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  1. #1
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    This Country Is Living on Borrowed Time

    I want to discuss something here that has been nagging me. I know most of you would call me a democrat, but I'm really not. I just happen to completely disagree with what most of this current administration is doing. I find i fall in the middle of the two belief systems. So i consider myself Independent. for instance, i'm all about big business and keeping government out of business, except where the welfare of people is concerned. I'm all for a smaller government and less welfare programs, or at least major revamping on the programs that reward laziness...

    I want to talk about the fact that this countries economy is living on borrowed time. Yes we have seen economic growth but it is false growth. What we are seeing is not and increase in the underlying stability of the economy. More so a projected confidence, by some tax cuts that can't be that way forever and a major increase in certain spending in certain areas. ultimately this country does not have the things in place it needs to maintain a strong economy. Let me explain, I'll use it in terms of the stock market.

    A companies share price is reflected on the consumer confidence of the future earning power of that company. When you look at a company you look at things like per share earnings, are they consistently earning money do they have money stock piled away. Do they have a high equity to debt ratio, are they increasing earnings on a yearly basis. That sort of thing. When you look at the government, it fails, miserably. It is decreasing revenue, while increasing debt. At some point that debt has to be paid off. Well where does the governemnt get it's money. The US citizens. So at some point, the government is going to have to cut it's spending and extract that money from our arses...

    If we are at war for two more years, this war which is costing us about 450 billion and is almost totally financed we will be looking at adding billions more to the already 8.5 trillion dollar national debt. They are feuling economic growth but at the expense of bankrupting the US government. It's a tricky situation and it will reach a breaking point. Not too mention the fact that the consumer is just as mired in debt here in the US. This economy is being built on a house of sand. You can't increase spending and decrease revenue and not expect to have negative consequences down the line.

  2. #2
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    Re: This Country Is Living on Borrowed Time

    Quote Originally Posted by cscirpoli
    I want to discuss something here that has been nagging me. I know most of you would call me a democrat, but I'm really not. I just happen to completely disagree with what most of this current administration is doing. I find i fall in the middle of the two belief systems. So i consider myself Independent. for instance, i'm all about big business and keeping government out of business, except where the welfare of people is concerned. I'm all for a smaller government and less welfare programs, or at least major revamping on the programs that reward laziness...

    I want to talk about the fact that this countries economy is living on borrowed time. Yes we have seen economic growth but it is false growth. What we are seeing is not and increase in the underlying stability of the economy. More so a projected confidence, by some tax cuts that can't be that way forever and a major increase in certain spending in certain areas. ultimately this country does not have the things in place it needs to maintain a strong economy. Let me explain, I'll use it in terms of the stock market.

    A companies share price is reflected on the consumer confidence of the future earning power of that company. When you look at a company you look at things like per share earnings, are they consistently earning money do they have money stock piled away. Do they have a high equity to debt ratio, are they increasing earnings on a yearly basis. That sort of thing. When you look at the government, it fails, miserably. It is decreasing revenue, while increasing debt. At some point that debt has to be paid off. Well where does the governemnt get it's money. The US citizens. So at some point, the government is going to have to cut it's spending and extract that money from our arses...

    If we are at war for two more years, this war which is costing us about 450 billion and is almost totally financed we will be looking at adding billions more to the already 8.5 trillion dollar national debt. They are feuling economic growth but at the expense of bankrupting the US government. It's a tricky situation and it will reach a breaking point. Not too mention the fact that the consumer is just as mired in debt here in the US. This economy is being built on a house of sand. You can't increase spending and decrease revenue and not expect to have negative consequences down the line.
    I think you are absolutely correct in your observations cscirpoli. Though Bush keeps tauting the tax cuts as the driver for this economy, I think it is, in fact, the war that is artificially propping up this economy.

  3. #3
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    Re: This Country Is Living on Borrowed Time

    I dont understand how a war that is costing so much can prop up an economy.
    Ive heard this before and I dont get it.

  4. #4
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    Re: This Country Is Living on Borrowed Time

    Quote Originally Posted by goodwitchofthesouth
    I dont understand how a war that is costing so much can prop up an economy.
    Ive heard this before and I dont get it.
    This is just a guess, but because America is at war it boosts the manufacturing industry and there by creates jobs where they wouldn't have existed before. That makes the Dow go up, and the unemployment rate go down.

    I personally don't buy it though. With all the extra pay and sign-up bonus's to our people in the military, the cost to the VA for treating the wounded after they're stateside and not to mention the extra cost that pays for all the extra fuel, ammo and equipment required to fight the war, I just don't see how this can prop up anything.

    Just an opinion though... I didn't research it.

    cscirpoli, I read something years ago when I was searching for the reason why America could have a large debt, but yet it never seemed to effect Americans. This economist said (and I'm paraphrasing) that America could run up a debt 10 times larger than we have ever seen it before, and not have to worry. He said, when we (you and I) have a debt we haven't made payments on, the bank forecloses on us and we are bankrupt. With our national debt it's different. Other countries can't foreclose on us because the reality is, the United States IS the bank.

    It was the only description that ever made sense to me about why the U.S. debt has never effected the working class in America. It's also why I don't worry about the debt today.

    I believe our country has the power and strength to survive, and eventually overcome any debt we incur over time. We didn't reach our level of financial dominance in the world by accident and when you consider how strongly the rest of the world depends on our consumption and our technology to keep them afloat, I don't see how anyone could possibly bet against us.

    .

  5. #5
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    Re: This Country Is Living on Borrowed Time

    JUST A GUESS your A S S!?and the STINK is SWEET to HIGH HEAVEN!?your dream!?but then consider matthew 12:19.....just askin......are you!?....

  6. #6
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    Re: This Country Is Living on Borrowed Time

    First of all, the debt is not $8.5 trillion, it's $49 trillion!

    http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/234/Gov...ial-Report.pdf

    Secondly, you're living in a dream if you think that all those countries who loaned the $49 trillion will keep supplying the goods in exchange for worthless dollars. There will be a fire sale of the country's assets, and all US assets overseas will be seized to repay the debt. The rest of the world can just cut a dead-beat US off, no more oil, no more food, no consumer goods, bye-bye to everything not Made in the USA. You're nuts if you think this can't happen. Not too long ago, the USSR imploded, and highly-educated Russians were left to queue for hours for bread, waving worthless roubles.

  7. #7
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    Re: This Country Is Living on Borrowed Time

    More of a "buy this book" thingee then an actual "news" document. If Rep Jim Cooper was serious, he'd give the book/report to as many people as possible. Quite a few hooks in there, such as "The white house does not want you to read this book.", "this shocking news", and "This Financial Report for America is full of surprises." Currently going for 14.99 retail.

    Think I'll buy some sheetrock for my kitchen instead.

  8. #8
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    Re: This Country Is Living on Borrowed Time

    Yipe, while you're at Home Depot, buy yourself some sand to bury your head in. If you even bother to read the first paragraph, you would have realized that he is publishing this because of the release of the Report by the government on a Friday and TOTAL MEDIA BLACKOUT except for a small blip in the weekend papers. It's NOT NEWS because the News are studiously avoiding this Government Report! Think what this news, that the debt is 6 times what is publicly reported by Bush, will do to this election. So what are you saying? Is Congressman Cooper LYING about those facts and figures?? You have no way of refuting any of the facts as lies do you? You don't because those are FACTS detailed in a recent Government Report! All you have is the accusation that he's trying to sell the book presumably to make money, which he isn't, as he gets only 3 complimentary copies as "payment". You don't have any authority to say that these FACTS are lies, as these stats and figures come from the Government!

  9. #9
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    Re: This Country Is Living on Borrowed Time

    Prefer Lowes, nicer people.

    Rep Jim Cooper is selling a book. He's also running to keep his seat. He is a Democrat. The Administration is Republican.

    Still reads like a book advertisement.

  10. #10
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    The National Debt is $49 trillion, not $8.5 trillion!

    Basically, the 2005 $8.5 trillion figure is, in layman's term, simply what is there in "cash" in the bank right at that very moment, it excludes all paper debt, including credit card debt, future debts like mortgages, etc. More...


    "The 2005 deficit is at least two times, and probably ten times, larger than the Bush Administration will admit. Instead of being $318 billion, the real deficit was $760 billion (if you count veterans and civil service benefits) or $3.3 trillion (if you also count Social Security and Medicare obligations).
    This means that, if you include Social Security and Medicare, the deficit for 2005 was larger than the entire federal budget.
    The Bush Administration and many major media outlets have suppressed this information although it was produced by the Bush Administration itself in the annual Financial Report of the United States, issued by the Treasury Department.
    These new deficit numbers are produced using the accounting that all large U.S. businesses are required by federal law to use: accrual accounting. The U.S. Government may be the last large entity in America to still use cash accounting. Only accrual accounting can handle credit cards and other future obligations.....Cooper wrote the Foreword to the book, which is a reprint of the 2005 official U.S. Treasury Financial Report, issued on Dec. 15, 2005.
    http://www.cooper.house.gov/newsroom..._finreport.htm

    I repeat, the book is a REPRINT of the official 2005 US Treasury Report. Cooper only wrote the Foreword.
    But I guess it is "more accurate" to hear it from Bush's mouth than to ACTUALLY TAKE THE TROUBLE TO READ THE US TREASURY REPORT ITSELF.


    What an enlightened electorate!!! The Founding Fathers must be so proud!!!

    Finally, I found out the entire Treasury Report is available online here:

    http://www.fms.treas.gov/fr/index.html


    Pay attention to Page 37 of the Financial Statement, the deficit is $760 billion, after deducting government operating cost from revenue.

    And here's the excerpt from the GAO Auditor's Report Section of the US Treasury Report at the same website:

    "First, while
    the reported $319 billion fiscal year 2005 unified budget deficit was significantly lower
    than the $412 billion unified budget deficit in fiscal year 2004, it was still very high given
    current economic growth rates and the overall composition of federal spending.8
    Furthermore, the federal government’s reported net operating cost, which included
    expenses incurred during the year, increased to $760 billion in fiscal year 2005
    from
    $616 billion in fiscal year 2004. Second, the U.S. government’s total reported liabilities,
    net social insurance commitments 9 and other fiscal exposures continue to grow and now
    total more than $46 trillion, representing close to four times current GDP and up from
    about $20 trillion or two times GDP in 2000.
    "

    http://www.fms.treas.gov/fr/05frusg/05gao2.pdf

    Now this is the true SCAM. To be honest, I don't give a rat's *ss whom you'd be voting for, there are a few honest clean Republicans as there are a few corrupt Democrats. what I find appalling is the lack of interest in the media or the people in the actual state we're in, the fiscal health of the country. If Cooper were spouting nonsense, he would have been jumped at by Limbaugh, Hannity, Bill O'Reilly by now, and I would be pooh-poohing his book. Republicans used to be fiscal hawks, but I guess not any more. I guess blind trust and faith in your own Party is more important than getting at the truth. If you prefer to stay blind and deaf, that's fine. It's your own life. But the truth needs to be out there somehow for the American people to know!

    I want to be "nice", but it's hard to be when you realize you owe the government the equivalent of a luxury condo!
    Last edited by qwertyuiop; 11-01-2006 at 05:10 PM.

  11. #11
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    Re: This Country Is Living on Borrowed Time

    Simple reason you don't hear about this, the media is censored. They are financed by different entities and when these entities tell them not to run something, they don't. You ever seen an article dissapear out of American news? I have and I truly didn't beleive that the media was censored until I seen it for myself. It was front page on Yahoo News from the AP (associated press) and in the time I took to start a thread about it, it had dissapeared. I looked for it again and I could only find it in foreign papers even though it was a documented statement from the U.N. Human rights council demanding that we shut down our secret prisons. Funny though at the time we denied these prisons and the story didn't come out again until a leak hit the press and our goverment had to come clean about them (although I do remember hearing Rice deny that such prisons exist). Evidently somebody got enought balls to talk about it.

  12. #12
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    Re: This Country Is Living on Borrowed Time

    This is what makes me so mad, the collusion of major media with the government and big corporations like Enron to blind us to the truth until it all collapses like a house of cards. So many of us simply believe that we WILL NOT BE LIED TO again after Watergate. That the news media is a watchdog on behalf of this democracy, exposing wrongdoing and falsehood. But in fact they are all deeply EMBEDED. We can't even get a straight accounting of our liabilities. We owe huge amounts that we're completely unaware of. We think all those billions in Iraq don't matter, that these wars are free! Worse, most of us don't care/have ADD/amnesia/blind faith and will be voting the same dirty, lascivious, corrupt bastards back into office. In fact, how is this worse than Putin and his Soviet era mouthpiece? I'm so sick of it all. I'm convinced the government after Nov. 7th will be the exact same one as before. I see a tsunami of dangers, military, economic, politic, social and the "villagers" are all bickering over what Kerry did or did not say.
    Last edited by qwertyuiop; 11-01-2006 at 07:41 PM.

  13. #13
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    Re: This Country Is Living on Borrowed Time

    Quote Originally Posted by Grim17
    This is just a guess, but because America is at war it boosts the manufacturing industry and there by creates jobs where they wouldn't have existed before. That makes the Dow go up, and the unemployment rate go down.

    I personally don't buy it though. With all the extra pay and sign-up bonus's to our people in the military, the cost to the VA for treating the wounded after they're stateside and not to mention the extra cost that pays for all the extra fuel, ammo and equipment required to fight the war, I just don't see how this can prop up anything.

    Just an opinion though... I didn't research it.

    cscirpoli, I read something years ago when I was searching for the reason why America could have a large debt, but yet it never seemed to effect Americans. This economist said (and I'm paraphrasing) that America could run up a debt 10 times larger than we have ever seen it before, and not have to worry. He said, when we (you and I) have a debt we haven't made payments on, the bank forecloses on us and we are bankrupt. With our national debt it's different. Other countries can't foreclose on us because the reality is, the United States IS the bank.

    It was the only description that ever made sense to me about why the U.S. debt has never effected the working class in America. It's also why I don't worry about the debt today.

    I believe our country has the power and strength to survive, and eventually overcome any debt we incur over time. We didn't reach our level of financial dominance in the world by accident and when you consider how strongly the rest of the world depends on our consumption and our technology to keep them afloat, I don't see how anyone could possibly bet against us.

    .
    That's the thing grimm, with free trade all of the things our country exported are pretty much gone. For a long time the rest of the world bought American made goods, now China, Taiwan, and all these other countries are making the products we once made much cheeper. As countries like China grow and other countries become dominant and their dollar gains strength in the world... It's going to cause our dollar to loose value. So now, other countries won't be as willing to lend to us, because the strength of our dollar isn't there.

    You look at 10 years ago 20 years ago compared to today. I was just thinking about it, there isnt an American company that competes with any electronics. Think about it, TV's, VCR's, Radios. Even American cars are getting pushed out by Japanese and other Asian products. You can;t really buy american anymore and actually buy quality. What people don't understand is that while our country is racking upall this debt, other companies in the private sector are slowly taking american business away. There are compelling reasons behind why that is happening that i won't get into today.

    So here's the gist of what's going on. American companies are getting edged out by other foriegn companies in major sections of the market. The government is on an all out spending spree. This war is costing something like a billion dollars every 4 days. We are financing pretty much the entire thing. The average cosumer, man women and child has 21k in credit card debt (kids can't have credit cards). We have a debt as a country of 8.5 trillion dollars. And as other currency in the marketplace gains strength foriegn investors will take their money there.

    So you';ve got this debt dynamic, spend spend spend, worry about it later very prevelant in our society. It starts with the government, taking away our social security, basically pilfered the pockets of the people of this country. Squeezing that money from the general fund. Then you've got on top of all the spending for the war a national deficit. Nobody has any money for the future. The government extracts it from us. but what happens when 1/3 of this population retires and starts draining money from the government and stops paying taxes...They are going to have to raise taxes and raise taxes. Now all of a sudden we;ve got a nation of people in debt, that already can barely survive on their income, paying 1.5x - 2x in taxes to #1 fend off this huge debt that has been incured #2 Pay social security to 1/3 of the nation. As well the stock market is probably going to take a huge hit when these people pull all their money out to retire. You;ve got this impending dynamic that no one is thinking about or worrying about or preparing for. Because guess what, even a bank can make wrong decisions and terrible moves, and run out of money. That's what we are looking at, I remember when Wells Fargo almost went out of business a few years ago. Back in the early 90's when interest rates dropped and the housing market went crazy, they got too greedy and started lending on ultra liberal terms. Lending on realy high LTV's, so that when people's adjustable rates started to fluctuate and go up and they couldn't afford the property anymore...boom, a ton of theirr inventory foreclosed. Now they had all these houses they had to sell off at less than what they lent on them. It was a disaster, the same thing is about to happen to the US government if itt's not careful...

  14. #14
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    Re: This Country Is Living on Borrowed Time

    Quote Originally Posted by qwertyuiop
    First of all, the debt is not $8.5 trillion, it's $49 trillion!

    http://www.pbs.org/now/shows/234/Gov...ial-Report.pdf

    Secondly, you're living in a dream if you think that all those countries who loaned the $49 trillion will keep supplying the goods in exchange for worthless dollars. There will be a fire sale of the country's assets, and all US assets overseas will be seized to repay the debt. The rest of the world can just cut a dead-beat US off, no more oil, no more food, no consumer goods, bye-bye to everything not Made in the USA. You're nuts if you think this can't happen. Not too long ago, the USSR imploded, and highly-educated Russians were left to queue for hours for bread, waving worthless roubles.
    Well, I think that would be a blessing. We could drill in the vast wasteland
    of the north, the continental shelf, the gulf, put windmills everywhere (whether Teddy aka Jabba the Hutt) liked it or not. We could supply our
    own oil and develop more energy sources, rebuild our manufacturing
    industry...you know, all the ones that have been shipped out of the USA
    in the name of "global economy", being competitive and all that rot.
    Id be more than willing to pay more to see a "Made in the USA" tag on
    anything. We can supply everything we need. We have been sold a
    bill of goods and have been worshipping at the altar of "global" everything.
    Saying goodbye to all the garbage made in China would be a wonderful
    thing....and it would be an end to our supporting a burgeoning country
    that uses slave labor and intends to become a mighty military might.
    How friggin smart is it to run the trade deficit in the so called "free
    economy" while it is only free to one side??? Duh!!!
    :rolleyes:
    So Im for a good dose of isolationism.

  15. #15
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    Re: This Country Is Living on Borrowed Time

    Oh, and I forgot the food! We can easily feed ourselves and let the rest of
    the globe fend for itself.

  16. #16
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    Re: This Country Is Living on Borrowed Time

    [QUOTE=Grim17]This is just a guess, but because America is at war it boosts the manufacturing industry and there by creates jobs where they wouldn't have existed before. That makes the Dow go up, and the unemployment rate go down.

    I personally don't buy it though. With all the extra pay and sign-up bonus's to our people in the military, the cost to the VA for treating the wounded after they're stateside and not to mention the extra cost that pays for all the extra fuel, ammo and equipment required to fight the war, I just don't see how this can prop up anything.

    Just an opinion though... I didn't research it.

    cscirpoli, I read something years ago when I was searching for the reason why America could have a large debt, but yet it never seemed to effect Americans. This economist said (and I'm paraphrasing) that America could run up a debt 10 times larger than we have ever seen it before, and not have to worry. He said, when we (you and I) have a debt we haven't made payments on, the bank forecloses on us and we are bankrupt. With our national debt it's different. Other countries can't foreclose on us because the reality is, the United States IS the bank.

    It was the only description that ever made sense to me about why the U.S. debt has never effected the working class in America. It's also why I don't worry about the debt today.

    I believe our country has the power and strength to survive, and eventually overcome any debt we incur over time. We didn't reach our level of financial dominance in the world by accident and when you consider how strongly the rest of the world depends on our consumption and our technology to keep them afloat, I don't see how anyone could possibly bet against us.



    Considering just how little manufacturing industry we have left I have to
    wonder whose industry we are supporting with the war.

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