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  1. #65
    LogicallyYours's Avatar
    LogicallyYours is offline Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.
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    Re: Atheist have no answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    Not "no answer" ... just "we don't yet know". Not knowing does not equal supernatural cause.


    In the past we didn't know why the sun rose every morning. Was it supernatural? No.

    In the past we didn't know what the bright lights in the night sky were. Was it supernatural? No.

    As yet we don't know how the universe was formed. Was it supernatural? There is no reason to think so, and certainly no precedent.
    Correct.

    We didn't know how species changed over time. Now we know.

    We didn't know how DNA worked. Now we know.

    We didn't know if the Higgs-Boson particle actually existed. Now we know.

    We didn't know what caused disease. Now we know.

    ...and we did all this without out the divine word of the mythical sky fairy.
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    "I have read the bible...more than once. I was not impressed nor was I so moved to give up my ability to think for myself and surrender my knowledge of facts for the unfounded belief in a mythical sky-fairy." - Me.

  2. #66
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    Re: Atheist have no answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
    Correct.

    We didn't know how species changed over time. Now we know.

    We didn't know how DNA worked. Now we know.

    We didn't know if the Higgs-Boson particle actually existed. Now we know.

    We didn't know what caused disease. Now we know.

    ...and we did all this without out the divine word of the mythical sky fairy.
    I agree science has made fantastic advances. The next big leap must be to explain how primitive stages of matter and energy, otherwise known as dark matter and energy, popped into existence.

    Wait a minute, first science must explain where space came from! VPs need someplace to exist. I enjoying reading VP studies where scientist ignore the question, or they have answers of VP phenomena whereby they came from nowhere without explain preconditions for "nowhere." Quantum theories may explain processes, but they don't answer the most essential question. Where did space come from? After all, VPs need a home.

    It's easy to just ignore the problem because science will eventually have all the answers. And yet, are there limits? Scientists have proposed vacuum fluctuation studies to explain the big bang, but those studies don't explain the entire process (origins). For some scientists, the way out of the dilemma is to assume matter and energy are eternal, therefore no supernatural being required.

    Claiming the universe has always existed is illogical. First, you have to negate physical laws, which assumes causal links or a time continuum for matter and energy. Now we have Quantum theories to explain interactions that defy time. It is almost as if there are two worlds, one based on physical laws, the other based on unpredictable or nearly unfathomable VPs.

    According science, dark energy, dark matter (matter and anti/matter), is the soap where everything came from. Studies of the first stages after the big bang detail how matter and energy came into existence. If we are to believe some scientists, matter and energy, consisting of about 4% of the universe, came from primordial soap where physical laws are dysfunctional. That solves our problem. An eternal phenomena (primordial soap) caused a finite world based on physical laws. How utterly amazing.

    Now, we must wait for science to explain it. We're entering the twilight zone, a place where logic is out of date. Maybe, in the future, there will be just a few scientist who understand it. They'll be the high priest of science.

    It boggles the mind, an eternal soap causing a finite universe.:spin2:

  3. #67
    LogicallyYours's Avatar
    LogicallyYours is offline Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings.
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    Re: Atheist have no answers?

    Now, we must wait for science to explain it. We're entering the twilight zone, a place where logic is out of date. Maybe, in the future, there will be just a few scientist who understand it. They'll be the high priest of science.
    For you maybe...Oh, that's right...you just want to have an answer right now so, the mythical sky fairy works for ya.

    Got proof of that mythical sky fairy?
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    "I have read the bible...more than once. I was not impressed nor was I so moved to give up my ability to think for myself and surrender my knowledge of facts for the unfounded belief in a mythical sky-fairy." - Me.

  4. #68
    caligranni is offline ABOLISH I O U' S (investor owned utilities)
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    Re: Atheist have no answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by kazza View Post
    Wow. If I didn't know that you were serious, I would think you were a Poe.

    Let's start simple, shall we....

    In English, you can turn a singular noun into a regular plural by adding an 's' to the end of the word.
    KAZZA - BRAVO, BRAVO!
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  5. #69
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    Re: Atheist have no answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I agree science has made fantastic advances. The next big leap must be to explain how primitive stages of matter and energy, otherwise known as dark matter and energy, popped into existence.

    Wait a minute, first science must explain where space came from! ......... blah blah etc
    You are attempting to suggest that the universe and it's origins are unique, unlike any other area of scientific discovery. But you can only say that because the answer is currently unknown. But thats all it is .... unknown, not supernatural.

    Face it Cnance, if you had been born 1000 years ago you would insert your god into every knowledge gap you could find. It's your bad luck you only appear to have one left ...

  6. #70
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    Re: Atheist have no answers?

    VPs need someplace to exist.
    They are existing in a physicist's brain and in their math, as virtual particles are only a language that physicists use in their work.

    IOW, they are not real, Cnance.
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

  7. #71
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    Re: Atheist have no answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    You are attempting to suggest that the universe and it's origins are unique, unlike any other area of scientific discovery. But you can only say that because the answer is currently unknown. But thats all it is .... unknown, not supernatural.

    Face it Cnance, if you had been born 1000 years ago you would insert your god into every knowledge gap you could find. It's your bad luck you only appear to have one left ...
    About two thousand years ago we would be debating over which Greek or Roman god to worship, or how much we have or have not offended the gods.

    I don't believe religion explains much about our material world. One reason why religion survived the Renaissance was because people found it answered moral questions. As an example, the Ten Commandments influenced legal institutions and governments of western nations.

    I believe my question about time, matter and energy has merit. It is a logical question. How can science explain origins when physical laws are based on finite variables for time and space. To date, there is no evidence for matter or energy creating itself in a finite universe.

    Based on the big bang, the universe has a time line of about 13.7 billion years. There is no evidence for those ideas proposed by Hawking and others for the universe being infinite.

  8. #72
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    Re: Atheist have no answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I believe my question about time, matter and energy has merit. It is a logical question. How can science explain origins when physical laws are based on finite variables for time and space. To date, there is no evidence for matter or energy creating itself in a finite universe.
    So you are saying we don't know yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Based on the big bang, the universe has a time line of about 13.7 billion years. There is no evidence for those ideas proposed by Hawking and others for the universe being infinite.
    Again ... you are criticising a particular scientist, and admitting we don't know yet?

    So? (does not mean god is the answer)

  9. #73
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    Re: Atheist have no answers?

    One reason why religion survived the Renaissance was because people found it answered moral questions.
    There is good evidence that morality superceded religion as a social maxim even before Babylonian times, Cnance.

    http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blog...fore_religion/

    http://content.usatoday.com/communit...1#.UF9K5VHbSSo


    Christianity of the dark ages was also very closely intertwined with the ruling body, giving counsel to it, so it was only normal that the rulers picked up the "Christian" morality flag, as it seemed to keep the locals within the parameters of the law.

    The best teaching to ever come out of the bible is the Golden Rule.

    Those living during those times, who were "in the know," knew that this phrase was true and in place long before the bible put it into words and was spread throughout the world.

    But being led around by the nose by an opportunistic Catholic Church and other religions, using fear, guilt, punishment, and an implausible reward, is not an example of the Golden Rule.

    It is only a very low level of existence, based on obedience and superstition.

    Yet, this stagnant, two-dimensional behavior is still continued and encouraged quite successfully today, by the fear-filled gullible persons among us, who stay stuck in it....

    IMHO, an "outstanding" model for life not based in real personal freedom and security.
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

  10. #74
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    Re: Atheist have no answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    So you are saying we don't know yet?


    Again ... you are criticising a particular scientist, and admitting we don't know yet?

    So? (does not mean god is the answer)
    Based on logic, I don't believe we can ever know. There is no evidence for a non-linear universe, one in which a beginning is not necessary to create matter and energy. Scientists who claim a Godless universe rely on processes related to transformations and changes, never origins for matter and energy. That is why the big bang is crucial, it validates a finite universe.

    Then, because science cannot explain how something (big bang) came from nothing, God becomes the most logical cause. Only God, a spiritual being, can created something from nothing.
    Last edited by Cnance; 09-23-2012 at 03:00 PM.

  11. #75
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    Re: Atheist have no answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Based on logic, I don't believe we can ever know.
    But you dont know.

  12. #76
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    Re: Atheist have no answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by thistle View Post
    But you dont know.
    Neither of us knows. There is no evidence.

    It is however a huge obstacle to overcome, refuting implications of the big band and proving the universe is infinite.

  13. #77
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    Re: Atheist have no answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    There is good evidence that morality superceded religion as a social maxim even before Babylonian times, Cnance.

    http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blog...fore_religion/

    http://content.usatoday.com/communit...1#.UF9K5VHbSSo


    Christianity of the dark ages was also very closely intertwined with the ruling body, giving counsel to it, so it was only normal that the rulers picked up the "Christian" morality flag, as it seemed to keep the locals within the parameters of the law.

    The best teaching to ever come out of the bible is the Golden Rule.

    Those living during those times, who were "in the know," knew that this phrase was true and in place long before the bible put it into words and was spread throughout the world.

    But being led around by the nose by an opportunistic Catholic Church and other religions, using fear, guilt, punishment, and an implausible reward, is not an example of the Golden Rule.

    It is only a very low level of existence, based on obedience and superstition.

    Yet, this stagnant, two-dimensional behavior is still continued and encouraged quite successfully today, by the fear-filled gullible persons among us, who stay stuck in it....

    IMHO, an "outstanding" model for life not based in real personal freedom and security.
    I acknowledge your point. However, I was referring to the Renaissance when science began in western societies. During that period Christian churches dominated most institutions, therefore Christian leaders had a strong influences. It's true that over time their influences have waned, but Christian morality remains a part of western societies.

    Knowing how morality has evolved with human societies, development of organized religion is not surprising.
    Last edited by Cnance; 09-23-2012 at 05:54 PM.

  14. #78
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    Re: Atheist have no answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Neither of us knows. There is no evidence.
    I'm not sure why you are interested in evidence, the supernatural doesn't require evidence. Surely?

    But you make my point. We do not know. Yet. And when we don't know something, your chosen supernatural answer cannot be the "default" as you repeatedly claim.

  15. #79
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    Re: Atheist have no answers?

    i have yo go BACK to a phrase i stated in another thread or this 1!? all men cannot find god but any man can!? i have a DREAM!? and i tried to PROMOTE that dream, and i GOT SHOT!? so anyway, if the dream is INCOMPLETE, go back and FINISH it!? of course, OTHER THINGS may GET in the WAY!? like REMINISCING/SPECULATION!? :judges: :freak3: :spin2: :
    i do not endorse/recommend any advertising on scam.com associated with my name /posts or otherwise. thank you

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