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  1. #1
    blaze33 Guest

    The Bible: Is It Fallible Or Infallible?

    I have a question and it is not to knock the christian faith, but rather it is an attempt to see if the christian faith is consistent with their profession.

    To make it simple, I believe we must define fallible and infallible, because the responses I get seem like all have different definitions of what it means.

    Allow me to try to define and respond accordingly please:

    INFALLIBLE as told by me from christians: The word of god was written by mere men, but were inspired by God to write His word exactly the way he wanted his message heard and read, therefore it is a word WITHOUT ERROR

  2. #2
    blaze33 Guest

    Re: The Bible: Is It Fallible Or Infallible?

    Quote Originally Posted by blaze33
    I have a question and it is not to knock the christian faith, but rather it is an attempt to see if the christian faith is consistent with their profession.

    To make it simple, I believe we must define fallible and infallible, because the responses I get seem like all have different definitions of what it means.

    Again please note, it has been said I am trying to attack the christian faith. NO I am not. I am attempting to find logic to the profession of the faith of believers who say the bible lost some meaning in translation or some error by the writers of God's 66 books.

    That is where I see two different messages from one believer who believes the word of God is INFALLIBLE, and another who believes it is FALLIBLE by the definition I just listed below.

    Allow me to try to define and respond accordingly please:

    INFALLIBLE as told by me from christians: The word of god was written by mere men, but were inspired by God to write His word exactly the way he wanted his message heard and read, therefore it is a word WITHOUT ERROR
    FALLIBLE: The word of God WITH error for whatever reason, i.e, mistranslations, men writing who may have got their own views tied in with the message they were inspired to write.

  3. #3
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    Re: The Bible: Is It Fallible Or Infallible?

    According to scripture reference "... holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." This does not mean that God Spoke... it states "holy men of God spoke"... using their own vocabulary, writing and literary skills.
    In it's "ORIGINAL" form... that is "writing number 1"... the first time it was ever written... you get my drift... there was infallibility according to my initial reference. However, over the countless generations and translations and compilations ad infinitum... the "original" meanings have been lost. As a result biblical translation has become a rather large academic/publishing industry and biblical interpretation is an even larger related industry.

    I don't think you're going to find what you would consider is a satisfactory answer...

  4. #4
    blaze33 Guest

    Re: The Bible: Is It Fallible Or Infallible?

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulM
    According to scripture reference "... holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." This does not mean that God Spoke... it states "holy men of God spoke"... using their own vocabulary, writing and literary skills.
    In it's "ORIGINAL" form... that is "writing number 1"... the first time it was ever written... you get my drift... there was infallibility according to my initial reference. However, over the countless generations and translations and compilations ad infinitum... the "original" meanings have been lost. As a result biblical translation has become a rather large academic/publishing industry and biblical interpretation is an even larger related industry.

    I don't think you're going to find what you would consider is a satisfactory answer...
    No, I did ,,you answered my question..Now, it is considered because of all of man's handlings of God's word it has now BECOME FALLIBLE.

    Excellent Paul this is exactly what I am getting at.

    Therefore between us, as an unbeliever you cannot use God's word as a final authority anymore than any other book for now it has been tainted.

    By you're belief of what has become of the bible it is no longer the original INFALLIBLE WORD.

    I would tell you between us, therefore you cannot use the bible to prove what God desires of men because it is notw interpretable making WHO God's mouth piece?

    I have found exactly what I am seeking Paul. It is just hard to get christians to see it.

    blaze

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    Re: The Bible: Is It Fallible Or Infallible?

    Hey Blaze :)

    You make a good point, but only IF one is expecting to pick up a volume and see, for lack of a better description, instant clarity. The nature of the texts makes that impossible. The bible is chock-full of middle-eastern cultural goodies... not to mention the figures of speech (which the study of can be a career in itself). Where I'm going with all of this is to demonstrate the necessity of study and research... Of course, the point of research is to learn... not support what one thinks they already know. For example... your quest to verify biblical infallibility. Let's look at biblical prophecy... what, specifically, is being foretold? In that specific prophecy what details are available? How specific are those details? Other things to look for is determining who was a specific section/passage/book written to and why. example: Are the four gospels part of the Old Testament or the New? Who were they written to?
    Your question is a valid one and has been asked many times over the years. The answer... infallibility doesn't just land in your lap... it has to be sought out with an open mind... what you find might not agree with what you've been taught.

    I recall a teacher I had years ago... he stated the phrase "Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the Earth" does not mean the timid or the 'pansy'... in the context it is given the te rm meek means "teachable" or those willing to learn, adapt and change.
    Last edited by PaulM; 11-20-2006 at 02:00 AM. Reason: spelling

  6. #6
    blaze33 Guest

    Re: The Bible: Is It Fallible Or Infallible?

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulM
    Hey Blaze :)

    You make a good point, but only IF one is expecting to pick up a volume and see, for lack of a better description, instant clarity. The nature of the texts makes that impossible. The bible is chock-full of middle-eastern cultural goodies... not to mention the figures of speech (which the study of can be a career in itself). Where I'm going with all of this is to demonstrate the necessity of study and research... Of course, the point of research is to learn... not support what one thinks they already know. For example... your quest to verify biblical infallibility. Let's look at biblical prophecy... what, specifically, is being foretold? In that specific prophecy what details are available? How specific are those details? Other things to look for is determining who was a specific section/passage/book written to and why. example: Are the four gospels part of the Old Testament or the New? Who were they written to?
    Your question is a valid one and has been asked many times over the years. The answer... infallibility doesn't just land in your lap... it has to be sought out with an open mind... what you find might not agree with what you've been taught.

    I recall a teacher I had years ago... he stated the phrase "Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the Earth" does not mean the timid or the 'pansy'... in the context it is given the te rm meek means "teachable" or those willing to learn, adapt and change.

    Yes, but you are taking a different avenue and not staying with the question at hand.

    Let me zero in Paul. The book is fallible. lets take that premise as fact for the sake of moving forward.

    Ok, who are you to tell anyone outside of biblical prophecy what is in error and what isn't. Such as your statements of faith..who say's their is only one way like the new testament say's. Who say's Christ said the things he did?

    Now, my point is, by believing and stating that you believe the bible is infallible what you have done is removed it's authority on the believer and the unbeliever.

    Worse yet, now you place the authority back in the hands of men, when that is exactly what the bible was written for was to take it OUT of the hands and interpretation of man in the first place.

    Do you see more clearly ..All you do by showing me fulfilled prophecy is to tell me that your God cannot preserve scripture, again putting man in the horrible postion of saying what is from God and what isn't.

    blaze

  7. #7
    blaze33 Guest

    Re: The Bible: Is It Fallible Or Infallible?

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulM
    Hey Blaze :)

    You make a good point, but only IF one is expecting to pick up a volume and see, for lack of a better description, instant clarity. The nature of the texts makes that impossible. The bible is chock-full of middle-eastern cultural goodies... not to mention the figures of speech (which the study of can be a career in itself). Where I'm going with all of this is to demonstrate the necessity of study and research... Of course, the point of research is to learn... not support what one thinks they already know. For example... your quest to verify biblical infallibility. Let's look at biblical prophecy... what, specifically, is being foretold? In that specific prophecy what details are available? How specific are those details? Other things to look for is determining who was a specific section/passage/book written to and why. example: Are the four gospels part of the Old Testament or the New? Who were they written to?
    Your question is a valid one and has been asked many times over the years. The answer... infallibility doesn't just land in your lap... it has to be sought out with an open mind... what you find might not agree with what you've been taught.

    I recall a teacher I had years ago... he stated the phrase "Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the Earth" does not mean the timid or the 'pansy'... in the context it is given the te rm meek means "teachable" or those willing to learn, adapt and change.



    Yes, but you are taking a different avenue and not staying with the question at hand.

    Let me zero in Paul. The book is fallible as you have stated. lets take that premise as fact for the sake of moving forward.

    Ok, who are you to tell anyone outside of biblical prophecy what is in error and what isn't. Such as your statements of faith..who say's their is only one way like the new testament say's. Who say's Christ said the things he did?

    Now, my point is, by believing and stating that you believe the bible is FALLIBLE what you have done is removed it's authority on the believer and the unbeliever.

    Worse yet, now you place the authority back in the hands of men, when that is exactly what the bible was written for was to take it OUT of the hands and interpretation of man in the first place.

    Do you see more clearly ..All you do by showing me fulfilled prophecy is to tell me that your God cannot preserve scripture, again putting man in the horrible postion of saying what is from God and what isn't.

    blaze

  8. #8
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    Re: The Bible: Is It Fallible Or Infallible?

    Quote Originally Posted by blaze33
    I have a question and it is not to knock the christian faith, but rather it is an attempt to see if the christian faith is consistent with their profession.

    To make it simple, I believe we must define fallible and infallible, because the responses I get seem like all have different definitions of what it means.

    Allow me to try to define and respond accordingly please:

    INFALLIBLE as told by me from christians: The word of god was written by mere men, but were inspired by God to write His word exactly the way he wanted his message heard and read, therefore it is a word WITHOUT ERROR
    Hello Blaze,

    Let me first start off with some verses.

    All Scripture is God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
    2 Tim 3:16

    ...for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
    2 Peter 1:20
    ****

    It works like this Blaze.
    In the same way that the wind fills the sails of a ship and carries the ship along the waters, in the same way the Holy Spirit filled the prophets and apostles of Christ to write scripture.
    Without violating their vocabulary, and without dictaction, what was produced was infallible and inerrant. Men had written scripture, but it was the Holy Spirit who was the author.
    Oftentimes, the writers didn't know what they were writing, and they had a keen interest in the scriptures that were written by their own hand. But it is the Holy Spirit who is the final author.

    Because of this, all God-breathed scripture is authoritative in all matters of faith and practice. It is the last word.

    Perfect infallibility (no mistake in matters of faith and practice) and inerrancy (no errors) apply to the original autographa.

    So what of today's scriptures?
    The best way I can think of to describe this is in two ways;
    (1) What we have today is inerrant and infallble as it reflects the original autographa or (2) what we have today is inerrant and infallible as it does not deviate away from the original autographa.

    So how far removed are we from the original autographa?
    Concerning the OT, we're virtually dead on. There were but a few verses in question throughout the whole OT that had difficulty, but the Dead Sea scrolls aided in that.

    Things are a bit more difficult with the NT, the first century folks weren't as keen with preserving texts as the Israelites.
    Misspelling of a name or a word, verses or whole passages missing or rotted away...
    But we have over 5000 manuscripts of the various texts of the NT, and with what we have today there is no loss of doctrine. There is a consistency of doctrine throughout the NT manuscripts.
    In other words, what we have today is authoritative.

    Hope this helps.
    Last edited by EveryKnee; 11-20-2006 at 03:55 AM.

  9. #9
    blaze33 Guest

    Re: The Bible: Is It Fallible Or Infallible?

    Quote Originally Posted by EveryKnee
    Hello Blaze,

    Let me first start off with some verses.

    All Scripture is God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
    2 Tim 3:16

    ...for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
    2 Peter 1:20
    ****

    It works like this Blaze.
    In the same way that the wind fills the sails of a ship and carries the ship along the waters, in the same way the Holy Spirit filled the prophets and apostles of Christ to write scripture.
    Without violating their vocabulary, and without dictaction, what was produced was infallible and inerrant. Men had written scripture, but it was the Holy Spirit who was the author.
    Oftentimes, the writers didn't know what they were writing, and they had a keen interest in the scriptures that were written by their own hand. But it is the Holy Spirit who is the final author.

    Because of this, all God-breathed scripture is authoritative in all matters of faith and practice. It is the last word.

    Perfect infallibility (no mistake in matters of faith and practice) and inerrancy (no errors) apply to the original autographa.

    So what of today's scriptures?
    The best way I can think of to describe this is in two ways;
    (1) What we have today is inerrant and infallble as it reflects the original autographa or (2) what we have today is inerrant and infallible as it does not deviate away from the original autographa.

    So how far removed are we from the original autographa?
    Concerning the OT, we're virtually dead on. There were but a few verses in question throughout the whole OT that had difficulty, but the Dead Sea scrolls aided in that.

    Things are a bit more difficult with the NT, the first century folks weren't as keen with preserving texts as the Israelites.
    Misspelling of a name or a word, verses or whole passages missing or rotted away...
    But we have over 5000 manuscripts of the various texts of the NT, and with what we have today there is no loss of doctrine. There is a consistency of doctrine throughout the NT manuscripts.
    In other words, what we have today is authoritative.

    Hope this helps.

    Great!! Yaaaa!! Finally someone who understands my question and answers it accordingly.

    All christians!! Please read EVERYKNEES'S answer to me. Paul was close but wavered by trying to show the bible is true even though you can't believe it is infallible.

    This is what I am asking ,can you please state ya or na, and explain why like everyknee and paul have done.

    Please state your beliefs fallible or infallible..and that is it. After you all answer then I will ask you the question I had asked at first and no one understood my question. This is much easier.

    I am trying to get at ..how important is it for the word of god to be infallible or is it not important at all.(do not answer this question now, but this is my original question).

    Just answer do you believe is it fallible or infallible only ..thanks, and I apologize I was too blunt..I really desire your opinions because I cannot share mine adequately until we are all on the same page.

    So far the tally is 50-50 among the professing christians.

    Tally:

    Everyknee Infallible through and through 100%
    Paul FALLIBLE, except biblical prophecy.

  10. #10
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    Re: The Bible: Is It Fallible Or Infallible?

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulM
    According to scripture reference "... holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." This does not mean that God Spoke... it states "holy men of God spoke"... using their own vocabulary, writing and literary skills.
    In it's "ORIGINAL" form... that is "writing number 1"... the first time it was ever written... you get my drift... there was infallibility according to my initial reference. However, over the countless generations and translations and compilations ad infinitum... the "original" meanings have been lost. As a result biblical translation has become a rather large academic/publishing industry and biblical interpretation is an even larger related industry.
    .
    The original language of the bible doe not always translate well into English. There

    ********************************

    Something for Blaze:

    What is the Bible?

    Most people think of the Bible as a book, like a long and complicated novel with too many oddly named characters and not enough plot. Pick up a Bible. Hold it in your hand. No question about it. It is a "book." But it is vastly more. The word "Bible" come from the medieval Latin biblia, a single word derived from the Greek biblia, meaning "books." To add to this little word history: the city of Byblos was an ancient Phoenician coastal city in what is now Lebanon. The Phoenicians invented the alphabet we still use and taught the greeks how to write. From Byblos, the Phoenicians exported the papyrus "paper" in which early "books" were written. (Papyrus is actually a reedlike plant; strips of the plant were soaked and woven together. When dried, they formed a writing "paper.") While byblos originally meant "papyrus" in Greek, it eventually came to mean "book," and books are therefore named after this city.

    So, in the literal sense, the Bible is not a single book but an anthology, a collection of many small books. In and even broader sense, it is not just an anthology of shorter works but an entire library. You might think of a library as a physical place, but it can also mean a collection of books. And the Bible is an extraordinary gathering of many books of law, wisdom, poetry, philosophy, and history, some of them four thousand years old. How many books this portable library contains depends on which Bible you are clutching. The Bible of a Jew is different from the Bible of a Roman Catholic, which is different from the Bible of a Protestant.

    Written over the course of a thousand years, primarily in ancient Hebrew, the Jewish Bible is the equivalent of Christianity's Old Testament. For Jews, there is no New Testament. They recognize only those Scriptures that Christians call the Old Testament. Both the Jewish Bible and Christian Old Testament contain the same books, although arranged and numbered in a slightly different order. Unless you hold the Jerusalem Bible, popular among Roman Catholics: it contains about a dozen books that Jews and Christians don't consider "Holy Scripture." But that's another story, one that comes later in the Bible's history. In Jewish traditions, their Bible is also called a Tanakh, an acronym of the Hebrew words "Torah" (fpr "law" or "teaching"), Nevi'im ("the Prophets") and Kethuvim ("the Writings'). These are the three broad divisions into which the thirty-nine books of Hebrew scripture are organized.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    For Christians, who worship the same One God of Judaism, this Old Testament is a significant part of their religion and traditions, but it is only part of the story. Because their Bible also includes a "second act" or sequel, the New Testament, which tells the story of Jesus, a man Christians believe was the son of God. Its twenty-seven additional books recount how Jesus' followers, most of them devout Jewish men and women, established the Christian church just about two thousand years ago.

    But this quick, literal answer to the basic question of what the Bible is dodges the main issue. Some people would confidently reply that the Bible is the divinely inspired word of God, given to humankind through God's prophets. In other words, God dictated these Bible books word for word in his divine "stenography pool."

    Centuries of research into the Bible presents a far more complicated picture: the Bible is the culmination of an extended process-covered with centureis of inky human fingerprints-of storytelling, writing, cutting and pasting, translating, and interpreting. That process began about four thousand years ago, and involved many writers working at different times- a fact that may still come as a distinct surprise to a good many readers.
    ***********************************

    See next post Blaze.

    Lady Mod
    Last edited by sojustask; 11-20-2006 at 05:19 AM.

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    Re: The Bible: Is It Fallible Or Infallible?

    What's a "testament"?

    If the Bible really starts out as Jewish document, and they don't call it a "testament," where does the word come from? And what does it mean?

    The word "testament" has come to mean several things. Most people prefer to put off thinking about the word when it comes to that unpleasantness, your "last will and testament." In this strictly legal sense, it means a document providing for the disposal of your earthly good after you die.

    Another common use for "testament" is as evidence of something-for instance, "The Holocaust is testament to Hitler's evil."

    But the old way in which the word was used to describe these holy writings meant something quite different. "Testament" was another word for "covenant" - meaning an agreement, contract, or pact. For Christians, the Old Testament represented the ancient deal or "covenant" struck between God and his people. In the New Testament, however, Christians think they got a "New Deal" through the life, death, and ressurrection of Jesus.

    Many Christians think that this means they can simply throw out the old books and stick with the new, or skip over all that long, boring "old stuff". But the New Testament does not replace the Old. To Christians, it supplements, expands, and completes that "old contract." In the sports world, they call it a contract extension, the old agreement is renewed with more profitable ter_ms.

    Jesus himself was familiar with the "old contract." He was a good Jewish boy who studied the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. He could cite them by heart when he was twelve. Of course, Jesus wouldn't have possessed a Bible to study his lessons. When he was a boy, there was no "Bible". Books didn't exist. More likely he would have learned by rote from scrolls kept by local religious teachers, or "rabbis." The ancient books of Hebrew later collected as the Bible were written on papyrus or leather, stitched together, and rolled into long scrolls. Until recently, the oldest known copies of Hebrew scrolls came from medieval times, around the year 1000.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    More coming....
    Last edited by sojustask; 11-20-2006 at 05:21 AM.

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    Re: The Bible: Is It Fallible Or Infallible?

    "Testament" is another word for "Covenant"

    and I actually didn't want to start a debate or a yay or nay. Oh well.

    I'll need to clarify something to Blaze...

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    Re: The Bible: Is It Fallible Or Infallible?

    Quote Originally Posted by blaze33
    Great!! Yaaaa!! Finally someone who understands my question and answers it accordingly.

    All christians!! Please read EVERYKNEES'S answer to me. Paul was close but wavered by trying to show the bible is true even though you can't believe it is infallible.

    This is what I am asking ,can you please state ya or na, and explain why like everyknee and paul have done.

    Please state your beliefs fallible or infallible..and that is it. After you all answer then I will ask you the question I had asked at first and no one understood my question. This is much easier.

    I am trying to get at ..how important is it for the word of god to be infallible or is it not important at all.(do not answer this question now, but this is my original question).

    Just answer do you believe is it fallible or infallible only ..thanks, and I apologize I was too blunt..I really desire your opinions because I cannot share mine adequately until we are all on the same page.

    So far the tally is 50-50 among the professing christians.

    Tally:

    Everyknee Infallible through and through 100%
    Paul FALLIBLE, except biblical prophecy.
    Hi Blaze,

    I want to clarify something.
    I believe that there is no loss of doctrine.

    Also, concerning the Johannine passage (1 John 5:8) I really think the KJ gets it right.
    But what we have today, be it the NAS, KJ, ESB...yes, I believe we have today 100% infallibility in matters of faith and practice.

    Not sure what Paul believes. I hope he believes the same thing.

    Whether or not anyone believes Jesus wept is one thing.
    Whether or not some believes that Jesus is Jehovah is a really BIG thing...

  14. #14
    blaze33 Guest

    Re: The Bible: Is It Fallible Or Infallible?

    Quote Originally Posted by sojustask
    What's a "testament"?

    If the Bible really starts out as Jewish document, and they don't call it a "testament," where does the word come from? And what does it mean?

    The word "testament" has come to mean several things. Most people prefer to put off thinking about the word when it comes to that unpleasantness, your "last will and testament." In this strictly legal sense, it means a document providing for the disposal of your earthly good after you die.

    Another common use for "testament" is as evidence of something-for instance, "The Holocaust is testament to Hitler's evil."

    But the old way in which the word was used to describe these holy writings meant something quite different. "Testament" was another word for "covenant" - meaning an agreement, contract, or pact. For Christians, the Old Testament represented the ancient deal or "covenant" struck between God and his people. In the New Testament, however, Christians think they got a "New Deal" through the life, death, and ressurrection of Jesus.

    Many Christians think that thes means they can simply throw out the old books and stick with the new, or skip over all that long, boring "old stuff". But the New Testament does not replace the Old. To Christians, it supplements, expands, and completes that "old contract." In the sports world, they call it a contract extension, the old agreement is renewed with more profitable terms.

    Jesus himself was familiar with the "old contract." He was a good Jewish boy who studied the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. He could ciet them by heart when he was twelve. Of course, Jesus wouldn't have possessed a Bible to study his lessons. When he was a boy, there was no "Bible". Books didn't exist. More likely he would have learned by rote from scrolls kept by local religious teachers, or "rabbis." The ancient books of Hebrew later collected as the Bible were written on papyrus or leather, stitched together, and rolled into long scrolls. Until recently, the oldest known copies of Hebrew scrolls came from medieval times, around the year 1000.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    More coming....

    JUST READ THE FRONT PAGE: OLD TESTAMENT,,THEN GO TO THE NEW: AND IT SAY'S ; NEW TESTAMENT

    Are you telling me you missed the Headings of these TESTAMENTS??!! That's where I read it Ladymod.

    Man you christians are making this real hard. I think I hit a nerve,which is the very point I brought it up. See why I am perplexed with you guys?

    Everyknee doesnt' even want to go there and all have tried to side step my piont blank question and twist my question into something I HAVE NOT ASKED! ,hence the reason I was blunt with Hotparadox. Sadly she thinks I am playing games, but she is one of the few that even asnwered the question straight up.
    blaze

  15. #15
    blaze33 Guest

    Re: The Bible: Is It Fallible Or Infallible?

    Quote Originally Posted by sojustask
    What's a "testament"?

    If the Bible really starts out as Jewish document, and they don't call it a "testament," where does the word come from? And what does it mean?

    The word "testament" has come to mean several things. Most people prefer to put off thinking about the word when it comes to that unpleasantness, your "last will and testament." In this strictly legal sense, it means a document providing for the disposal of your earthly good after you die.

    Another common use for "testament" is as evidence of something-for instance, "The Holocaust is testament to Hitler's evil."

    But the old way in which the word was used to describe these holy writings meant something quite different. "Testament" was another word for "covenant" - meaning an agreement, contract, or pact. For Christians, the Old Testament represented the ancient deal or "covenant" struck between God and his people. In the New Testament, however, Christians think they got a "New Deal" through the life, death, and ressurrection of Jesus.

    Many Christians think that thes means they can simply throw out the old books and stick with the new, or skip over all that long, boring "old stuff". But the New Testament does not replace the Old. To Christians, it supplements, expands, and completes that "old contract." In the sports world, they call it a contract extension, the old agreement is renewed with more profitable terms.

    Jesus himself was familiar with the "old contract." He was a good Jewish boy who studied the Torah, Prophets, and Writings. He could ciet them by heart when he was twelve. Of course, Jesus wouldn't have possessed a Bible to study his lessons. When he was a boy, there was no "Bible". Books didn't exist. More likely he would have learned by rote from scrolls kept by local religious teachers, or "rabbis." The ancient books of Hebrew later collected as the Bible were written on papyrus or leather, stitched together, and rolled into long scrolls. Until recently, the oldest known copies of Hebrew scrolls came from medieval times, around the year 1000.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    More coming....

    OK, thanks for a very good lesson, but I dont' think we need to go there. yes, you have made good points. but even some of your authors called it a testament. So, what if it used as a covenant, same thing for the most part.

    Fallible again means it has not properly represented the original intent of the author as well.
    blaze

  16. #16
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    Feb 2005
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    12,866

    Re: The Bible: Is It Fallible Or Infallible?

    The History of the Holy Scriptures that modern Jews and Christians study is a fantastic story in itself, a tale out of an Indiana Jones movie. It is still unfolding with each new archaeologial dig and discovery of an ancient scroll. Once armed with little more than pith helments, pick and shovel, and a magnifying glass, modern researchers are now aided by satellite photographs, spectroscopes and infrared readers that can date and analyze old parchments. Astonishing discoveries during the past few decades of great libraries of ancient writing have added immensely to our knowledge of biblical times and languages. And with the help of linguistic computers and instant communications links to vast worldwide libraries, sholars continue to unravel the secrets of the Bible.

    Yet, whole the depth of our knowledge grows, the answer to a basic and extraordinary question largely remains a mystery: Who wrote the Bible? In spite of tremendous strides in scholarship and research dedicated to the question, the fact remains: no one really knows. And we will probably never know, short of some archaeological find of earthshaking significance. But it is safe to say that the King James Version familiar to most English-speaking Christians and all the other versions loading down the bookstore shelves are only recent links near the end of a long chain of troubled, sometimes badly garbled, and often conflicting translations.

    This is the first blow to the plausibility of The Bible Code, the publishing sensation that claims that the Bible contains a systematic code that, when unscrambled, has predicted world events of the past, present, and future. The authors of that book claimed to use a version of biblical text that is "the original version of the Old Testament, the bible as it was first written," and that there is "a universally accepted original Hebrew test." No such text exists. The Old Testament or Hebrew Bible exists in a variety of forms, all reflecting different translations over the past few centuries.

    Questionable Bible codes aside, these various translations over the centuries have shaped perceptions of the Bible and what people believe it says....

    First, researchers have learned that some of what appears in the most ancient sections of the Bible, including some of the stories in Genesis, was probably "borrowed" from other more ancient civilizations, particularly those of Egypt and Babylon. Various aspect sof the Laws that God gives Moses in Exodus are similar to Babylonian laws known as the Code of Hammurabi, which is a few centuries older than the Bible. The story of the infant Moses set afloat in a basket is similar to the Mesopotamian legen of an ancient king named Sargon. Some of the wisdom found in the biblical Proverbs sounds remarkably like the sayings of an Egyptian sage named Amen-em-ope who lived around the time of Solomon, the ostensible author of Proverbs. In other words, the authors of the Bible, like writers before and since, were not above liberal borrowing, or what modern writers call "fair use."

    The beginning of the actual process of writing down what Jews called the Tanakh and what Christians call the Old Testament dates back more than three thousand years to approximately 1000 BCE. The actual process of writing down the Scriptures followed an oral tradition that goes back at least another thousand years.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    For more information, Blaze, I recommend the book "Don't Know Much About The Bible" by Kennety C. Davis.

    I believe you will find it a fascinating and enlightening read as well as find answers to your many questions. Before you start chortling though, read my next post for the final analysis of the author...

    Namaste'

    Lady Mod
    Last edited by sojustask; 11-20-2006 at 05:23 AM.

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