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  1. #17
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    Re: Roman Catholic Catechisms vs. Bible

    There's an element of sincerety, Ruby, which to a point I do appreciate. But I think you understand that sincerety isn't enough.
    Nevetheless, thanks for not attacking me - you've been most gracious up to this point...
    Quote Originally Posted by rubyslippers
    First we do agree that one is saved by the blood of Christ and that on its own is sufficient for a soul to be saved. The Bible is very clear on this. Also the soul is justified to God under the same conditions as in a free soul not innocent due to age or infirmity is blessed by Gods grace baptism clears the slate.
    I would say you and I agree concerning the first sentence, but if this is the case, then you are not Roman Catholic, because this smacks right in the face of the Catechisms.
    According to the Catechisms (please re-read the above posts) - it is at the end of a person's life when it is determined if a person will be justified or not - it is faith + works.

    If you believe that a person is saved by the blood of Jesus Christ, then by definition you are not Roman Catholic as far as the Roman Catholic church is concerned. In other words, five hundred years ago you would have been burned as a heretic.

    I've met Roman Catholics who are truly saved, and they've told me they disagee with the teachings of their church (which has to be asked "Then why are you attending a Roman Catholic church?"). About a 1/3rd of my baptist church are ex-Roman Catholics who had finally left that system.

    Now, when you say "baptism clears the slate" - you mean baptised in Christ or by the Holy Spirit, and not by water to be justified?
    If you believe that a person has to be baptised by water to be declared righteous, justified in His sight, then you do believe in a system of good works to be saved...

    Quote Originally Posted by rubyslippers
    Since our church does teach there is a Limbo for the innocent souls not baptised this simple rite and sacrament assures salavation. But at the core Catholic teachings and the protestant ones are not that much different in my opinion.
    Scriptural support would be appreciated, vs. the opinions of men. That would be the difference (the Bible vs. the authority of the Magisterium)

    Quote Originally Posted by rubyslippers
    Where we differ is Chruch Teachings encourage maintaining the soul and to continue the path to grace and heaven by maintaining observance of the Mass which is a symbol of Christs sacrifice. As stated under Vatican 4 is the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church. Old Order Catholics as myself still hold the rite as a daily miracle and this is not forbidden by the Church as a personal reflection of the Mass. Doing other sacraments some of which are not deemed such by protestants such as marriage and doing good works extend the development of the soul and are encouraged by the Church Fathers. The only place we differ here is we make it standardized practice within the Church expected to be followed by a good Catholic. You denominations make such acts voluntary and a free gift from the soul but we again have no quarrels here.
    But I have to ask the question again (and the Catechism answers it)...
    do I have to do this performance, this Mass, this sacrament to increase my chances in getting justified at the end of my life?
    If this is the case, then it is works salvation. Which Galatians says is a cursed doctrine.

    Development of the soul, ie sanctification, isn't the issue here. What is the issue is what does it take to have a right standing with God, being justified in His sight. That's the quarrel.

    As a symbol pointing to belief (John 6), then yes, but that's not what the Cathechism teaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by rubyslippers
    As for the continuation of Christs sacrifice at the Conclave of Rome in 1800 the Vatican Theological Counsel set in print and record their position. Although we agree that the act of Christ itself was finished at the cross as the Bible makes it clear. Its the official theology of the Church that the reinforcement of this by rememberance during the Mass maintains the perfect sacrifice in the hearts of the faithful. The Mass which converts the bread and wine to the body and blood of Christ is the daily miracle that Jesus maintains His blessing to those of His church. This teaching is a simplified position but basically Christ died and it was finished, the Mass continues this gift by the daily miracle and before the faithful reaffirms the sacrifice which in turn brings about ones soul being closer to God. So in a manner you are right and in a manner wrong depending on your perspective. A priest would better answer this than I though.
    You're not seeing the contradiction. On one hand you're saying that the one sacrifice is finished, then on the other hand you're saying its a miracle.
    But a miracle of what, of the continuing sacrifice of Christ?
    If the sacrifice is complete, finished, and according to Hebrews 10 Christ sat down - then that means there is no miracle of a re-sacrificing sacrifice.

    It seems to me that you're disagreeing with your own Catechism.
    Let me list it succinctly - this is what the official Roman Catholic position is:
    ********************************
    Justification is a transformation of the soul which begins with removal of original sin and sanctifying grace is infused.

    Initial justification is by means of baptism.

    Adults must prepare for justification through faith and good works.

    Justification is furthered by sacraments and good works.

    Justification is lost through mortal sin.

    Those Roman Catholics guilty of mortal sin can be justified again through the sacrament of penance.

    Salvation from the eternal consequences is a lifelong process, to the very end.

    Salvation is attained by cooperating with grace through faith, good works, and participation in the sacraments.

    Faith is belief in God and the firm acceptance of all that the Roman Catholic Church proposes for belief.

    Sanctifying grace is a quality of the soul, a supernatural disposition that perfects the soul.

    The sacraments are necessary channels for the continual infusion of grace, after the rite is performed.

    Grace is merited by good works.

    Eternal life is a merited reward.

    The Mass, the consecrated bread and wine, are heavenly food which help a person attain eternal life.

    Christ has ordained certain men, Roman Catholic priests, to perpetuate the sacrifice of the cross, which is perpetuated in the Mass. At each Mass, the priest re-presents to God the Father the sacrifice of Christ.
    The Mass is the unbloody sacrifice which atones for the sins of the living and the dead

    ****************
    What is listed here is from your Catechism. It appears you disagree with it, because what the Catechism teaches is justification by good works and that the sacrifice is still being continued, which is totally false.
    Last edited by EveryKnee; 12-11-2006 at 08:02 AM.

  2. #18
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    Re: Roman Catholic Catechisms vs. Bible

    ....And it saddens me to see those evangelicals who battle Christ by adjoining themselves to heretical teachings.

    To reject sound doctrine and be in union with what Galatians says is a cursed gospel is to be in union against Christ...

  3. #19
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    Re: Roman Catholic Catechisms vs. Bible

    EK, is the Book of James in non-Catholic versions of the GT?

    Cos I think that's where a large part of the rub comes in in this faith v works deal.

  4. #20
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    Re: Roman Catholic Catechisms vs. Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by ComplexKid
    EK, is the Book of James in non-Catholic versions of the GT?

    Cos I think that's where a large part of the rub comes in in this faith v works deal.
    It's a matter of understanding the James 2 passage.

    The Roman Catholic position is that to be justified before God its faith + works.

    The Biblilical position (I'd rather say that than 'Baptist' position) is that if there's no works to show that that person had faith to begin with - then that person didn't have saving faith.

    In James 2:25, the passage talks about being "justified." But by whom?
    Romans 3 talks about being declared righteous before God by faith and not by works, but the hingepin in the James 2 passage is found in verse 14:

    "What does it profit, my brethren, if someone SSAAAYYSSS he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?

    This is personal testimony, personal example before other people.
    The "justified" in verse 25 has to do with being recognized as righteous, as a godly person before others. A personal testimony.

    Romans 3 talks about being justified before God. James 2 talks about being justified before people.

  5. #21
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    Re: Roman Catholic Catechisms vs. Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by EveryKnee
    ....And it saddens me to see those evangelicals who battle Christ by adjoining themselves to heretical teachings.

    To reject sound doctrine and be in union with what Galatians says is a cursed gospel is to be in union against Christ...
    EK, if this hard-to-miss large print is directed at me, I do not battle Christ in any way. You misunderstand my position, which simply is while I don't agree with Catholic doctrine, Catholics have a right to represent their faith here as do you or me or anyone else, for that matter.

    Furthermore, you and I are not in the position to absolutely know how God will judge any one of us. Only He knows the hearts of His children and the final decision is His alone.

    Having said that, I think it is commendable that you share the Bible with conviction and certainty, as you always have.

  6. #22
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    Re: Roman Catholic Catechisms vs. Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by HotParadox
    EK, if this hard-to-miss large print is directed at me, I do not battle Christ in any way. You misunderstand my position, which simply is while I don't agree with Catholic doctrine, Catholics have a right to represent their faith here as do you or me or anyone else, for that matter.

    Furthermore, you and I are not in the position to absolutely know how God will judge any one of us. Only He knows the hearts of His children and the final decision is His alone.

    Having said that, I think it is commendable that you share the Bible with conviction and certainty, as you always have.
    Thanks for the gracious answer, and clarifying that you distinquish between the two.
    And I agree that only the Lord knows absolutely, ..but there are texts in scripture that identify false disciples (I know that you know that). But I'm not saying Ruby isn't saved - not sure at this point.

    Ruby seems to disagree with Roman Catholic doctrines, she said that in another thread. In time she'll gain more light than what she has now.

  7. #23
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    Re: Roman Catholic Catechisms vs. Bible

    Actually my local church is joining the Independent Orthodox Church Movement as in breaking off from Rome and annexing to a new Bishop structure. I'm not sure what to do on the one hand they maintain strong traditional orthodox worship but it does mean adopting new policies including married priests ,not being married is still an ideal, and more protestant oriented beliefs.

    But I'm ambivalent leaving the Roman Catholic Church proper.

    But I'm no longer comfortable with the Holy See and like many think they are being at least influenced by the Enemy. Their decisions since the year 1900 has been puzzling and since Vatican 4 has been a serious concern. If it is corrupt than the infallibility of the Pope and the foundation of the church is threatened.

  8. #24
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    Re: Roman Catholic Catechisms vs. Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by rubyslippers
    Actually my local church is joining the Independent Orthodox Church Movement as in breaking off from Rome and annexing to a new Bishop structure. I'm not sure what to do on the one hand they maintain strong traditional orthodox worship but it does mean adopting new policies including married priests ,not being married is still an ideal, and more protestant oriented beliefs.

    But I'm ambivalent leaving the Roman Catholic Church proper.

    But I'm no longer comfortable with the Holy See and like many think they are being at least influenced by the Enemy. Their decisions since the year 1900 has been puzzling and since Vatican 4 has been a serious concern. If it is corrupt than the infallibility of the Pope and the foundation of the church is threatened.
    Well, the reason for this to begin with is that the Pope is not infallible, nor is Peter the foundation to which the church is built upon.

    But note, you do realize there is no such thing as a Roman Catholic church apart from the Vatican - if that's the case then its no longer Roman Catholic.
    The Vatican doesn't take lightly Roman Catholics who are 'cafeteria Catholics' - they pick and choose whatever they want to believe.

    It's either the Catechism, or you're 'bad'.

    But whether you're saved or not (and Christ is Lord over the believer and unbeliever), ask the Lord to have true born-again Bible-Christians sent your way, in your city, to aid you in where to go and what to do (the Bible does talk about those who have the spiritual gift of 'teacher' and 'shepherd-teacher')

    And I'm fully confident that if you do belong to the Lord, if you're His own (and the Lord knows His own), you won't fall through the cracks.

    The Lord be with you.
    Last edited by EveryKnee; 12-13-2006 at 05:12 AM.

  9. #25
    Born2Serve Guest

    Re: Roman Catholic Catechisms vs. Bible

    Roman Catholic Truths-VERITAS

  10. #26
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
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    Re: Roman Catholic Catechisms vs. Bible

    ... Hi Tony

  11. #27
    Born2Serve Guest

    Re: Roman Catholic Catechisms vs. Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulM
    ... Hi Tony
    Hello brother Paul...did you miss me? lol no wait don't answer that :D thanks for the greeting Paul Merry Christmas to you and yours :)

  12. #28
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    Re: Roman Catholic Catechisms vs. Bible

    what!?no merry christmas to SADDAM or a happy new year!?OOPS!?too late!?....by,by,miss american pie,drove my chevy to the levy but the levy was dry!?hehe!!.....just askin...

  13. #29
    ShiningGlory Guest

    Re: Roman Catholic Catechisms vs. Bible

    CATHOLICISM EXPOSED
    VERITAS JESUS IS LORD

  14. #30
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
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    Re: Roman Catholic Catechisms vs. Bible

    Tony why do you keep coming back? You talk to god right so you dont need to talk here.

    Your link ,,just like you,,is just another HATE site

  15. #31
    ShiningGlory Guest

    Re: Roman Catholic Catechisms vs. Bible

    Quote Originally Posted by wazzaa
    Tony why do you keep coming back? You talk to god right so you dont need to talk here.

    Your link ,,just like you,,is just another HATE site
    I MISSED YOU TOO, MY OLD FRIEND!!!!

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