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  1. #17
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    Re: Irreversibly Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Yes, I agree, "that a supernatural answer cannot explain a god, based on causal relationsh8ips either," That is my point, the supernatural (God and His angels) are not made of matter or energy, they are spiritual forms without it.

    Again, the supernatural is outside of the causality category, unless you infer that angels were created by God, they have however no material substance.

    What answer? Your reply about causal elements only proves or refers to causal relationships whereby matter and energy cannot create itself, nor can there be a prior material condition for their production.

    It is not my fault that brilliant scientist refuse to address my argument, they may become discouraged. Admitting a supernatural being created the universe would be a humbling and intolerable experience.

    I applaud the progress of science, but I don't worship science nor do I have faith that science will every prove a natural cause explanation for the universe. It will never happen!


    "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth . . . " Genesis 1.

    If back then, if humans had some knowledge of science, descriptions would have included the big bang, etc. It's interesting, the recipient of God's holy word, the Jews, are some of the most brilliant scientists in the world.


    IYou know of course the Bible is not a science textbook.

    Have you seen God? Why do you think God looks like one of his creatures? Unless you are referring the Jesus; when, for a short time, God took on human form.

    Here go again. Prophets of the Bible had personal experiences with God. You like others on scam.com hate the Bible and all that it stands for, so we can have no discussion. Indeed, humans are an arrogant and destructive species.

    Even though crude in form and composition, the Bible is necessary for our discussion, especially because my personal testimony is off limits. Without the Bible, I have an understanding of God, heaven, angels, Satan, the purpose of the universe, paradise, and God's intervention in human affairs. The Bible however is God's blueprint for his communication with humans.

    I already covered that. Again, I don't think authors of the Bible should be condemned for not having degrees in science, or a modern day understandings.

    Yes, I know about your prejudice. Those men created God. One day one of them, a highly intelligent may by the name of Abraham decided to make up a fantastic story, one that would carry on for many generations. What a remarkable accomplishment. Then, his ancestors, having lying genes, continued the fraud.

    You have never presented such evidence, because it doesn't exist. There are legions of scientist who continue working on the same old worn out paradigm, causal theories. No scientist has presented a natural cause explanation. The reason for that failure is it's impossible, science is not capable of understanding a non-causal event.

    Which scientist would you like to discuss? How about Hawking? Either his theory that space without time preceded the big bang, or his theory of multiple universes? Which theory? They're all fanciful theories without proof.

    Where is the evidence for a non-causal event, one that would produce matter and energy.

    Do you want me to believe matter and energy created itself? Where is the proof for that proposition?
    Present you claim for magic, based on the science to support your claim.

    Attempting to prove the current scientific theory incorrect in no way supports or makes you claim credible or valid.

    Are you too stupid to know that?
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
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    "I have read the bible...more than once. I was not impressed nor was I so moved to give up my ability to think for myself and surrender my knowledge of facts for the unfounded belief in a mythical sky-fairy." - Me.

  2. #18
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    Re: Irreversibly Time

    Yes, I agree, "that a supernatural answer cannot explain a god, based on causal relationsh8ips either," That is my point, the supernatural (God and His angels) are not made of matter or energy, they are spiritual forms without it.
    But the "crux" of your argument...."god created the universe" supposes that your version of god IS the cause.....spiritual being, supernatural being, or whatever your god is to you.

    You still must show that this "causal mechanism," your god exists.

    And that he caused the universe to come into existence.

    Science accomplishes this, and shows it's "work" in the form of proofs and mathematics.....without a need of a god.


    You have exactly zero basis for a causal element, let along a leg to stand as far as this "god cause" creating everything, Cnance.

    Science has explained where everything comes from in a natural setting...using natural sources as it's basis.

    Without a basis, (or impetus...that is, proof of a god's existence) you cannot ever show a causal relationship between the universe which we all experience, and the reason that it is here, other than a scientific, and natural explanation.

    Science wrestles with showing a causal relationship from before "zero" up to Planck time.

    It has shown viable proofs from Planck time up to the present...but, and this is an important "but," it does this because it has impetus for existence, in it's testing of the natural world's phenomena, because those phenomena are observable and testable.

    Bottom line:
    You need to show that there was a need for a god, before the Big Bang, in order to invite a proof for his causality.

    The paradox of this is that you'll need to show that logic came before your god did, simply because if there really is this god that you describe, there had to be a logical need for him first, in order for him to exist.

    Again, the supernatural is outside of the causality category, unless you infer that angels were created by God, they have however no material substance.
    So....you are stating that your supernatural entity, (god) cannot effectively "cause" a physical universe, to come into being, since he is supernatural.
    Are you certain that you want to make this statement?

    And in your quote up at the top of this post, you state that a supernatural answer cannot explain a god, based on causal relationships.

    Then what can explain this god, and his supposed "works?"
    Feelings? Emotions? Human frailties?

    Please tell me just where there are proofs of any other types of relationships, as everything is in a relationship (physical, or energy-related) with everything else.
    Anywhere in the universe.

    In your next post, please offer up your version of the bible's means to this "beginnings" question.
    "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth . . . " Genesis
    But above you stated that "The supernatural is outside of the causality category."

    You know of course the Bible is not a science textbook.
    I know......you'll find it over in the "fantasy" section of your friendly neighborhood library....

    Have you seen God? Why do you think God looks like one of his creatures? Unless you are referring the Jesus; when, for a short time, God took on human form.
    I cannot see thought, either..but it makes itself known to me.

    IMHO, the bible outdoes itself in disqualifying itself from reality...

    Cnance, have you ever thought about what is behind your god....you know....what created him, besides human emotions???

    You like others on scam.com hate the Bible and all that it stands for, so we can have no discussion.
    No. I don't hate the bible, Cnance.
    I dislike the misinformation and stupidity that folks read into it's verses...

    I dislike the enormous amount of time and energy folks waste, inserting their thoughts, wishes, and emotions into a deep, dark "hole" of fantasy, which can never be factual, due to it's fanciful hyperbole.
    Last edited by GHOST DOG; 11-20-2012 at 11:17 PM.
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

  3. #19
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    Re: Irreversibly Time

    Quote Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
    Present you claim for magic, based on the science to support your claim.

    Attempting to prove the current scientific theory incorrect in no way supports or makes you claim credible or valid.

    Are you too stupid to know that?
    Don't bother commenting, I won't respond to insults.

  4. #20
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    Re: Irreversibly Time

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    But the "crux" of your argument...."god created the universe" supposes that your version of god IS the cause.....spiritual being, supernatural being, or whatever your god is to you.

    You still must show that this "causal mechanism," your god exists.
    You misunderstand my comments. I never said God is a causal mechanism. That infers that god is a material being or some kind of computer. God, a supernatural being, created matter and energy which became "causal mechanisms."

    And that he caused the universe to come into existence.
    Not based on physical laws, but on supernatural power.

    Science accomplishes this, and shows it's "work" in the form of proofs and mathematics.....without a need of a god.
    Math models are sophisticated causal relationships. Having solved advanced math problems, I understand the process. It's all part of our material world. However, I also know from math that you must understand methodology related to a good research design in order to facilitate a solution. However, math cannot create matter and energy, nor can math explain how it came into being without a material cause. God is not part of our material world. After creating it, God has, accepting for two brief periods (paradise and the Bible) has assumed a policy of nonintervention.


    You have exactly zero basis for a causal element, let along a leg to stand as far as this "god cause" creating everything, Cnance.
    And you have zero basis for proposing a natural cause explanation for the universe.

    Science has explained where everything comes from in a natural setting...using natural sources as it's basis.
    Not everything! Science has not explained where matter and energy came from, or what caused the big bang. All that science has accomplished is to explain how God did it.

    Without a basis, (or impetus...that is, proof of a god's existence) you cannot ever show a causal relationship between the universe which we all experience, and the reason that it is here, other than a scientific, and natural explanation.
    Where is that natural cause explanation?

    Science wrestles with showing a causal relationship from before "zero" up to Planck time.
    So what, that doesn't explain anything about the origin of matter and energy.

    It has shown viable proofs from Planck time up to the present...but, and this is an important "but," it does this because it has impetus for existence, in it's testing of the natural world's phenomena, because those phenomena are observable and testable.
    All we know is what science has accomplished. How about where it all came from?

    Bottom line:
    You need to show that there was a need for a god, before the Big Bang, in order to invite a proof for his causality.
    Why do I have to show a need for a god?

    Actually, I have an explanation for God's need. He created the universe as a prison for Satan.

    The paradox of this is that you'll need to show that logic came before your god did, simply because if there really is this god that you describe, there had to be a logical need for him first, in order for him to exist.
    You're inferring God is human, therefore a mortal being. Why would God, the only eternal being, need a logical reason to exist?

    So....you are stating that your supernatural entity, (god) cannot effectively "cause" a physical universe, to come into being, since he is supernatural.
    Are you certain that you want to make this statement?
    I said God, a supernatural being, created the universe. The word cause, as related to human logic or to matter and energy, doesn't apply to God. God wills with his supernatural being. If I stated God caused, it was not meant to mean God created by His will.

    And in your quote up at the top of this post, you state that a supernatural answer cannot explain a god, based on causal relationships.
    God is not subject to physical laws, therefore, you cannot attribute human traits to God.

    Then what can explain this god, and his supposed "works?"
    Feelings? Emotions? Human frailties?
    You'll find some answers in the Bible. However, I don't expect that you would ever stoop that low. I have my own opinions about God related to the Bible, but it would be an exercise in futility. I would expect a lot of psycho babble from you.

    Please tell me just where there are proofs of any other types of relationships, as everything is in a relationship (physical, or energy-related) with everything else.
    Anywhere in the universe.
    I have one interesting proof of God in the universe. God is two entities, both equal in power, glory and holiness. Everywhere you find duality, two eyes, two ears, two limbs, two wings, neutrons and protons, positive and negative charges, computer code, etc. That's God's fingerprint on the universe.

    As for spiritual evidence of God, there is none. God resides in heaven with His angels.

    But above you stated that "The supernatural is outside of the causality category."
    God is pure spirit. God, a supernatural being, created matter and energy.

    I know......you'll find it over in the "fantasy" section of your friendly neighborhood library....

    I cannot see thought, either..but it makes itself known to me.
    I think, therefore I am, said Kant, a famous philosopher.

    IMHO, the bible outdoes itself in disqualifying itself from reality...
    The Bible is humans record of God's visit to earth.

    Cnance, have you ever thought about what is behind your god....you know....what created him, besides human emotions???
    Is that a trick question. Ha. ha.

    Is this leading to psycho babble stuff?

    How can God, an eternal being, have a cause? Evidently, you don't understand the meaning of "eternal."

    No. I don't hate the bible, Cnance.
    I dislike the misinformation and stupidity that folks read into it's verses...
    Evidently, you're very independent and don't like to be told how to think. Not everyone is that way.

    I dislike the enormous amount of time and energy folks waste, inserting all of their misplaced thoughts, wishes, and emotions into a deep, dark "hole" of fantasy, which can never be factual, due to it's fanciful hyperbole.
    Yes, there is a lot of that in Christianity. I go to church with my wife, who believes in the Bible as literal word, and find myself disagreeing with sermons. However, I want to get along inasmuch as Christians are well intended. So, not wanting to be rude, I read the Old Testament during the sermon. Because of personal experiences, I have different interpretations of the Bible. As I said, I believe the Bible is humans only record of God.

    Mostly, what I believe is the Old Testament, although full of inconsistencies and errors, it's the best record humans have of God's interaction with humans.

    I think we've about exhausted the subject. You are convinced science will answer the origin question, and I am certain God created everything. So, why don't we call it quits? Nothing more can be accomplished.

    Thanks for the debate. It's been a good exchange, friendly and open.
    Last edited by Cnance; 11-21-2012 at 12:19 AM.

  5. #21
    LogicallyYours's Avatar
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    Re: Irreversibly Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Don't bother commenting, I won't respond to insults.
    TOUGH, PROVE THE MAGIC!
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    "I have read the bible...more than once. I was not impressed nor was I so moved to give up my ability to think for myself and surrender my knowledge of facts for the unfounded belief in a mythical sky-fairy." - Me.

  6. #22
    LogicallyYours's Avatar
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    Re: Irreversibly Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Thanks for the debate. It's been a good exchange, friendly and open.
    That's only because he hasn't dealing with your lies for over two years.

    You deserve neither respect nor cordiality. The level of intellectual dishonesty you display far surpasses any cognitive argument you might make.

    You have absolutely no honest desire to learn the truth, you just wish to be right. You have no desire to learn, you just wish to have your beliefs validated.

    When boiled down, you're simply a presuppositionalist, gawd of the gaps godbot who wants to ignore all the history of what science has overcome and explained.

    In short, you contribute nothing intellectual to the conversation.

    Stay Stupid, my friend.
    Last edited by LogicallyYours; 11-21-2012 at 04:48 AM.
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    "I have read the bible...more than once. I was not impressed nor was I so moved to give up my ability to think for myself and surrender my knowledge of facts for the unfounded belief in a mythical sky-fairy." - Me.

  7. #23
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    Re: Irreversibly Time

    Originally Posted by GHOST DOG
    But the "crux" of your argument...."god created the universe" supposes that your version of god IS the cause.....spiritual being, supernatural being, or whatever your god is to you.

    You still must show that this "causal mechanism," your god exists.
    You misunderstand my comments. I never said God is a causal mechanism. That infers that god is a material being or some kind of computer. God, a supernatural being, created matter and energy which became "causal mechanisms."
    So, you admit that if there is a god, he caused (or created) matter and energy to come into existence, which caused the universe to be.

    In effect, if god created matter and energy like you state, then he is the cause behind all causes.
    That is the sum of the conditions that your words state are true, Cnance.

    My prior post stated this:
    You still must show that this "causal mechanism," (IOW, the "supernatural, non-materialistic god of the bible") your god exists.
    The two terms "cause" and "create" are indeed interchangeable, as Merriam-Webster shows.
    Here is Webster's take on the two terms...first create: (Please take special note of the #3 definition in red)

    cre·ate

    verb \krē-ˈāt, ˈkrē-ˌ\cre·at·edcre·at·ing


    Definition of CREATE

    transitive verb
    1
    : to bring into existence created the heaven and the earth — Genesis 1:1(Authorized Version)>

    2
    a : to invest with a new form, office, or rank created a lieutenant>
    b : to produce or bring about by a course of action or behavior created a terrible fuss> <create new jobs>


    3
    : cause, occasion creates high food prices>

    4
    a : to produce through imaginative skill <create a painting>
    b : design <creates dresses>


    intransitive verb
    1

    : to make or bring into existence something new

    And here is Webster on cause:

    1cause

    noun \ˈkȯz\


    Definition of CAUSE

    1
    a : a reason for an action or condition : motive
    b : something that brings about an effect or a result

    c : a person or thing that is the occasion of an action or state; especially : an agent that brings something about

    d : sufficient reason cause>

    So, if I take the definitions in red from create:
    1. to bring into existence created the heaven and the earth — Genesis 1:1

    3. cause


    1
    to make or bring into existence something new
    And add in the definition from cause:

    b : something that brings about an effect or a result

    c: a person or thing that is the occasion of an action or state; especially : an agent that brings something about
    The two terms, "cause" and "create" effectively mean one and the same thing, in this given scenario.

    So, you are back to square one, by the existing facts, and by your own words....you must find impetus for your god (the cause of all causes) to exist, since he would be the "Prime Mover," if he does exist.

    Not based on physical laws, but on supernatural power.
    Cause is still cause, be it naturally-occurring, or supernaturally-occurring.

    Math models are sophisticated causal relationships.
    There could even be a math model for your god, if there was something to calculate.

    And you have zero basis for proposing a natural cause explanation for the universe.
    On the contrary....I have science, which has all the basis in the natural universe for proposing a workable causal explanation of everything.

    You would just like to apply the same observational, and mathematical techniques to the shaky "supernatural" premise that you defend.

    Not everything! Science has not explained where matter and energy came from, or what caused the big bang.
    Science states that matter and energy came into existence through virtual particles, when they do not interact by mutually annihilating each other, due to a sufficiently strong gravitational field separating them.
    All that science has accomplished is to explain how God did it.
    You still haven't even offered a proposition of what caused your god to come into existence.

    Please show us all the logical need, which must've existed prior to him, in order for him to show up.

    Where is that natural cause explanation?
    It has been given to you....many times....you ought to be able to recite it by heart by now.

    With all due respect, you simply refuse to understand it's implications, since that would create a rift between you and your ego, Cnance.

    Why do I have to show a need for a god?
    Simply because you state that this god is the cause of all causes.

    Actually, I have an explanation for God's need. He created the universe as a prison for Satan.
    Since you've tied your reason-for-a-god-causing-the-existence-of-the-universe-premise to a Satan, now you must show us a need for a Satan, in order to show us the reason for this god is viable.

    You're inferring God is human, therefore a mortal being. Why would God, the only eternal being, need a logical reason to exist?
    Nowhere have I stated, or inferred that your god is human.

    1. It is up to you to show that this god is eternal.

    2. It is up to you to show a prior, logical cause for this god to appear.

    3. After you show viable proof of these first two, you must then show that this god was also capable of causing virtual particles and gravitational fields of sufficient strength to show up, in order to cause matter and energy to appear in sufficient amounts to cause the universe to come into being.

    1. Science has found no reason to rely on this god scenario, since it has found no evidence of him.

    2. Science has already given monumental proof that your god was not needed.

    God is not subject to physical laws, therefore, you cannot attribute human traits to God.
    Prove this statement, right after you show me viable evidence that there was a logical, prior need for this god to appear.

    You'll find some answers in the Bible. However, I don't expect that you would ever stoop that low. I have my own opinions about God related to the Bible, but it would be an exercise in futility. I would expect a lot of psycho babble from you.
    I understand that this your opinion, Cnance.

    I have one interesting proof of God in the universe. God is two entities, both equal in power, glory and holiness. Everywhere you find duality, two eyes, two ears, two limbs, two wings, neutrons and protons, positive and negative charges, computer code, etc. That's God's fingerprint on the universe.
    The roots of Christianity (the Catholic Church) state that god is three persons...the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit.

    By using this logic, why wouldn't we have three eyes, three ears, three limbs, three wings, etc?

    This only proves that you have an emotional attachment to your positions, Cnance.

    Evidently, you're very independent and don't like to be told how to think. Not everyone is that way.
    Yes, I do think for myself, but I don't go anywhere with my thinking, unless I test that which comes to me against reality and fact.

    When I am wrong, I consciously ask for feedback on the subject, and then weigh out the options that I missed.

    I relinquish control to those who are smarter than me, reading them, and working to understanding their terms, proofs, and logic...asking questions and digging deep for differing opinions relating to identical, or tangential subjects.

    I take no subject on it's face, requiring reasoning and logic to express from the subject.

    If it doesn't meet the required logic, then to me and to the trained authorities its only a "square peg" in a "round hole."

    "eternal."
    Other than your conjecture, prove to me what eternal is.
    Because of personal experiences, I have different interpretations of the Bible. As I said, I believe the Bible is humans only record of God.
    And those personal experiences are sacred to you, and to you only, Cnance.
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

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    Re: Irreversibly Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I have one interesting proof of God in the universe. God is two entities, both equal in power, glory and holiness. Everywhere you find duality, two eyes, two ears, two limbs, two wings, neutrons and protons, positive and negative charges, computer code, etc. That's God's fingerprint on the universe.
    spiders for example have more than 2 limbs and 2 eyes

    http://www.mdavid.com.au/spiders/eyes.shtml
    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ience-animals/


    Butterflies have 4 wings:

    http://www.enchantedlearning.com/sub...my/Wings.shtml


    Cows, dogs, cats, have 4 limbs


    snakes have no limbs


    God invented binary code?
    "Believe nothing just because a so-called wise person said it. Believe nothing just because a belief is generally held. Believe nothing just because it is said in ancient books. Believe nothing just because it is said to be of divine origin. Believe nothing just because someone else believes it. Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be true."

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    Re: Irreversibly Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I have one interesting proof of God in the universe. God is two entities, both equal in power, glory and holiness. Everywhere you find duality, two eyes, two ears, two limbs, two wings, neutrons and protons, positive and negative charges, computer code, etc. That's God's fingerprint on the universe.
    Neutrons and protons are 2 out of about 30 or 40 baryonic particles. They just happen to be the two that you learn about in high school. How does that fit into your theory?

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    Re: Irreversibly Time

    Quote Originally Posted by kazza View Post
    Neutrons and protons are 2 out of about 30 or 40 baryonic particles. They just happen to be the two that you learn about in high school. How does that fit into your theory?

    That's easy!

    2X15=30
    2X20=40

    Just kidding...

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    Re: Irreversibly Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I understand your point, but I think you may have confused my posting. I didn't mention special relativity. I was referring to general relativity related to the speed of light.

    I read the link. Interestingly, it proposes the possibility of time going backward, but evidence doesn't support that hypothesis. I understand the possibility of time travel backwards. Could that be a phenomena relative to a forward time continuum? It seems however that as the universe expands, forward time is a constant pulling timelike curves with it.
    speaking of time in a practical way, WHY DO WE HURRY!? is hurrying LOGICAL!? or in say certain circumstances HURRYING will DO NO GOOD!? i just watched the movie VANISHING POINT (skimmed) and it definitely proves, HURRYING can get cha KILLED!? which raises and interesting question about LIFE!? which i already stated..........of course another angle comes to mind, if your hurrying is successful, does it JUST mean someone ELSE gets KILLED, in the random elimination plots of TIME!? so the question might be.......WHO'S behind your TIMELINE (scheduler) and what is the ULTIMATE REWARD!? :rryumy: :freak3: :rain: :bunny:
    i do not endorse/recommend any advertising on scam.com associated with my name /posts or otherwise. thank you

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