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  1. #1
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    Is Israel Proof of God?

    On this forum, there has been considerable discussion about evidence for God. Is there evidence?

    Here are some proofs for God.

    1. The Bible, originated by Jews, who claimed to be the Lord's chosen people, predicts the establishment of Israel.

    2. As predicted by the Old Testament, Jews have been persecuted by all nations of the world. They have also made positive contributions to history and culture.

    4. As prophesied, Jews were dispersed throughout the world and then returned to the "promised land."

    5. After being established in 1948, Arab nations attacked Israel hoping to destroy the Jewish state. Some of those wars were fought against overwhelming odds (1948 Arab-Israeli war, six-day war, Yom Kippur war).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_involving_Israel

    Apparently, God has protected Israel from it's enemies.

    Islamic terrorists have attacked Jews with rockets and suicide bombings. Seeking world support to destroy the Jewish state, as predicted by biblical prophets, Palestinians seeks to take Israel for their homeland.

    Despite wars and continual attacks, Israel has survived and prospered.

    What do you think?
    Last edited by Cnance; 03-05-2013 at 07:54 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: Is Israel Proof of God?

    Proof of God is in you.

    I'm thinking some can just feel it easily and some have a very difficult time.

    I'm telling you it can be there with no doubts.

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    Re: Is Israel Proof of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    Me thinks you like grasping at straws and martyrdom.
    You don't think Israel is important?

    Are you anti-Semitic?

    Is Israel proof of God?
    Last edited by Cnance; 03-05-2013 at 10:57 PM.

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    Re: Is Israel Proof of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    You don't think Israel is important?

    Are you anti-Semitic?

    Is Israel proof of God?
    i would say the SHORT answer is NO!? lots of races/beliefs/cultures have survived extinction from many causes!? ::crazy1::judges::
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    Re: Is Israel Proof of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by lexx View Post
    i would say the SHORT answer is NO!? lots of races/beliefs/cultures have survived extinction from many causes!? ::crazy1::judges::
    Even so, how many of those other races and cultures continue with a particular religion intact. It seems that Jews are unique to the world. I know of no other religious group that has been persecuted for thousands of years. Then, there's Israel's military victories against overwhelming odds. I suppose you can claim they're just smart, lucky people, but that doesn't compute. I've studied battles between Arab nations and Israel. It's difficult to conclude it was just skill and luck.

    In a raid against Iraq's nuclear facilities, Pilots commented on how perfect the attack had been, as if God had protected them all the way. Not one single missile or airplane intercepted them. War records don't lie. Israel's battle successes and low fatality rates clearly shows fabulous victories, even when odds are against them. Is God on their side?

  6. #6
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    Re: Is Israel Proof of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    On this forum, there has been considerable discussion about evidence for God. Is there evidence?

    Here are some proofs for God.

    1. The Bible, originated by Jews, who claimed to be the Lord's chosen people, predicts the establishment of Israel.



    2. As predicted by the Old Testament, Jews have been persecuted by all nations of the world. They have also made positive contributions to history and culture.

    4. As prophesied, Jews were dispersed throughout the world and then returned to the "promised land."

    5. After being established in 1948, Arab nations attacked Israel hoping to destroy the Jewish state. Some of those wars were fought against overwhelming odds (1948 Arab-Israeli war, six-day war, Yom Kippur war).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_involving_Israel

    Apparently, God has protected Israel from it's enemies.

    Islamic terrorists have attacked Jews with rockets and suicide bombings. Seeking world support to destroy the Jewish state, as predicted by biblical prophets, Palestinians seeks to take Israel for their homeland.

    Despite wars and continual attacks, Israel has survived and prospered.

    What do you think?

    I think you don't think.
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    "I have read the bible...more than once. I was not impressed nor was I so moved to give up my ability to think for myself and surrender my knowledge of facts for the unfounded belief in a mythical sky-fairy." - Me.

  7. #7
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    Re: Is Israel Proof of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    On this forum, there has been considerable discussion about evidence for God. Is there evidence?

    Here are some proofs for God.

    1. The Bible, originated by Jews, who claimed to be the Lord's chosen people, predicts the establishment of Israel.

    2. As predicted by the Old Testament, Jews have been persecuted by all nations of the world. They have also made positive contributions to history and culture.

    4. As prophesied, Jews were dispersed throughout the world and then returned to the "promised land."

    5. After being established in 1948, Arab nations attacked Israel hoping to destroy the Jewish state. Some of those wars were fought against overwhelming odds (1948 Arab-Israeli war, six-day war, Yom Kippur war).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wars_involving_Israel

    Apparently, God has protected Israel from it's enemies.

    Islamic terrorists have attacked Jews with rockets and suicide bombings. Seeking world support to destroy the Jewish state, as predicted by biblical prophets, Palestinians seeks to take Israel for their homeland.

    Despite wars and continual attacks, Israel has survived and prospered.

    What do you think?
    This would be correct if you yourself want to believe this.

    Personally that's not the way I think but if it's proof to you then so be it.

    I see the Israel situation as proof humans are sinners. Look at how many people are suffering.

    Surely this is not what God would want. But it is all in your head and how you want to view it.

    I'm sure many people suffering because of Israel feel the Devil is at work, not God.

  8. #8
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    Re: Is Israel Proof of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    Anti-Semitic? Who are the Semites?

    by Dr. Ken Matto

    This article is not a debate on whether National Israel is the great prophetic hot bed which the Christian should keep it's eye on but rather who has right to the claim of the name Semite. I have already written a rather extensive work on the subject of The Israel of God (available on this site) and the biblical conclusion is that the true Israel of God is the redeemed of God or better known as True Christians which contain both redeemed Gentiles and Jews.

    (2 Cor 5:16 KJV) Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

    The above term teaches us that when we become a true Christian, that no longer are we to view each other according to the flesh. For example, I am Hungarian but that does not mean my new title in Christ is Hungarian-Christian or Messianic Magyar (Hungarian). Therefore, the moniker of Messianic Jew is absolutely inconsistent with the teachings of Scripture. The title given to every redeemed of God is "Christian" and that is it. The title 'Messianic Jew" is nothing more than an attempt to have one foot in the church and the other with the identifying of National Israel which is no friend of Christianity.

    Christians have been duped
    Preachers like John Hagee and the free-will, Pro-Israel church people have been duped by their pastors and radio preachers to believe that the Jews are God's "chosen people." That term was started by a Presbyterian Laymen in 1956 (Read Prophecy and Politics by Grace Halsell) and it is not a biblical statement or fact. The problem is that if someone opposes a Jew on anything whether they are saved or not, is labeled Anti-Semitic and quite frankly I am sick of seeing doltish Christians defend the enemies of Christ (and all unsaved are) against other Christians. The greatest source of lies and deceit are found in prophecy books written by preachers who are so entwined with Zionist politics and the Zionist Lobby that they have completely lost their ability to discern truth. Yet, Christians buy these Hollywood-style scripts by the millions and then interpret the Bible according to them.
    What is a Political Semite?
    The political definition of a Semite is one who is a member of any of a number of peoples of ancient southwestern Asia including the Akkadians, Phoenicians, Hebrews, and Arabs. It is one who is a descendant of these people. They are a member of a modern people speaking a Semitic language.
    Did you notice the number of groups? Four not One! These four groups make up the Semitic peoples of the earth. I have already checked the following out in two dictionaries. The term Anti-Semitic is used only of those who dislike or hate Jews, or as a weapon against whoever the Jews don't like. Hey, wait a minute, there are four groups who are considered Semitic. If I hate the Arabs it is not Anti-Semitism but if I hate the Jews it is? Someone is selling the literary world a bill of goods in the dictionaries. If the Semitic people are comprised of four groups, then any hate toward any group needs to be classified as Anti-Semitism. Therefore, if the Jews hate the Arabs, then they are being Anti-Semitic, if the Phoenicians hate the Akkadians, it is Anti-Semitism. Eclectic definitions of Anti-Semitism must not be tolerated in favor of one race. It is obvious then that the term Anti-Semitism has been fostered on the non-thinking public as only alluding to the Jews which makes the modern definition a well-planned deception.

    The other well-planned deception is that if you oppose Israel, you oppose God. Nothing could be further from the truth. Hebrews 1:1-2 says that in the last days God spoke to us through His Son, not the nation of Israel. Mention the name of Jesus Christ in Israel and you will get arrested or killed. Any Christian who supports Israel is supporting the enemies of Christ, whether by ignorance or not. I am not calling for the elimination of Israel, perish the thought because there are many of God's elect in Israel but that nation should not be looked upon as special in God's sight because nowhere in the Bible is it set apart as a special nation in the latter days (post-ascension era). God is dealing with His elect, the Israel of God, throughout the whole world and no longer with one nation as He did in the pre-Bethlehem days. His eyes are on the church, the TRUE ISRAEL OF GOD.

    The Biblical Semites
    One group which has been omitted from the term Semite is the very group which is normally persecuted by the other four groups. However, this group is not of this world and that group is the Christians. How do I arrive at that Biblical conclusion? It is very simple.
    (Gen 5:32 KJV) And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

    Shem was one of the three sons of Noah. His descendants are called Shemites or as we know it, "Semites," as the word was anglicized. Now let us look at how this conclusion is arrived at.

    (Gen 9:18 KJV) And the sons of Noah, that went forth of the ark, were Shem, and Ham, and Japheth: and Ham is the father of Canaan.

    After the flood the family of Noah began to leave the safety of the Ark when the waters receded.

    (Gen 9:23-27 KJV) And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. {24} And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. {25} And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. {26} And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. {27} God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

    After the flood Noah became drunk and knew that Canaan looked upon his father's nakedness while Shem and Japheth refused to look upon it and covered him as they walked backward. As a result Canaan was cursed but Shem and Japheth were both blessed. Notice that God was making a declaration that Japheth would be enlarged and dwell in the tents of Shem or in his camp. God has fulfilled His promise as the Gentile nations descended from Japheth but how are they dwelling in the tents of Shem? I am glad you asked.

    (Gen 10:1 KJV) Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.

    (Gen 11:10-26 KJV)

    {10} These are the generations of Shem: Shem was an hundred years old, and begat Arphaxad two years after the flood:
    {11} And Shem lived after he begat Arphaxad five hundred years, and begat sons and daughters.
    {12} And Arphaxad lived five and thirty years, and begat Salah:
    {13} And Arphaxad lived after he begat Salah four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
    {14} And Salah lived thirty years, and begat Eber:
    {15} And Salah lived after he begat Eber four hundred and three years, and begat sons and daughters.
    {16} And Eber lived four and thirty years, and begat Peleg:
    {17} And Eber lived after he begat Peleg four hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters.
    {18} And Peleg lived thirty years, and begat Reu:
    {19} And Peleg lived after he begat Reu two hundred and nine years, and begat sons and daughters.
    {20} And Reu lived two and thirty years, and begat Serug:
    {21} And Reu lived after he begat Serug two hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters.
    {22} And Serug lived thirty years, and begat Nahor:
    {23} And Serug lived after he begat Nahor two hundred years, and begat sons and daughters.
    {24} And Nahor lived nine and twenty years, and begat Terah:
    {25} And Nahor lived after he begat Terah an hundred and nineteen years, and begat sons and daughters.
    {26} And Terah lived seventy years, and begat Abram, Nahor, and Haran.
    Are you beginning to get the picture? Abraham is in the lineage of Shem and Japheth is going to dwell within the tents or lineage of Shem. We know that Abraham had two sons: Isaac and Ishmael. Ishmael was the beginning of the Arab people and are Shemites or Semites in the truest sense of the term. Isaac begat Jacob who begat the twelve sons which began the twelve tribes of Israel and they are Shemites or Semites in the truest sense of the term. The Akkadians were dwellers in central Mesopotamia prior to 2000 B.C. and were also Semites. Abraham was born in 2167 B.C. and no doubt had much knowledge or interaction with these people because that is the very area which he lived until he was called out by God.

    Now how then do I arrive at the biblical conclusion that Christians are Semites?

    (Gal 3:6-9 KJV) Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. {7} Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. {8} And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. {9} So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

    *

    (Gal 3:14-16 KJV) That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. {15} Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. {16} Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    *

    The Conclusion is: If you are a Christian, then you are in Christ making you of the seed of Abraham making you a spiritual Semite owing to the spiritual lineage of Abraham. Therefore, anyone who hates Christians or Christianity is Anti-Semitic. Anyone who hates Christ is Anti-Semitic!

    *

    The term Anti-Semitic began about 1883 just about the time the Zionists were growing in popularity calling for an established home land for the Jews. It seemed that a term was needed to beat down everyone and anyone who opposed the Zionists. That term was "Anti-Semitic" which is used to this very day on anyone who opposes anything alluding to the nation of Israel or any Jewish person. It is used as an intimidation and terror instrument defaming the character of anyone. You will also find this term being thrown about in the free-will, pre-Trib, Israel worshipping churches by Christians toward other Christians who refuse to bow the knee to Israel or Messianic Judaism.

    Notice I said "Messianic Judaism" and not Christianity and this is because the majority of saved Jews seem to place Israel above Christ. I remember being in a Prophecy Conference at America's Keswick in the early 80's (before God opened my spiritual ears to true biblical understanding) and the speaker up there warned the hearers "Don't you be on the side of those who oppose Israel." Why? Will I lose my salvation if I oppose Israel? Many messianic Jews will equate you with being unsaved if you oppose Israel. Let them! You stand for Christ and the truth of Scripture because you are the highest form of Semite, a spiritual Semite in the line of Christ.
    You guys need to keep it really simple like I do. A lot easier.

    I have to ask

    From your post above

    Do they really kill anyone who speaks out and says Jesus Christ in Israel? I find that difficult to believe.

  9. #9
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    Re: Is Israel Proof of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    I am sure it has happenned.... I am aware there are fanatic orthodox that act almost like gangs verbally assaulting tourists for stepping on their sacred sidewalk...

    I don't think it is the norm, nor did I write that article....just provided it for our friend who claimed I an anti semite.
    Correction, I asked if you were anti-semitic. It was based on your posting.

    It seems in this world there are a lot of anti-semitic people, just like the Old Testament predicted. I have always thought hating Jews is like hating God. If you can't attack God, you attack his chosen people. The Holocaust is humanity's best record of hating Jews.

    I know based on our past exchanges you don't believe in the Bible. It is however difficult to explain Israel as pure coincidence or just part of evolution.
    Last edited by Cnance; 03-06-2013 at 02:02 PM.

  10. #10
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    Re: Is Israel Proof of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    Israel was created out of embarassment of what Hitler did to the Jews....

    Let's see my accountant, two of my business partners are jews, I attend shabbat services at a local synagogue periodically, count the omer annually...and read the bible daily....what you think you know about me is very minute.

    arabs are semites....we are trying to assist you in your understandings....you know G!d son of G!d all that stuff you are so confused on...
    Why is it that you come across as a know it all, when in actuality your ideas are very weird.

    Check Jewish history.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel

    Facts are strange things, they eliminate ambiguity.

    Jews began immigrating to their promised land, Israel in the 1880s and had established a considerable population, increasing by one third after WW II. So you see, the Jewish nation began before WW II.

    All I know about you is what you post.

    I know there is a lot of bias out there against Israel, I find it wherever I go. I find the Bible to be an accurate historical account of Jewish people. Aside from the religious argument, the historical facts about Jews and the successful founding of Israel is difficult to refute.

    With historical facts, refute the persecution of Jews since their existence as Gods' chosen people.

    Can you refute their connection to the Old Testament Lord?

    Can you present an argument for the persecution of Jews other than their identity as God's chosen people?

    As an example, is it because of their physical appearance, their aggressiveness in business matters, their clan tendencies, their superior intelligence? Are people jealous because of their superior contributions to science and the arts? What would science be without Einstein? What Hollywood be like without Jews? And they have too much money. That's it, people just don't like competition.

    So, how did it all start. Oh, I got it, Abraham was an alien from a superior world. From his superior seed, we have the Jews. It started out there in deep space where superior species live.
    Last edited by Cnance; 03-06-2013 at 07:30 PM.

  11. #11
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    Re: Is Israel Proof of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post

    Is Israel Proof of God?


    What do you think?
    No, it isn't. Lexx nailed it.

    However, if someone is determined to believe it is then there is nothing anyone can say that will convince them otherwise.


    .

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    Re: Is Israel Proof of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulM View Post
    No, it isn't. Lexx nailed it.

    However, if someone is determined to believe it is then there is nothing anyone can say that will convince them otherwise.


    .
    Where are your facts?

  13. #13
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    Re: Is Israel Proof of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    Oh yes....we are persecuting jews because we believe G!d chose them...and we will be smited for doing so...

    do you realize how stupid that sounds??

    If you are believer, you wouldn't want to piss off G!d...if you weren't a believer you could care less....

    You ideas are plausible. Jews are persecuted because they are a tight knit group, they teach their children to excel in life, own businesses, take on valued professions hence you find them in numbers much larger than our societal proportions as lawyers, accountants, doctors, politicians, entertainers, entrepreneurs, successful business owners....everywhere there is money and power....but you find them in much lower numbers than societal norms as factory workers, laborers, janitors etc.... this creates animosity rumors amongst the jealous and ignorant, and instead of raising their own children with a focus on education and success...they point fingers at jews...

    How complicated is that???
    Are you suggesting a believer should ignore facts? Assuming you aren't a believer, you still have obligation to facts. Isn't that correct? Sorry, I forgot, you believe in aliens.

    So, you disagree, Jews are not persecuted because of God. So, what is the explanation? Even when Jews didn't have economic success, they were persecuted. How do you explain that?

    So, you have found another reason. Since the beginning, disliking, or hating Jews, has been fashionable. Karl Marx would like your arguments. They are detestable creatures because they are like bourgeoisie, or Capitalists. They have superior skills and intellect, which is a crime against society!!!! Hurray for the proletariat! Marx, a Jew, turned on his own kind.

    The English have had economic successes. Why haven't they been persecuted?

    Of course, you keep ignoring history. Remember, Jewish tribes, and the promised land? Remember their plight as other tribes turned against them? Yes, I know, you say, why didn't they get along with those other tribes instead of going to war. Well, if you don't believe in God, it doesn't make sense. Nevertheless, Jews were opposed, which may explain why they were at war. Okay, ignore the Bible, how about other historical documents? If you can't find other sources, I'll post them.

    Why didn't you answer my questions about persecution of Jews throughout history? Is it because you are have a strong bias????

    I prefer facts to fiction. Evidently, you prefer to ignore Jewish persecution.
    Last edited by Cnance; 03-06-2013 at 11:12 PM.

  14. #14
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    Re: Is Israel Proof of God?

    like the article said, israel the STATE is NOT the biblical israel!? the jews are certainly clever enough to milk that IGNORANCE for their own PROTECTION!? if the US had NOT been so integral in the defense of israel the state they would have been scattered again we can assume!? you want a PERSECUTED race that has NEVER changed it's ways and persisted for centuries try ANY of the EASTERN religions/cultures!? as everyone has tried to tell you already. you are being WILLFULLY ignorant in this thread!? your PROOFS are NOT convincing as they say!? you have BLINDERS ON!? by the way, tulip is getting way to smart around here.........:cwm14: ::crazy1:
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    Re: Is Israel Proof of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Where are your facts?
    in this thread with each argument you make.
    Israel, as a nation, was destroyed... I believe by Rome... on or about 70 ad. It was only in the twentieth century that it was re-born.

    The survival of the Jewish religion is not proof of divine protection. If it were then you could also claim divine protection for Zoroastrianism... which also survives to this day.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism


    The survival of Israel as a state today is due more to politics than divine intervention. But, as I said earlier, if one is predisposed to believe it is due to divine intervention then there is nothing anyone can say to convince them otherwise... you are proof of that.

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    Re: Is Israel Proof of God?

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulM View Post
    in this thread with each argument you make.
    Israel, as a nation, was destroyed... I believe by Rome... on or about 70 ad. It was only in the twentieth century that it was re-born.

    The survival of the Jewish religion is not proof of divine protection. If it were then you could also claim divine protection for Zoroastrianism... which also survives to this day.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrianism


    The survival of Israel as a state today is due more to politics than divine intervention. But, as I said earlier, if one is predisposed to believe it is due to divine intervention then there is nothing anyone can say to convince them otherwise... you are proof of that.
    You make a good argument, I admit to a bias. However, if you look at the remarkable record of Israel's survival since 1948 it is difficult to attribute it to coincidence or luck.

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