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    Adam, Sin, Death

    How does the idea that Adam ushered sin into the world jive with Ezekiel 18?

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    Re: Adam, Sin, Death

    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman View Post
    How does the idea that Adam ushered sin into the world jive with Ezekiel 18?

    In other words, since Ezekiel 18 speaks of the children of Israel no longer using the Proverb "The fathers eat sour grapes and their children's teeth are set on edge" but are instead told to embrace the notion that one's deeds are theirs alone; whether righteous or unrighteous, ownership is not transmitted to the next generation...

    How does that jive with the idea that Adam is the cause of all sin, since sin belongs to the sinner and not their descendents?

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    Re: Adam, Sin, Death

    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman View Post
    In other words, since Ezekiel 18 speaks of the children of Israel no longer using the Proverb "The fathers eat sour grapes and their children's teeth are set on edge" but are instead told to embrace the notion that one's deeds are theirs alone; whether righteous or unrighteous, ownership is not transmitted to the next generation...

    How does that jive with the idea that Adam is the cause of all sin, since sin belongs to the sinner and not their descendents?
    Just more of the wonderful contradictions within the bible.
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
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    "I have read the bible...more than once. I was not impressed nor was I so moved to give up my ability to think for myself and surrender my knowledge of facts for the unfounded belief in a mythical sky-fairy." - Me.

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    Re: Adam, Sin, Death

    Quote Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
    Just more of the wonderful contradictions within the bible.


    I wonder what the christian take is on this...

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    Re: Adam, Sin, Death

    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman View Post
    In other words, since Ezekiel 18 speaks of the children of Israel no longer using the Proverb "The fathers eat sour grapes and their children's teeth are set on edge" but are instead told to embrace the notion that one's deeds are theirs alone; whether righteous or unrighteous, ownership is not transmitted to the next generation...

    How does that jive with the idea that Adam is the cause of all sin, since sin belongs to the sinner and not their descendents?
    Interesting that we have "takes" on this within the US Co nstitutio n, with terms such as "corruption of blood", meanin g that the children will not suffer for the 'sins" of the parent(s), also no Bills of Attainder, punishing wiothout due process, correspo nding to the 5th amendment. Notice the "sour grapes" verse is set in the form of a question from God:

    "What mean ye, that ye use this proverb concernin g the land of israel, saying The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children's teeth are set on edge?"

    If you look at Deuteronomy, you see that each individual accused of a "sin"(transgression of the law, 1 John 3:4), must have at least two accusers. If there is only on e, then the judges are told to "inquire diligently"(Deuteronomy 19) to see if the accusation is true. If not, the accused goes free. Notice also in Isaiah 54;17 that the accused bears the protection of God, and in Isaiah 50:8, the accused gets to challenge his accuser. The basis of law was that the accused always had the right to challenge any accusation and if proven false, the accuser had to suffer the penalty he would have imposed on the accused(Deuteronomy 19).

    In fact, the proverb had been developed by Israel as a re cog nition that the peole themselves seem to be pu nished for their "chosenness".

    Notice verse 7-8. Debts and usury are explicitly mentioned. Connect this to Nehemiah 5. In tht, you see the people of israel returning to Israel from captivity, and the peopl esuffer directly from usury or interest. Their lands were taken, they could not afford food, and children were bein g married off to pay debts. IOW, the responsibility was never for Israel to impose interest on debts, and to see that no one suffered from usury(verse 11 refers to interest amount to a "hundredth part". Quite small). As you can see in Deuteronomy 24:10-13, which was the original right of property ownership. This very process of control in whi ch the children suffered the penalty of the parents, was directyl caused by control of mo ney via usury or interest. Notice such controls prohibited on properety in Micah 2:5: "Therefore thou shalt have none that shall cast a cord(surveyor's line) by lot(by vote) in the co ngregation of the Lord. Yet we see this process of control by exteme debt practiced by Jews in Habakkuk 2:6:
    "Woe to him that increaseth that which is not his! ...and to him that ladeth himself with thick clay?"

    The "clay" comes from the hebrew "abtiyt", and it means "weight of pledges" or "heavy debt". That is, a pledge "loaded" with an interest payment, as in mortgages. Max DiMont traces the history of this financial development in "The Indestructible Jews". This book is not an "underground" book, but highly acclaimed history. Therefore the "sour grapeds" para ble was not started in law by God, but added by experience of the people.

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    Re: Adam, Sin, Death

    Interesting post, doojie, pertaining to usury, etc...


    What about all the moral items listed?

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    Re: Adam, Sin, Death

    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman View Post
    Interesting post, doojie, pertaining to usury, etc...


    What about all the moral items listed?
    You see from reading that every "moral" sin connects right back to usury. To do these things and then to control society by the use of money and interest. However, keep in mind that Paul has pointed out what should be obvious to anyone either from a logical aspect or historical aspect. Isaac was not israelite nor Jew. There was no israel or Jews when the promise was made to Abraham and it could not be "disannulled" by the law 430 years later at Sinai(Galatins 3;17).

    Consequently, by Paul's clear statement, the promise between God and Abraham coud not be limited to legal aspects at Sinai, but rested on an outcome which could only be ensureed by God, as isaac's birth had been. Jesus had been the fulfillment of that promise, and he had stated that you cannot serve God and mammon. The strong temptation when viewed from Ezekiel 18 and Jesus' statement to the Pharisees was the need to influence the cultures by the control of money, which began as early as the trading posts in Babylon(Eekiel 23:15-19). This, in fact, is the birthplace of the Talmud, in Babylon, which is a reading of "legislation" that allows for both civil laws and commerce. "Sin" was a form of "leavening" which was spread via greed and covetousness. The love of money is the root of all evil.

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    Re: Adam, Sin, Death

    I still don't see how you are linking moral violations:
    idolatry, adultery, oppression of the poor (what type?), robbery, reneging on a promise, doing "detestable things," has sex with women on their period, eating food blessed by idols...

    with

    ONE thing listed pertaining to usury:

    lending at interest and taking a profit...


    How do they connect?

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    Re: Adam, Sin, Death

    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman View Post
    I still don't see how you are linking moral violations:
    idolatry, adultery, oppression of the poor (what type?), robbery, reneging on a promise, doing "detestable things," has sex with women on their period, eating food blessed by idols...

    with

    ONE thing listed pertaining to usury:

    lending at interest and taking a profit...


    How do they connect?
    Look at the chapter. It continually cycles back to interest and usury. Verse 7-8,13,17. As The first Baron Rothschild is alleged to have said, "Give me control of the money supply, and I care not who makes the laws".

    A friend of mine from years back, who started alternative currency called LETSystem, Michalel Linton, pointed out that "money is an information system by which we deploy our productive efforts". IOW, money is an information system, and the control of that information is the control of social behavior to a great degree. The more dependent people are on a centrally controlled issuance by debt, the more they must compete in immoral ways to take care of themselves. The battle of "all against all" is heightened, crating a psy chological effect in which the "love of many shall wax cold(Matthew 24:12)".

    Conditions of "many false prophets" tend to increase, since the people will seek to make money, and to control ways of making money. This increases skepticism, cynicism, etc, until more and more people become sociopaths or psychopaths, and any form of social behavior becomes acceptable in making a living. If we don't actually practice it, we can make movies about it. This, in fact, was Marx's clearly stated theory of money. He wrote that when money becomes the "universal equivalent' of all value, then the "so-called in alienable rights, and the fixed property rights corresponding to them, break down before money". Marx saw money as an information system by which behavior could increasingly be controlled from the top down. For those who control money, "freedom" to make money in any tye of pursuit, moral or immoral, becomes a worthy propositon, since it promotes increasing regulation and identification of "bad' things, and forces the people into greater confines of legal regulation. The love of money is the root of all evil.

    Now, if you're asking do people sin anyway, of course they do. They'd do it regardless of the economic system, because that's how they're built. But that's more connected to our biological natures. James 4:1-2. But that's why the constant warning against "mammon", and usury, and con trol of money issuance. People tend to be more cooperative if their lives are communal and the information's environment reinforces it.

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    Re: Adam, Sin, Death

    So, you don't see Ezekiel 18 and Adam's sin and usherance of sin having any correlation.

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    Re: Adam, Sin, Death

    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman View Post
    How does the idea that Adam ushered sin into the world jive with Ezekiel 18?

    Whereas the story of Adam and Eve is about humans rejecting God and forfeiting eternal life, Ezekiel 18 is about the consequence of that event. The chapter is a long list wrongful acts that condemn humans.

    I have another interpretation that places Adam and Eve at a earlier period in earth's history. Paradise was about 65 million years ago during the dinosaur era. God was in the world enjoying his creatures when, suddenly, Satan, God's fallen angel, came into the world and turned all creatures against God. After the destruction of paradise, homo sapiens evolved.

    Then, humans became the dominant species. God wasn't pleased, He expected things to progress in a more orderly way after that fateful event. Furthermore, His sacred dinosaur graved (earth) was being defiled.

    Subsequently, God intervened in human affairs. The Lord God attempted to establish a new moral order on earth with His chosen people.

    The chapter is about that new morality,"Suppose there is a righteous man" (Ezekiel 18:5). It is also about what happens when humans disobey God's commandments.
    Last edited by Cnance; 11-21-2012 at 11:10 PM.

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    Re: Adam, Sin, Death

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Whereas the story of Adam and Eve is about humans rejecting God and forfeiting eternal life, Ezekiel 18 is about the consequence of that event. The chapter is a long list wrongful acts that condemn humans.

    Ah, but see? Adam and Eve are the ushers of death on the world. They are the father and mother of all subsequent human suffering and death. They are THE proximate and ultimate cause in one!

    They - from which sprang all humanity, ate the sour grapes that set ALL their descendant childrens' teeth on edge!


    Yet Ezekiel 18 states that the perpetrator of sin or righteousness owns it. Sort of like our "The buck stops here."




    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I have another interpretation that places Adam and Eve at a earlier period in earth's history. Paradise was about 65 million years ago during the dinosaur era....
    Then, humans became the dominant species...ore, His sacred dinosaur graved (earth) was being defiled....
    Subsequently, God intervened....
    The chapter is about that new morality,"Suppose there is a righteous man" (Ezekiel 18:5). It is also about what happens when humans disobey God's commandments.


    Your ideas put me in mind of a thread I started years ago that didn't get much play...

    Check it out by CLICKING HERE, but the main gist of, pulled from the thread, is this:


    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman
    What's so strange about the whole Lucifer/Beelzabub/Satan/Father of lies story according to christians is that they say he was God's right-hand man, the top angel, the "second in command" and that he rebelled against God. He supposedly led many of the other "Host of Heaven" in this rebellion, causing an uprising which ultimately led to his temporal downfall and subsequent banishment from heaven along with his followers. they then became Satan and his cronies (demons) which wonder to and fro upon the earth causing man to forsake God and all that...

    well, not much is said (unless i'm much mistaken) about this "heavenly revolution" in the bible other than subtle hints...

    the story of the pre-Adamic (Luciferian) flood, as i've read it and had it explained, goes something like this.

    The first earth was created and populated with...creatures not unlike the ones existing in our world today. However, these beings were existent millions of years ago during the first creation...this accounts for all the dinosaurs... it also accounts for the "ape-men" of evolution theory. These ape-men were a sort of prototype of modern man.
    Satan - then called Lucifer, was given reign over the earth before his revolt. when it finally came to the war and Satan was overthrown, a side-effect was the destruction of the world, a blighting of the sun, a tremendous flood and an immediate freeze (ice-age?) that destroyed every living creature, thus ending the first earth.
    The story of Genesis picks up with God "creating" the world again, however if you look at the wording in the book, it would seem that the world already existed...God divided the heavens from the heavens, giving air to the earth again, caused the already existing water to recede, making the already existing land to appear again. He then "fixed" the sun and the stars in their places to give warmth and light to the planet and went on to create the next "man."

    ...not a very good explanation...but there it is in a nutshell.

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    Re: Adam, Sin, Death

    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman View Post
    So, you don't see Ezekiel 18 and Adam's sin and usherance of sin having any correlation.
    I see no connection at all. The state ment in Ezekiel 18 was in the form of a question , like" "Where the hell did that co me from? I said everybody pays for their own sin".

    As for your question, Paul digs in to that in Romans 5. Verse 13: "For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed where there is no law".
    So let's back up and look at it. Verse 12: "Wherefore by one man, sin entered in to the world, and death by sin, and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned".

    Israel and the Jews were saying that children are pun ished for fathers' sin, yet Paul, and God for that matter, pointed out that all sin, which means that all die.

    If you follow through to verse 15, you see "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift."

    More accurately translated is "the free gift is not like the false step..." Because of Adam, all men die, but since this judgement was passed on all men by the act of Adam, a free gift passed on all men by the act of Jesus.
    18: "Therefore as by the offence of one judgement came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon al men to justification of life".

    That's pretty plain and simple. The question is, do we have to somehow choose it? Well, we still die, regardless. If Adam brought sin to all men, then Jesus brought "justification of life' to all men. If you must choose, what exactly do you choose? Simply to believe something about Jesus? Then the warni ng agai nst deception in Matthew 24 would be a waste of time. The only correct choice you can make is to believe you are actually free of all human authority systems, and that Je sus' sacrifice was really a free gift. Ezekiel 18 doesn;t say the "sour grape" idea was God's, since it;s fra med as a question from God. Jesus made all men free, but they only have to accept that they are free. Free from what? From God? We can't be sure if there is a God, but we CAN choose to be free from men which is fully consistent with Matthew 24:23.

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    Re: Adam, Sin, Death

    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman View Post
    Ah, but see? Adam and Eve are the ushers of death on the world. They are the father and mother of all subsequent human suffering and death. They are THE proximate and ultimate cause in one!

    They - from which sprang all humanity, ate the sour grapes that set ALL their descendant childrens' teeth on edge!


    Yet Ezekiel 18 states that the perpetrator of sin or righteousness owns it. Sort of like our "The buck stops here."








    Your ideas put me in mind of a thread I started years ago that didn't get much play...

    Check it out by CLICKING HERE, but the main gist of, pulled from the thread, is this:
    That's extraordinarily interesting. Accept for some differences it fits with my paradise idea. Your description is a better fit for the Bible because it allows for Adam and Eve.

    My the paradise idea came from a series of dreams. In one dream, God was in the air above dinosaurs and other prehistorical animals in a lush garden. What I remember most was the animals responding to God with cheerful sounds, dinosaurs had loud trumpeting calls. I don't recall any humans or homo sapiens there.
    Last edited by Cnance; 11-23-2012 at 06:15 PM.

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    Re: Adam, Sin, Death

    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman View Post
    Ah, but see? Adam and Eve are the ushers of death on the world. They are the father and mother of all subsequent human suffering and death. They are THE proximate and ultimate cause in one!

    They - from which sprang all humanity, ate the sour grapes that set ALL their descendant childrens' teeth on edge!


    Yet Ezekiel 18 states that the perpetrator of sin or righteousness owns it. Sort of like our "The buck stops here."








    Your ideas put me in mind of a thread I started years ago that didn't get much play...

    Check it out by CLICKING HERE, but the main gist of, pulled from the thread, is this:
    for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me............and do you remember my statement that if genesis is allegorical then it would mean YOU are ADAM!? :errr:::crazy1::
    i do not endorse/recommend any advertising on scam.com associated with my name /posts or otherwise. thank you

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    Re: Adam, Sin, Death

    Seems that God was rather scientifici in the creatin story of Adam in Genesis. In various studies of livi ng organisms from fruit flies to humans, it has been discovered that the lowly fruit fly can actually learn from its own experience, and 'record' that for future reference. Scientists took certain odors that fruit flies found either enjoyable or annoying, and placed them at the mouths of certai jars, after wich the fruit flies would avoid those jars that had annoying odors and seek those with enjoyable odors. They could remember, it seemed, which jar mouths to avoid.

    Bees, of course, show a high degree of learning as a hive, even to figuring out fixed geometric progression, all based on the relation to availiable food.

    Learning is directly related to evolutionary patterns that ensure we survive. God, therefore, in order to accelerate the learning patt ern with Adam and Eve, introduced them to the idea that a chosen action would bring death. "Do, this, and you die".

    The story tells us that the serpent came along and said, "Oh, you won;t die, you will become as gods, knowing good and evil".

    This is interestin g if we take the story to realize that both statements, of God and the serpent, had some truth. You don't necessarily die from one choice, but it can lead to death. Therefore, you develop patterns of choices over time that reinforce life. That is, God used the very same rein forcement strategies that scientists used to test the learning abilities of fruit flies. They threatened their immune system.

    In various studies, it is becoming increasi ngly obvious that we call "consciosuness" or "self awareness' is directly linked to our immune system, which acts as a ki nd of brain that operates by the same general fuctions in species ranging from bacteria to humans.
    1.It identifies and 'tags' invaders
    2.It record this identification in a 'database" or "library" fore future reference
    3. The organism retains "junk DNA" which is actually remnants of "disabled" viruses from past invasions
    4.This same DNA also constitutes what is called "jumping genes" that actively insert genetic material randomly in the developing brain before birth
    5. The gut, the enteric nervous system(ENS) operates usi ng many of the same neurotransmitters and proteins that allow messages to jump through the system, also comprising major cells of the immune system.

    That is, if you want a species to learn, make it quickly aware that certain decisions cause it and its offspring to die.

    Since humans have developed an ability to see conscious connections between behaviro and death, morality would dictate that we learn to make true life choices rather than death choices. Religion, however, ignores the life choices in favor of a life after death, which cannot be proven. "The wages of sin is death(Romans 6:23). The resulting development of confusing religions arises because we tend to ignore the basic premise of morality and life, and focus on a non-existent life after death. "You will not die. You will become as gods, knowing good and evil".

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