I am constantly learning to modify my mental interests so that I may reap the benefits of all the advancement that humanity has to offer, but I have yet to overcome the fear of "the unknown". THAT is precisely where people like me......people who passionately appreciate science, but are too chicken stinky to be the pioneer of it builds their prison.

    Someday, I expect to look out over these prison walls & what I see will be beyond human description, because the simplicity of it all will blind me & burn me & I will realize......., someone else was right all along & it was no one that I ever spoke to- Now THAT my friend, is the epitome of all fears.
    If you ever do figure it all out, let the rest of us know. :)
    The terminally stupid and certifiably insane.

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