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  1. #1
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    Does God Make Us Moral?

    It's been observed that both atheist and theist are moral, sometimes atheist are even more moral than theist.

    Is God and His commandments necessary? Do we need God to be good.
    Last edited by Cnance; 11-24-2012 at 06:44 PM.

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    Re: Does God Make Us Moral?

    only perfect mind is perfectly moral!? the mind of god is supposed to be perfect!? now we address will!? the function of will is to PASS something ON/ONTO?! so perfect mind is willing morality to humanity!? without this willing, morality should not be possible!? does/can perfect mind exist!? we know there are differences of mind!? or more accurately DIFFERENT MINDS!? that is where science is still fumbling!? 1 brain=1 mind!? also attributing MIND to BRAIN completely!? : :smurf: :
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    Re: Does God Make Us Moral?

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    adam, eve, the snake, cain gawds gawd a lousy track record.....started out crappy and ain't gawd any better...
    seems to me there is this POWER and within it's field of influence there is a PERSONALTY/KNOWLEDGE/AUTHORITY WAR!? and MAN is an INCOMPLETE BEING given a choice of COMPLETION!? in a fair and balanced manner!? OK...that's the problem......seems the whole shebang may have been accidentaly-on purpose so lots of chaos and exceptions to the rule are playing out!? but not indefinitely we have been advised!? : :crazy1: :spin2:
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    Re: Does God Make Us Moral?

    Quote Originally Posted by lexx View Post
    seems to me there is this POWER and within it's field of influence there is a PERSONALTY/KNOWLEDGE/AUTHORITY WAR!? and MAN is an INCOMPLETE BEING given a choice of COMPLETION!? in a fair and balanced manner!? OK...that's the problem......seems the whole shebang may have been accidentaly-on purpose so lots of chaos and exceptions to the rule are playing out!? but not indefinitely we have been advised!? : :crazy1: :spin2:
    I believe God intervened in history through the Bible and proposed moral laws beginning with the Ten Commandments, then after proposing strict rules for living, God gave humans a conscience. I think we all have some kind of moral compass that keeps us on the right track.

    Ultimately, morality stems from God's perfect nature. The closer we are to God the more we understand right from wrong.:liefde::

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    Re: Does God Make Us Moral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I believe God intervened in history through the Bible and proposed moral laws beginning with the Ten Commandments, then after proposing strict rules for living, God gave humans a conscience. I think we all have some kind of moral compass that keeps us on the right track.
    Interesting.
    May I suggest you become familiar with the Code_of_Hammurabi.



    Found in 1901 and dated to 1772 BC.

    One of the most famous of Hammurabi's laws is; "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth".

    Sound familiar?

    Oh, and I'm afraid that the 'Code of Hammurabi' is one of the oldest known historical codes of law that we know of.
    Last edited by nomaxim; 12-14-2012 at 06:24 PM.
    Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. -C. Darwin

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    Re: Does God Make Us Moral?

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    explain Norway and Denmark....notoriously godless states...high morality, low crime...
    You could also argue that early in their history those nations where dominated by Christian morality which influenced them.

    Doesn't it depend on how you define morality? There is Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc, all with a different norms and values.

    Assuming there is no spiritual or religious basis for morality, societal norms and values are based on secular institutions, warfare, trade, family, and even government.

    An argument can be made for Bible based morality based on comparative norms and values. Paganism, a crude form of morality, was deficient in many ways. You might say there was a need for a more civilized brand of morality. Thou shall not kill is better than killing according to a local god's inclination. Thou shall not steal is certainly a very useful value for any society. The Ten Commandments were more civilized than pagan rites and rituals, including human sacrifices.

    I expect a critique of the Bible based on the Lord wanting to eliminate paganism. That doesn't however distract from Judaism, the net consequence of the Lord's effort to start a new kind of morality.

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    Re: Does God Make Us Moral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    You could also argue that early in their history those nations where dominated by Christian morality which influenced them.

    Doesn't it depend on how you define morality? There is Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc, all with a different norms and values.

    Assuming there is no spiritual or religious basis for morality, societal norms and values are based on secular institutions, warfare, trade, family, and even government.

    An argument can be made for Bible based morality based on comparative norms and values. Paganism, a crude form of morality, was deficient in many ways. You might say there was a need for a more civilized brand of morality. Thou shall not kill is better than killing according to a local god's inclination. Thou shall not steal is certainly a very useful value for any society. The Ten Commandments were more civilized than pagan rites and rituals, including human sacrifices.

    I expect a critique of the Bible based on the Lord wanting to eliminate paganism. That doesn't however distract from Judaism, the net consequence of the Lord's effort to start a new kind of morality.
    But the bible says you can kill....if you kill the right people. The bible is not moral and I have better morals that the gawd of the bible.
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
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    Re: Does God Make Us Moral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    explain Norway and Denmark....notoriously godless states...high morality, low crime...
    You could also argue that early in their history those nations where dominated by Christian morality which influenced them.

    Doesn't it depend on how you define morality? There is Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc, all with a different norms and values.

    Assuming there is no spiritual or religious basis for morality, societal norms and values are based on secular institutions, warfare, trade, family, and even government.
    Sorry, but Norway and Denmark, along with Sweden. Were defiantly not 'Christian' "in their early history". They worshiped and followed Norse mythology.
    Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. -C. Darwin

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    Re: Does God Make Us Moral?

    Quote Originally Posted by nomaxim View Post
    Sorry, but Norway and Denmark, along with Sweden. Were defiantly not 'Christian' "in their early history". They worshiped and followed Norse mythology.
    During the middle ages Christianity was a strong influence. There were even revival movements in Sweden. Christianity may have been the most significant moral influence, it did have an impact. Historically it followed the Norse paganism period. Apparently, Norse paganism and Christianity combined in unique ways.

    http://www.cai.org/bible-studies/swe...istian-history
    Last edited by Cnance; 12-15-2012 at 02:14 PM.

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    Re: Does God Make Us Moral?

    Quote Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
    But the bible says you can kill....if you kill the right people. The bible is not moral and I have better morals that the gawd of the bible.
    i dont know if it says you can kill, although it gives examples of god telling his group to kill if that's what you mean!? but that was the OLD days!? the NEW days are supposed to be different!? but i suspect it all hinges on the mind of christ, which is faith, to keep 1 from being USED to kill others!? i mean i think god gets credit for giving people permission to kill!? STILL!? BILL!?..... the devil made me do it......: :crazy1: :judges:
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    Re: Does God Make Us Moral?

    I know atheists that are very moral and "Christians" that are very immoral. Just because someone goes to Church does not make them a Christian or a moral person. Just as if someone does not go to Church that does not make them an immoral person.

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    Re: Does God Make Us Moral?

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckrich View Post
    I know atheists that are very moral and "Christians" that are very immoral. Just because someone goes to Church does not make them a Christian or a moral person. Just as if someone does not go to Church that does not make them an immoral person.
    like i was sayin, only the mind of christ is MORAL in the PERFECT sense, like authorship!? i mean if the hatfeilds and mccoys declare a truce it dont make em moral!? but they could NOT even declare that truce if it were not for the mind of christ existing as an influence on man!? any society that has a high morality also is using this influence to arrange agreements!? and yes, there is no public declaration of religious sentiments necessary to carry this out!? and in fact may be counterproductive in the sense that politics and religion seem to divide rather than join together!? but this is still in the realm of relative morality, not perfect!? it is possible for a person to know this perfect morality, but unlikely if not impossible for the many!? and the influence of this mind in a persons life is known as conscience!? an INTERVENING will when under the influence to commit a dastardly act!? i always wanted to use that word, has that dudley do right ring to it!? :yelcutelaughA: :chicken: :freak3: :
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    Re: Does God Make Us Moral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Ultimately, morality stems from God's perfect nature. The closer we are to God the more we understand right from wrong.:liefde::
    right from wrong might also be expressed as success over failure!? in even the SMALLEST endeavor!? but now it seems god is NO LONGER coming to us we have to go to him!? seek the KINGDOM as it is expressed!? and this only POSSIBLE by/thru those that HAVE it,.......... IN MIND!? and this only possible by/thru the CHRIST MIND!? so what's the HOLDUP!? why arn't we ALL THERE!? because of LOVE, gone wrong you might say!? LOVE is the MOST POWERFUL FORCE in the universe!? but it faces a more TANGIBLY EMBEDDED FORCE called HATE!? hate exists because man is fooled into thinking his SENSES are giving him the REAL existence he PHYSICALLY OWNS/enjoys!? the POSSIBLE gain/loss of such FELT existence manifests as HATE!? :madgo: :rotz: : :smurf:
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    Re: Does God Make Us Moral?

    Originally Posted by Cnance
    Ultimately, morality stems from God's perfect nature. The closer we are to God the more we understand right from wrong.
    God's perfect nature??? You mean the same god who created down syndrome children, deformities and alike? That Perfect Nature???

    The closer we are to knowledge the less we need the excuse of god.
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
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    "I have read the bible...more than once. I was not impressed nor was I so moved to give up my ability to think for myself and surrender my knowledge of facts for the unfounded belief in a mythical sky-fairy." - Me.

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    Re: Does God Make Us Moral?

    Quote Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
    God's perfect nature??? You mean the same god who created down syndrome children, deformities and alike? That Perfect Nature???

    The closer we are to knowledge the less we need the excuse of god.
    I prefer to take a different track logically if I may. Christians and Muslims etc. Don't give the earth credit for anything ever. Its and invisible entity that makes things grow. Makes sure there is water etc. All credit and acknowledgment is to the invisible entity. Thats way beyond superstition in my opinion. Even a farmer has to approach things logically in timed fashion to make his crops grow. Sickness? Most everyone I know is very, very healthy once again no credit to anything on the earth but to the sky and invisible things. Most people hardly ever need a doctor. However there advice is needed and imparted on a daily basis. The things they use to heal aren't in the sky but more things from the earth. You cut yourself? Hey your body heals itself along with the knowledge you should cover the wound. Flu try a warmer climate. People in warm climates never get the flu or colds. Simple sense. People get downs of course the vast majority are healthy. I don't give credit to any sky being or if they get sick blame it on some invisible devil (which they do of course many of them anyway) or some invisible demon which is nothing but a thought that they took seriously and continually battle that thought which they think is real. Your a man that likes science. I think its ok especially when it comes to doctors. However the earth is quite capable of providing most of what we need. Which they even imbue crops growing to some invisible sky entity opening his hand to feed the people of the earth.

    The invisible booger man either provides or dosen't. There is no reasoning to all of that. No logic. Its just some kind of test for them to figure out. Like Job who didn't do squat to anyone. It was just fun filling his body with boils and taking away everything he had and killing all of his livestock.

    In all their confusion. Even they would have to admit. Faith healing just isn't that popular nor does it work. If it did. People would not go to hospitals. They would be flocking to churchs. Trying to get healed of cancer or heart problems etc. It just ain't happening that way its kind of obvious.

    Lucifer is some kind of skylight that leads all the leaders of the world astray and is the cause of all problems at the top. They eye leaders with suspicion. Yet they pray for them so Lucy or LSD as I like to call him merrily gets them into all kinds of trouble yes in christianty its a must to obey those at the top lucy or not.

    So to sum it up none of them is going to a faith healer for the flu they are taking theraflu and using antiseptic for there cuts just like the doctor told them. The bible had that covered at one point saying "God" uses the doctors hands how convienient. Nevermind all the research lol.

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    Re: Does God Make Us Moral?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorkin61 View Post
    I prefer to take a different track logically if I may. Christians and Muslims etc. Don't give the earth credit for anything ever. Its and invisible entity that makes things grow. Makes sure there is water etc. All credit and acknowledgment is to the invisible entity. Thats way beyond superstition in my opinion. Even a farmer has to approach things logically in timed fashion to make his crops grow. Sickness? Most everyone I know is very, very healthy once again no credit to anything on the earth but to the sky and invisible things. Most people hardly ever need a doctor. However there advice is needed and imparted on a daily basis. The things they use to heal aren't in the sky but more things from the earth. You cut yourself? Hey your body heals itself along with the knowledge you should cover the wound. Flu try a warmer climate. People in warm climates never get the flu or colds. Simple sense. People get downs of course the vast majority are healthy. I don't give credit to any sky being or if they get sick blame it on some invisible devil (which they do of course many of them anyway) or some invisible demon which is nothing but a thought that they took seriously and continually battle that thought which they think is real. Your a man that likes science. I think its ok especially when it comes to doctors. However the earth is quite capable of providing most of what we need. Which they even imbue crops growing to some invisible sky entity opening his hand to feed the people of the earth.

    The invisible booger man either provides or dosen't. There is no reasoning to all of that. No logic. Its just some kind of test for them to figure out. Like Job who didn't do squat to anyone. It was just fun filling his body with boils and taking away everything he had and killing all of his livestock.

    In all their confusion. Even they would have to admit. Faith healing just isn't that popular nor does it work. If it did. People would not go to hospitals. They would be flocking to churchs. Trying to get healed of cancer or heart problems etc. It just ain't happening that way its kind of obvious.

    Lucifer is some kind of skylight that leads all the leaders of the world astray and is the cause of all problems at the top. They eye leaders with suspicion. Yet they pray for them so Lucy or LSD as I like to call him merrily gets them into all kinds of trouble yes in christianty its a must to obey those at the top lucy or not.

    So to sum it up none of them is going to a faith healer for the flu they are taking theraflu and using antiseptic for there cuts just like the doctor told them. The bible had that covered at one point saying "God" uses the doctors hands how convienient. Nevermind all the research lol.
    i agree that extremists while soley dependent on a god's will as they say instead of being pragmatic about their own situation or that of others may be crossing a line they dont realize they are crossing!? they dont know enough of scripture other than rote memory to know when to hold em and when to fold em!? doesn't mean they are in an absolute sense wrong they are just over reaching in a sense!? they are claiming things that they actually only have book sense of and maybe a faulty sense to at that!? i mean wishful thinking is the same no matter what the subject is!? my proposal is that anything done well is done with the mind of god thru christ!? bible even SAYS that a man may DENY the name of christ and do well but NOT deny his spirit!? just means spirit is a PERSONAL thing and only knowable by the individual!? and since the spirit of god is FREEDOM/PERFECTION, we have to ask freedom FROM what!? it's like a chronic toothache/headache!? 1 may put up with it but it drags on 1's performance/ability!? if it suddenly is GONE, then a sense of FREEDOM arises!? if we think of all men under different duress that they have always known or accidentally acquired, this would explain their differences in performance/knowledge!? certainly you are familiar with psychosomatic illmess, what if we consider these as exaggerations of the REAL cause of ALL deficiencys!? hey, in many respects science may be better than NOTHING as they say but science is still in the DARK AGES if we dare imagine the possibilities of it's explorations!? of course their is an inherent DANGER in this EXCLUSIVE approach to the human delimna, however experienced, and that is the POWERS/PRODUCTS unleashed/discovered ARE capable of DESTRUCTING ALL that we know, even life itself!? common simple folk who are RELIGIOUS are not CAPABLE of such FEATS of madness/accident!? you know what they say...MODERATION is way to AVOID the extremes of any venture into the unknown!? ::chicken::crazy1::smurf:
    Last edited by lexx; 01-12-2013 at 06:50 PM.
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