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  1. #1
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    (near) light speed travel

    Quote Originally Posted by kazza
    Its probably not something many people would want to do. If you can travel to another star at the speed of light, then for you, the passenger, the journey takes no time at all.

    However, say you leave your family back home, and travel to a star 50 light years away, turn around and come back, all at the speed of light. For you the journey has taken no time at all (except for the speeding up and slowing down bits when you got to the planet). But when you get back to Earth 100 years will have passed and all your loved ones will be dead and buried.

    (and travelling faster than light, if we ever manage it, is going to give us all sorts of problems with causality, but we'll let the philosphers worry about that :))
    This deserves a new topic as I have never had some questions answered.

    In physics, the speed on an obect is always in reference to another object. A fixed, permanent object that never moves. It doesn't even need to be an objact, just a point in space.

    For instance, if you throw a ball from a moving train, you are using the surface of the earth as a reference, but the entire earth is spinning around the sun, spinning around the galaxy, ripping though the universe.

    So when we talk about light speed, you used the earth as a frame of refernce so the people on the ship were moving away from the earth. What about the people on the spaceship. They would percieve the entire universe moving around them and think that they are not moving at all. They would see themselves not moving, but the earth moving away and then coming back.

    So who experiences the temperal shift? Perhaps the people on earth who are moving away from the shuttle experience no time passing, but the people on the craft get it turned around when they are in their 70s and autopilot stops it in time for people on earth to see rotting 120 year old corpses onboard.

    What is the universal point of reference that we can use to say "This object is moving at the speed of light and this object is not?"

  2. #2
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    Re: (near) light speed travel

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_jag

    So who experiences the temperal shift?
    The one who accelerates ages more slowly as compared to the one who did not. Not only that but, relative to his counterpart on Earth, his mass increased and length, in the direction of travel, shortened. However, to the space traveler, nothing appears different.
    Last edited by phlipper; 02-22-2007 at 07:13 PM.

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    Re: (near) light speed travel

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_jag
    This deserves a new topic as I have never had some questions answered.

    In physics, the speed on an obect is always in reference to another object. A fixed, permanent object that never moves. It doesn't even need to be an objact, just a point in space.

    For instance, if you throw a ball from a moving train, you are using the surface of the earth as a reference, but the entire earth is spinning around the sun, spinning around the galaxy, ripping though the universe.

    So when we talk about light speed, you used the earth as a frame of refernce so the people on the ship were moving away from the earth. What about the people on the spaceship. They would percieve the entire universe moving around them and think that they are not moving at all. They would see themselves not moving, but the earth moving away and then coming back.

    So who experiences the temperal shift? Perhaps the people on earth who are moving away from the shuttle experience no time passing, but the people on the craft get it turned around when they are in their 70s and autopilot stops it in time for people on earth to see rotting 120 year old corpses onboard.

    What is the universal point of reference that we can use to say "This object is moving at the speed of light and this object is not?"
    Ahh, the age old twin paradox (ok, not age old, 101 years old). Yeah, Phlipper is correct, special relativity alone isn't enough to solve this problem, it actually requires general relativity, which is a hell of a lot more complicated (I have seen some solutions using special rel in interesting ways, but they're not convincing).

    But you can see that the problem is asymmetrical. The people on the spaceship experience a force as they change direction, so they would be pushed against one side of the ship, just like you are thrown forward when you hit the brakes on your car. The people on Earth don't experience that.

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    Re: (near) light speed travel

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_jag

    What is the universal point of reference that we can use to say "This object is moving at the speed of light and this object is not?"
    once an PERSON reaches light speed!?who says there is any movement at all!?(psycologically!?)TIME defined as eternal realized at last!?dont fall for it unless they pay you!?and then......demand a raise!?all explained in my new book!?HOW TO GET TO THE TOP WITHOUT WHINING OR WAITING!?released on perfumed toilet paper!?covenient AND useful!?hehe!!...just askin
    Last edited by lexx; 02-23-2007 at 04:01 AM.

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    Re: (near) light speed travel

    Quote Originally Posted by lexx
    once an PERSON reaches light speed!?who says there is any movement at all!?(psycologically!?)TIME defined as eternal realized at last!?dont fall for it unless they pay you!?and then......demand a raise!?hehe!!...just askin
    Since you asked, the more you accelerate, the more energy is needed to attain a similar velocity change. In other words, the more you accelerate, the more your mass, the more your mass, the more energy it takes to accelerate you. It becomes a very vicious cycle....grrrr. This effect is non-trivial at relativistic velocities(close to the speed of light). The velocity of light is unattainable by a human or any other matter.

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    Re: (near) light speed travel

    Quote Originally Posted by phlipper
    This effect is non-trivial at relativistic velocities(close to the speed of light).
    i dont get this statement!?extrapolate!?hehe!!....just askin....

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    Re: (near) light speed travel

    Quote Originally Posted by lexx
    i dont get this statement!?extrapolate!?hehe!!....just askin....
    OK, Lexx. Try this. The harder you try, the harder it is to attain. Like women.

  8. #8
    Lord_jag's Avatar
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    Re: (near) light speed travel

    Quote Originally Posted by kazza
    Ahh, the age old twin paradox (ok, not age old, 101 years old). Yeah, Phlipper is correct, special relativity alone isn't enough to solve this problem, it actually requires general relativity, which is a hell of a lot more complicated (I have seen some solutions using special rel in interesting ways, but they're not convincing).

    But you can see that the problem is asymmetrical. The people on the spaceship experience a force as they change direction, so they would be pushed against one side of the ship, just like you are thrown forward when you hit the brakes on your car. The people on Earth don't experience that.
    Ok so if two objects move away from each other at half the speed of light each, now which one gets the temperal shift as they will witness the other moving at the speed of light. Or if they go 3/4 the speed of light each (concievable by theory) then they would percieve the other going faster right?

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    Re: (near) light speed travel

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_jag
    Ok so if two objects move away from each other at half the speed of light each, now which one gets the temperal shift as they will witness the other moving at the speed of light.
    They won't notice the temporal shift until they come to rest again. It will depend on who was doing the accelerating. If, for example, they each accelerated away from earth in opposite directions, and then both stopped again, the problem would be symmetrical and they would both be the same age. They would both be younger than someone on Earth though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_jag
    Or if they go 3/4 the speed of light each (concievable by theory) then they would percieve the other going faster right?
    Nope, because a bunch of stuff happens. First, the rate at which time passes changes for each observer, and also, distances change. As you speed up in a particular direction, all lengths in that direction become smaller, so you are travelling a shorter distance. (in other words, both space and time change as you approach the speed of light).

    The two velocities, call them u & v, can not be added together regularly. You need to use the formula

    u+v/(1+u*v/c^2)

    from memory I think thats it, where c=speed of light. So if each is travelling at 0.75c in opposite directions with respect to some inertial reference frame, they will see the other receeding at 0.96c

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    Re: (near) light speed travel

    Why would anybody ever age differently? If a star is 50 light years away and you fly there and back at the speed of light, then you would age 100 years and so would everyone else on earth. What would cause the 100 year trip to be instant for the traveler?

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    Re: (near) light speed travel

    2 reflections on the subject!?at the speed of light you do not age!?and the speed of light is not a speed!?but a separate state/existance!?of/in mind/space!?have you ever had a dream where it seemed to be hours/days but upon checking clock was only minutes!?hehe!!....just askin...
    Last edited by lexx; 03-26-2007 at 12:35 PM.

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    Re: (near) light speed travel

    http://physics.gmu.edu/~e-physics/bob/tachyons.htm
    "Ethics" is simply a last-gasp attempt by deist conservatives and
    orthodox dogmatics to keep humanity in ignorance and obscurantism,
    through the well tried fermentation of fear, the fear of science and
    new technologies.
    There is nothing glorious about what our ancestors call history,
    it is simply a succession of mistakes, intolerances and violations.

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    Re: (near) light speed travel

    Quote Originally Posted by Drizzt
    Why would anybody ever age differently? If a star is 50 light years away and you fly there and back at the speed of light, then you would age 100 years and so would everyone else on earth. What would cause the 100 year trip to be instant for the traveler?
    Imagine I a shoot a paintball at you, say its travelling at 100km/h.

    If you were in your car driving towards me at 100km/h, that paintball hits you at 200km/h.

    If you were in a car driving away from me at 60km/h, it only hits you at 40km/h.


    Now, lets change the paintball to a beam of light.

    If you are in a car driving towards me at half the speed of light, the beam passes you at 300,000 km/s.

    If you are in a car driving away from at half the speed of light, the beam passes you at 300,000 km/s.

    If you are standing still, the beam passes you at 300,000km/s.


    Why? Thats just the way the universe is, it wasn't derived from any principle, people just started measuring the speed of light and noticed that it is always the same. Because of that, a bunch of stuff happens, like time slowing down.

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    Re: (near) light speed travel

    Or going so fast, that you go in reverse, as in post 12....
    "Ethics" is simply a last-gasp attempt by deist conservatives and
    orthodox dogmatics to keep humanity in ignorance and obscurantism,
    through the well tried fermentation of fear, the fear of science and
    new technologies.
    There is nothing glorious about what our ancestors call history,
    it is simply a succession of mistakes, intolerances and violations.

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    Re: (near) light speed travel

    Quote Originally Posted by enlightenment
    Or going so fast, that you go in reverse, as in post 12....
    I'm afraid I don't know much about tachyons except that (so far) they are only theoretical constructs, there isn't any experimental evidence in support of them yet. There do appear to be loopholes in the lightspeed limit though, for example the waves that make up a wavepacket travel faster than c, even though the wavepacket itself is travelling at less than c. In theory if any information were to travel faster than the speed of light it would violate causality, but so far we have no way to test this.
    Last edited by kazza; 03-27-2007 at 05:55 PM.

  16. #16

    Re: (near) light speed travel

    (Scam.com) The future is about to change. The inventor, who wishes to remain anonymous says, “He has created a mankind first based on common day physics used by many.” He further states, ”The propulsion application is a first and a patent has been filed. There is no information on the World Wide Web or any other source of publication on this future invention. Even my patent application and patent will not be published at my request.”

    This is what is known. Present day Oberth technology used by NASA and others can be classified as an antiquated propulsion technology which hits ~ 25k miles/hr. max (.00378 % of c, c=186,000 miles/sec) and has a very limited travel distance. Space travelers using Oberth technology would see the time needed to travel to Alpha Centauri our closest neighboring galaxy taking hundreds if not thousands of years.

    The inventor says, “Even if my propulsion hits 50 % of light speed that is ~ 330,000,000 miles/hr. there is plenty of room to learn and grow towards 99.9 % the speed of light (c=670,616,629.384 mile per hour). This would mean travel to Mars in weeks not years and travel to Alpha Centauri in 5 to 10 years. The possibility for space colonization, space mining, and space travel would be limitless. Forget about the low earth orbit joy trips now being offered by space tourism companies. Mankind could find itself doing what it does best, exploring. There will be many new Columbus and Lewis and Clarks types blazing trails discovering new worlds determining mankind’s existence”.

    The cost of such disruptive technology must be out of this world. Nothing could be further from the truth. The cost per pound for current Chemical Rocket technology is $ 2,000 to $ 10,000 dollars per launch. This generally runs into hundreds of millions of dollars per launch as verified by NASA. The launch cost per pound for components of the NLS Spaceship to Low Earth Orbit would have the same current or lower cost. The NLS components launched to LEO would used to build the spaceship. Something like the TV program Star Trek’s Enterprise.

    The NLS propulsion technology has been peer reviewed by several physicists as being valid technology following Newton’s and Einstein’s laws using invariant mass propulsion.

    Present Day Solid Rocket Exhaust is 1,000 to 4,000 m/s with 10^3 to 10^7 N thrust and a firing duration of minutes.

    The Proposed NLS Propulsion Exhaust is 300,000,000 m/s with 10^3 to 10^9 N thrust and a firing duration of years - decades.

    Estimated cost for Space Shuttle is hundreds of billions of dollars with $ 500 million per launch and $ 50 million per month to maintain the shuttle program ending around 2012.

    Estimated cost for NLS Space Ship is hundreds of millions of dollars with $ 200 million per launch and $ 2 million per month with no program termination in man’s existence.

    Forward thinking aerospace companies who are interested in the future of space travel may contact the inventor. A trade secret agreement will be required of all parties interested.

    CONTACT INFORMATION
    the inventor
    NLS Propulsion
    nlspropulsion@pacbell.net

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