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  1. #65
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    Englad
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    Re: Christians and Mormonism

    That was the most succint explanation of the plan of salvation I have seen for a long time.
    Of course it was from one of the acknowledged scholars of the LDS church.

    Who says that Mormon underwera is magical or has any power

  2. #66
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
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    939

    Re: Christians and Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by lisan23
    This supposed destructive cult has done nothing to harm me nor my family. Most of my family remains active. I have been inactive since 18. While I don't agree with their beliefs, I think the assumption that they are a dangerous cult is based on untruths and rumors. Those who practice the LDS religion do so because they believe it's right and it makes them happy. Who are you to judge? It's not a cult at all. I left without a single issue, as have many others. Of course they contact me every now and then, but I simply tell them I have no interest in returning. That's that. My neighbors are almost all LDS. None of them have ever approached me or my husband about going to church. If it WAS a cult I think they would more actively pursue those who are "inactive". But generallly they don't. HOWEVER - like every religion there is always going to be those who are over zealous. Their behavoir is not what I would consider common nor acceptable. Most average LDS people do not care for the "over zealous" ones. And like I stated before, these type of people belong to EVERY religion, just not the LDS one. Their beliefs are different, but you are not the one who has the authority to judge who's right and wrong therefore you DO have a lack of respect for others.

    Now I remember why I stopped posting here.
    Some very good points here. Especially your comments about the “over zealous” members.

    There was a thread awhile back in which the goal of the discussion became to pin down a definition of the word "cult" that everyone could agree on. Some took a definition out of the dictionary, others based it on the Bible (which basically says that anything other than Christianity is a cult) and still others broadened their definition enough so that it included any and all religions. Needless to say, we never came to an agreement on the subject.

    Nevertheless, this is what I wrote as my personal estimation of what constitutes a "cult," and I think it's more or less in tune with the parameters used by society at large:

    "The word "cult" denotes a generally accepted set of behavioral norms, such as systematic brainwashing, a charismatic leadership's control over the day-to-day lives of members, isolation from society, and withholding the true beliefs of the group in the beginning and only letting a prospective member in on the group's secrets once he/she has been gradually acclimated."

    Having read more about Mormonism I’m not totally convinced that it conforms (at least in a universal sense) to all of the parameters listed above. There are extreme, fringe groups (as there are in Christianity) who exercise total control over their followers, but I doubt the majority of Mormons would condone this type of practice.

    The last point, however -- dealing with “gradual acclimation” -- fits the Church of LDS like tailor made suit. The Church dresses itself up for the outside world like just another denomination of Christianity. They pay millions of dollars per year on PR campaigns for this express purpose.

    New members, specifically former Christians, are led to believe they are in familiar territory. In the beginning, they are asked to study the Bible, for the most part. (Nothing new there.) Then, slowly, The Book of Mormon is incorporated into their studies, and they are introduced to the history (or, at least the portions/versions of history that aid their cause) and subsequent theology of Joseph Smith -- the apostate church, the many gods and their spirit children, the multiple levels of Heaven, etc. -- one, tiny step at a time.

    -Y

    bigchas40: I will read and reply to your post shortly.

  3. #67
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    939

    Re: Christians and Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by bigchas40
    Interesting debate you all are having here. I think yossarian has a pretty good handle on what I consider to be the truth. I borrowed the following text from the Christian Apologetics Research Ministry website. I've included a link to the web address below. I encourage all of you to visit this website if you want to learn in more detail about Mormonism (click on the link "What does Mormonism teach?"), Islam, Jehovah's Witness, and many other religions including Christianity. Matt Slick the creator of CARM is a devoted Christian who has thoroughly researched the information provided on his website.

    I am looking forward to reading your many responses to this post, especially from yossarian, lisan23, and Worried in the USA. I am keenly interested in hearing what you have to say about the fact that Mormons are essentially worshiping alien humans from another planet! Strange stuff....enjoy.



    Mormonism in a Nutshell

    Mormonism teaches that God used to be a man on another world and that he became a god by following the laws and ordinances of his god on his home world. He brought his wife to this world, a woman he had married on the other world. She is, essentially a goddess.
    In his present god-state, he rules our world. He has a body of flesh and bones. Since god and his wife are both exalted persons, they each possess physical bodies. In their exalted states as deities, they produce spirit children that grow and mature in the spiritual realm. The first spirit born was Jesus. Afterwards Lucifer was born along with the rest of us. So, Mormonism teaches that we all pre-existed in the spirit realm having been produced from the union of god and his goddess wife. Therefore, we all existed in spirit form before coming down down and entering the bodies of human babies that are being born on earth. During this ‘compression' into the infant state, the memories of their pre-existence is 'veiled.'
    God the father, who is called Elohim, was concerned for the future salvation of the people on earth. In the heavenly realm, the Father had a plan for the salvation of the world. Jesus endorsed the Father's plan. Lucifer did not. Lucifer became jealous and rebelled. In his rebellion he convinced a large portion of the spirits existing in heaven to side with him and oppose god. God being more powerful then they, cursed these rebellious spirits to become demons. They can never be born in human bodies.
    The remaining spirits sided with God. Since they chose the better way, when it comes time for them to live on earth, they have the privilege of being born in races and locations that are relative to their condition and choice made in the spirit realm.1
    In the Mormon plan of salvation there needed to be a savior: Jesus. But Jesus was a spirit in heaven. For him to be born on earth, Brigham Young the second prophet of the Mormon church said that instead of letting any other man do it, God the Father did it with Mary. He said that the birth of our savior was as natural as the birth of our parents. Essentially, what this means is that Brigham Young taught that god the father came down and had relations with Mary, his spirit daughter, to produce the body of Jesus. Though many Mormons will not entertain such incestuous thoughts about God and Mary, this is what Brigham Young taught and as far as we know, this has not been denied by the Mormon church.
    Nevertheless, Jesus was born, got married, and had children.2 He died on the cross and paid for sins -- but not on the cross only. According to Mormonism, the atonement of Christ was not only on the cross. It began in the Garden of Gethsemane before he went to the cross.
    In Mormonism, men and women have the potential of becoming gods. President Lorenzo Snow said, "As god once was, man is. As God is, man may become." In order to reach this exalted state of godhood, a person must first become a good Mormon, pay a full ten percent tithe to the Mormon church, follow various laws and ordinances of the church, and be found worthy. At this point, they receive a temple recommend whereupon, the Mormon is allowed to enter their sacred temples in order to go through set of secret rituals: baptism for the dead, celestial marriage, and various oaths of secrecy and commitment. Additionally, four secret handshakes are taught so the believing Mormon, upon entering the third level of Mormon heaven, can shake hands with god in a certain pattern. This celestial ritual is for the purpose of permitting entrance into the highest level of heaven.3 For those who achieve this highest of heavens, exaltation to godhood awaits them. Then, he or she, will be permitted to have his or her own planet and be the god of his own world and the Mormon system will be expanded to other planets.

    _____________________
    1. Page 616 of Mormon Doctrine by Bruce R. McConkie
    2. Jedediah M. Grant, second Counselor to Brigham Young said so in Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, pp. 345-346.
    Apostle Orson Hyde stated it in, vol. 2: 210, 328; vol. 4:259-260; vol. 13:309; Millennial Star, Vol. 15, p. 825; The Seer, page 172, 158, -- Note: These references are not official Mormon scripture and there is disagreement in acceptance of this teaching among Mormons.
    3. What's Going on in There? An Exposing of the Secret Mormon Temple Rituals, by Bob Witte & Gordon H. Fraser. Gordon Fraser, Publisher.

    Please see 'What does Mormonism teach?' for further documentation of Mormon beliefs.www.carm.org

    Good post. As far as I can tell -- and based on my own research -- the above description is accurate. I suspect that most people who defend Mormonism as "just another Christian faith" are not aware of the drastic foundational differences in their belief system.

    It's not a religion about faith in the way Christianity is. It's a religion about dogma, rituals, and the attainment of godhood... so blatantly counter to the very core of Christianity that it's difficult to even know where to begin.

    -Y

  4. #68
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    2,505

    Re: Christians and Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by yossarian
    Good post. As far as I can tell, the above description is accurate. I suspect that most people who defend Mormonism as "just another Christian faith" are not aware of the drastic foundational differences in their belief system.

    It's not a religion about faith in the way Christianity is. It's a religion about dogma, rituals, and the attainment of godhood... so blatantly counter to the very core of Christianity that it's difficult to even know where to begin.

    -Y
    Mormonism is not a "Cult"

    It is "Occult"

  5. #69
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    716

    Re: Christians and Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald
    I'm a self-proclaimed Christian! :rolleyes:

    Apparently, Mormonism isn't based purely on the Bible, but on this book by Joseph Smith. I haven't read it. But from what I hear, Mormons aren't considered Christians by other Christian sects because of some sort of fundamental difference in theology. I don't know what that it is. Here's a Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism

    I don't know much about the situation, but my gut tells me not to trust Mitt Romney. You may ask why. Well... check out this stained glass window of Joseph Smith:



    Yikes! You're not even supposed to be able to lay eyes on the Father. This is so conceited, cartoonish, theologically incorrect and just dumb.

    Jesus is a manifestation of God. They're not two seperate people. This image is like having Jesus standing beside the burning bush. Why both? They both are of the same mind. Only one is needed. It's just seems really wacky.

    And who takes a stroll through the woods in a business suit? Is Bambi hiding behind a tree?

    No, I don't think it's a good idea to have Mitt Romney as a president. This mural alone is enough to make me cringe at the idea.
    You don't know what the fundamental difference is??? It's really very simple. Christianity derives its basic doctrine from one source, the Bible. That's it, pure and simple.
    A giant mushroom cloud, 24 empty missile tubes... It's Miller Time!

  6. #70
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    716

    Re: Christians and Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronald
    I'm a self-proclaimed Christian! :rolleyes:

    Apparently, Mormonism isn't based purely on the Bible, but on this book by Joseph Smith. I haven't read it. But from what I hear, Mormons aren't considered Christians by other Christian sects because of some sort of fundamental difference in theology. I don't know what that it is. Here's a Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism

    I don't know much about the situation, but my gut tells me not to trust Mitt Romney. You may ask why. Well... check out this stained glass window of Joseph Smith:



    Yikes! You're not even supposed to be able to lay eyes on the Father. This is so conceited, cartoonish, theologically incorrect and just dumb.

    Jesus is a manifestation of God. They're not two seperate people. This image is like having Jesus standing beside the burning bush. Why both? They both are of the same mind. Only one is needed. It's just seems really wacky.

    And who takes a stroll through the woods in a business suit? Is Bambi hiding behind a tree?

    No, I don't think it's a good idea to have Mitt Romney as a president. This mural alone is enough to make me cringe at the idea.
    You said "But from what I hear, Mormons aren't considered Christians by other Christian sects because of some sort of fundamental difference in theology. I don't know what that it is."

    You know exactly what that is Ronald. You said it yourself in your first sentence.
    "Apparently, Mormonism isn't based purely on the Bible, but on this book by Joseph Smith."

    Thats the fundamental difference Ronald. It's what separates Christianity from all other religions.
    A giant mushroom cloud, 24 empty missile tubes... It's Miller Time!

  7. #71
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    716

    Re: Christians and Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by Rusted
    I've known a Mormon. Only two-fisted-drinking Mormon that I ever heard of. Smoking too. Who knows, the Reformed Mormon Church someday?

    Mormons are OK but I'll never be one. I see no problem with a Mormon president. We got a bible-thumper in there already. What's the diff?
    You think the Masons are secretive? Hahaha, not even close compared to Mormons.
    A giant mushroom cloud, 24 empty missile tubes... It's Miller Time!

  8. #72
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    939

    Re: Christians and Mormonism

    Quote Originally Posted by USNavySubSailor
    You think the Masons are secretive? Hahaha, not even close compared to Mormons.
    That said, with the exception of rogue sects, they aren't nearly as dangerous as Scientologists, in t.erms of the irreparable psychological (and, in some cases, physical) damage that Cruise's cult can do to people.

    However, I did see a man interviewed a few years back who had been a member of the Church of LDS and a homosexual. One of the church leaders found out about his lifestyle and decided to take it upon himself to cure the man of his sexual deviance.

    His method was to lock the man a room by himself, strap the man to electrodes, put in a tape of violent, gay pornography and administer electric shocks over the course of the viewing. This went on for several weeks until the man finally left the church. But the damage had already been done, and he has had to attend extensive counseling to cope with his memory of the experience in the years since.

    I doubt this is a common type of thing, but it is one example of the extremes some of its members have been capable of in the past. (Of course, you could probably find isolated instances of this same breed of insanity in hyper-fundamentalist Christian churches as well, so it's really a matter of extremism v. non-extremism.)

    -Y

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