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  1. #49
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    Re: Abraham's promise- Destroys Chritianity, Islam, and Judaism

    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman View Post
    So.....let's look at this....



    If the two witnesses were God....who appointed them to prophesy. And why were they wearing sackcloth?
    God (two witness) appointed himself. If they were poor and their message was mostly mournful, they would wear sackcloth.

    I suppose you believe that the lord of the earth here is satan...but what does it mean when it says that those who try to harm them are devoured by fire and die. Where and when did this happen and in what context? Do you have a source, other than Rev 11?
    I believe Satan is king of the universe and therefore of earth, except when God intervenes. Those descriptions fit God, not Satan. Who else but God has those powers?



    ...so, The two witnesses....or Gods, as you believe, have the power to cause drought, to turn water to blood and to bring plague anytime they wish to...
    Did they do these things at all during the 1,260 days of prophesying? If they did, when and where? If they did not, why is it mentioned?
    They did not do those things. Only God has that kind of power. It was mentioned to eliminate all doubt. Even though those actions may have been justified, God showed mercy.

    When did this happen and why was a beast from the Abyss able to attack, overpower, and kill God(s)?
    God, after giving testimony, allowed Satan to attack him. Satan didn't do the killing. Satan used a Roman soldier to murder Jesus. I have no Bible reference for that, I had a dream. Two soldiers stood over Jesus kneeling on the ground; one soldier repeatedly hit Jesus in the face with his fist, the other soldier stood watching.

    So the dead bodies of God lay in a public square of a great city......where WHO was crucified? God's Lord? And a bunch of folks celebrated the death of God because he tormented everyone with the things mentioned earlier...(plague, blood water, drought) And what city was figuratively called Sodom and Egypt? and not just that, but simultaneously?
    It was in a street in Jerusalem.

    For 31/2 years, Jesus (God) gave testimony to the truth. I believe, rather than offering salvation and performing miracles, he reprimanded them. After telling them the truth about the past and his identity, they became resentful. More than anything else they got tired of hearing unflattering things. When Jesus was murdered they celebrated; they thought they had triumphed over the one who had been the cause of their troubles.



    So....the breath of life FROM God entered them?? Gods, being dead, didn't just resurrect himselves and start breathing again? Then, a loud voice instructed them to come up to heaven. Who told God to come?
    God could resurrect himself. Taking his human body, God then descended into heaven. What would be the purpose of leaving his body on earth? As for the voice, I don't have an explanation, except God may have called himself into heaven. Another possibility is one of his angels, maybe Michael, called him up.



    When did this severe earthquake happen that collapsed a tenth of the city? What city? When were seven thousand people killed in an earthquake during this time period? What time period was it?
    I have researched this, there were several earthquakes during this time, but records are unclear. We do have an account of such an event in Matthew 27:51. "The earth shook and rocks split."

    You raise some interesting questions.

    Here is another thought about the two witness (God). In Chapter 12, "1,260 days" is repeated. I believe this chapter is the story of Satan fighting angels while God (Jesus) was in the world.
    Last edited by Cnance; 10-05-2012 at 02:06 AM.

  2. #50
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    Re: Abraham's promise- Destroys Chritianity, Islam, and Judaism

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    All three major religions trace their origins to Abraham. Show the truth of that, and you destroy the foundations of all three religions! Think about this: people have been searching for the one true religion, the one that can be proven beyond doubt. Yet there are over 38,000 versions within Christianity itself! Adding to that problem, Paul declares in Romans 8:7 that the natural(carnal) mind is enmity against God, and cannot be subject to God’s laws. If our natural minds aren’t dependable, what do we use? The Holy Spirit? Yes, but how in the world can we know we have it if our natural minds can’t show us? The simple fact is, we have no way of proving it, and if we could, we could simply eliminate all the unnecessary religions! We could unite church and state! We coud have a human authority that provably represents God! Instead, we have over 38,000 versions within Christianity alone, and the Muslim religion, anong with Judaism, has its own splintering groups. In this world of such deception, what does Jesus say about it? His statement is both plain and logical: “Then if any man says to you, Lo, here is Christ, or there, believe it not”!
    Believe it not? But all those churches are out there telling us we MUST believe! What in the world is going on?
    It all begins with Abraham. God visited Abraham about four hundred years before he made a covenant with israel at Sinai. But as Paul tells us in Galatians 3;17 , this promise had nothing to do with the covenant at Sinai! Even with the laws given to Israel, the promise still stands! So, if there is such religious confusion, and Jesus himself tells us to avoid all of it, giving us the only logical solution, what does the promise to Abraham have to do with it?
    It is very simple. God told Abraham that these children of “promise”, born to Abraham would someday inherit the world. Not heaven, but the world, right here(Romans 4:13, Revelation s 5:10). That was the deal! Those children, born to Abraham by God’s promise, were to inherit a world ruling kingdom!
    The firstborn of these children was Isaac, born to Abraham’s wife Sarah, who had been barren ad was nearly a hundred years old. Notice, there was absolutely nothing that Abraham could do to fulfill this promise, and he tried! He took Sarah’s handmaid, Hagar, and impregnated her, who bore a son Ishmael. Yet God said this would not be the child of promise, but a child born of Sarah would be the true seal of this promise. Sure enough, as Genesis 21:1-2 tells us, God visited Sarah, and Sarah gave birth to Isaac. Here are the conditions of that promise: Isaac would be the first of many children, all of whom would be born in the same promise ,under the same conditions as Isaac. They would be foreknown(as Isaac was), they were predestined (as Isaac was), and they would be called (as Isaac was). Notice the parallel in Romans 8:29-3. These are the ones that Paul refers to as the “called according to God’s purpose”. Those were the terms, and Isaac filled them all. Notice what Paul said in Galatians 4;28: “Now we brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise”.! Not enough? How about Galatians 3:29: “And if ye be Christ’s then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise”!
    Still not convinced? Paul had already written that our natural minds were enmity against god, so that eliminated ny possible decision procedure that would allow us to decide the one true church, and Jesus himself had told us not to believe in any of them, so Paul tells us that these children, whoever they are, are born under the same conditions, the same process, predestined, foreknown, and called, just as Isaac was!
    After Paul informed us of this in Romans 8:7, and Romans 8:29-30, he then goes into detail to show us that we cannot show ourselves, by any human process , to be any loser to god that anyone else(Romans 9:16-22)!
    But if we have no way of proving it, who are these children? Look at Romans 9:7-15.
    “Neither because they are the seed of Araham, are they all children: but, ‘in Isaac shall thy seed be called’”.
    Notice that Paul shows a distinction between the children who are descendants, and those of Isaac.
    “That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted for the seed”! How much plainer can you get? ONLY those born under the conditions of that promise, born as Isaac, are the actual children of God! Chosen to someday inherit a world ruling kingdom!
    What promise was Paul referring to? Next verse: “For this is the word of promise: ‘At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son’. ” !
    And if that’s not enough, look at verse 11: “(For the children bein gnot yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to the election might stand, not of works but of him that calleth)”!
    Why don’t any of the religions teach that? because it will put them out of business! If God foreknows, predestines, and calls his own children, and if these children are born of that same promise to Abraham at God;s will, there is no way to organize in God’s name! And that means we are free from all organized religion! After Paul clearly describes who these children are, the conditions of their birth, he then goes to pains to show that there simply exists no decisin procedure by which we may show ourselves as one of them! But if that’s true, wouldn’t all attempts to organize in God’s name result in constant splintering and division? Obvously, and that’s why there are over 38,000 versions of Christianity and growing! By the very best human efforts, men cannot organize in God’s name and prove it! Therefore, Jesus told us the truth in Matthew 24:23! But notice what Jesus himself said about it in Matthew 10:34-38: “…I came not to send peace, but a sword.
    “For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
    “And a man’s foes shall be those of his own household”!
    Jesus told us the logical results of all human attempts to worship God by human efforts! Men cannot organize in God’ name, but if the churches told us this, they would all be out of business! They are all frauds!
    Look at these children described in John 1:13: “Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God”.
    Again, plainly stated! Who is the ruler of this world, of this human system of government? Satan(Matthew 4:8-9, Luke 4:6). he is called “the god of this world”, so obviously all attempts to organize in God’s name must be in service to Satan!
    Jesus said “You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free”.. We see in 2 Peter 2:19: “While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for whatever overcomes a man, to that is he brought in bondage”.
    You are free, and there is something amazing happening here right now, on this earth! But the religions aren’t teaching it, because they wish to enslave you to the government controlled by Satan! You can only be free by choosing freedom from ALL power structures of men, both church and state! It is time to set all persons free!
    This is the best articulation of what you believe that I have read to date. I believe you are right on in things pertaining to this life as far as what I am reading also. Most people are appointed to stay under those forces of Satan that you describe as church and state, but some are called out. Today people have more access to that source of freedom than ever before. I think amazing things are happening right now too, there is a revolution of freedom happening, not only in America, but in the whole world, it is like we are waking up.

    I have really been enjoying accepting every different type of person on the planet. That diversity is beautiful, the beast tries to destroy that diversity by organizing that diversity into the same image of itself, church and state. Yet, church and state are necessary for the reason we all come to this earth, to experience death, those who reckon themselves dead to these powers can walk alive in the heavenly kingdom ruling the earth now, that kingdom of God that is within each and every person that is on earth.

    Paul said that the mystery that was hid throughout all ages until JC, is Christ in you, the hope of glory. JC blew the lid off the mystery, we are all the children (christs) of the most high God and come to earth to die as men to give us a true appreciation of the eternal life we all have (which JC is the record of) being we are the children of God himself, our heavenly dad.

    Most people die not knowing this, thus the day of the Lord comes for them as a thief in the night, because they are unaware that they are eternal, and that this is not their home. For those who have the knowledge that God is their dad and that they are eternal as he is, and that this is not their home, the day of the Lord is not a surprise, but just as beautiful as those who are surprised by it like a thief in the night.

    What is the surprise awaiting the athiest, and the ones who believe that they must do something, organize into something to please God or become like him?

    For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

    The last enemy destroyed is death, after that we all live eternally. We are just waiting for our bodies to dissolve (die).

    So brother, it is good either way, there are those who are meant to be slaves of men through the fear of death, and there are those who are appointed to be free by the knowledge of eternal life that JC teaches. Things are looking up, people are more free to think for themselves today than ever before, freedom is spreading all over the world, and death is becoming less and less of a threat.
    whack it:judges:

  3. #51
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    Feb 2005
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    Re: Abraham's promise- Destroys Chritianity, Islam, and Judaism

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    God (two witness) appointed himself. If they were poor and their message was mostly mournful, they would wear sackcloth.

    I believe Satan is king of the universe and therefore of earth, except when God intervenes. Those descriptions fit God, not Satan. Who else but God has those powers?



    They did not do those things. Only God has that kind of power. It was mentioned to eliminate all doubt. Even though those actions may have been justified, God showed mercy.

    God, after giving testimony, allowed Satan to attack him. Satan didn't do the killing. Satan used a Roman soldier to murder Jesus. I have no Bible reference for that, I had a dream. Two soldiers stood over Jesus kneeling on the ground; one soldier repeatedly hit Jesus in the face with his fist, the other soldier stood watching.

    It was in a street in Jerusalem.

    For 31/2 years, Jesus (God) gave testimony to the truth. I believe, rather than offering salvation and performing miracles, he reprimanded them. After telling them the truth about the past and his identity, they became resentful. More than anything else they got tired of hearing unflattering things. When Jesus was murdered they celebrated; they thought they had triumphed over the one who had been the cause of their troubles.



    God could resurrect himself. Taking his human body, God then descended into heaven. What would be the purpose of leaving his body on earth? As for the voice, I don't have an explanation, except God may have called himself into heaven. Another possibility is one of his angels, maybe Michael, called him up.



    I have researched this, there were several earthquakes during this time, but records are unclear. We do have an account of such an event in Matthew 27:51. "The earth shook and rocks split."

    You raise some interesting questions.

    Here is another thought about the two witness (God). In Chapter 12, "1,260 days" is repeated. I believe this chapter is the story of Satan fighting angels while God (Jesus) was in the world.


    Wow. Ok.

    Thanks for that.....

    ......so this means that in addition to you not believing that the new testament is valid due to corruption...and not believing the old testament is valid due to the same (tho you think the old is less corrupt than the new).....

    In addition to that, you believe that the 2 witnesses talked about in Rev 11 are God and Jesus as one being....2 in one, although the text itself is corrupt, incorrect, invalid, etc......


    Based on your explanations, I cannot see how I can carry on an actual conversation with you...because what you say flies directly in the face of what the actual text says....both in and out of context....

    It looks more like you like the idea of God as 2 in one as the witnesses mentioned in Rev 11, but that things didn't quite go down as written in Rev 11....

    Cool, man...Whatever.

  4. #52
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    Re: Abraham's promise- Destroys Chritianity, Islam, and Judaism

    Based on your explanations, I cannot see how I can carry on an actual conversation with you...because what you say flies directly in the face of what the actual text says....both in and out of context....
    LOL!!! I can plainly see that you, too are getting an education based on Cnance's "interpretations."

    The guy means well. Its been my personal observation that he just gets a little confused and turned around by all of the "bases" that hes trying to cover.

    One minute, the bible is a rock-solid testament all about a god.....the next minute its full of "rumors and distortions."

    He seems to bridge the gaps in his beliefs with his dreams.
    Most people can't think, most of the remainder won't think, the small fraction who do think mostly can't do it very well. The extremely tiny fraction who think regularly, accurately, creatively, and without self-delusion- in the long run these are the only people who count... Robert Heinlein

  5. #53
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    Re: Abraham's promise- Destroys Chritianity, Islam, and Judaism

    Quote Originally Posted by GHOST DOG View Post
    LOL!!! I can plainly see that you, too are getting an education based on Cnance's "interpretations."

    The guy means well. Its been my personal observation that he just gets a little confused and turned around by all of the "bases" that hes trying to cover.

    One minute, the bible is a rock-solid testament all about a god.....the next minute its full of "rumors and distortions."

    He seems to bridge the gaps in his beliefs with his dreams.
    That is a fairly accurate statement with one correction. I admit to having a unique interpretation about the Bible. However, I have never accepted the Bible as the inerrant word of God. I've always maintained my own interpretation, which of course puts me in a minority of one.

    I don't recall having a serious discussion with you about the Bible. No matter, whoever I discuss it with will reach a similar conclusion. As the French say, C'est La Vie.

  6. #54
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    Re: Abraham's promise- Destroys Chritianity, Islam, and Judaism

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I've always maintained my own interpretation, which of course puts me in a minority of one.
    Na....everyone has their own interpretations of things. Its called perspective.
    Where I have a problem talking with someone is when they add things to or take things away from what is actually there in order to make it into their personal view instead of basing their view off what's there.
    I don't understand why a christian cannot be a christian based off whats in the text without adding their own opinions and flavors...

    Not that I believe that christianity is correct....but for those who do, why not let one's life be conformed to the bible rather than conforming the bible to one's life, opinions, dreams, etc?




    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I don't recall having a serious discussion with you about the Bible. No matter, whoever I discuss it with will reach a similar conclusion. As the French say, C'est La Vie.


    Do you mean a similar conclusion as most of us on the forum have reached? That your ideas are 'off?' or do you mean that after intense discussion, we would end up being persuaded to think as you do?






    Just asking questions.







    .

  7. #55
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    Re: Abraham's promise- Destroys Chritianity, Islam, and Judaism

    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman View Post
    Na....everyone has their own interpretations of things. Its called perspective.
    Where I have a problem talking with someone is when they add things to or take things away from what is actually there in order to make it into their personal view instead of basing their view off what's there.
    I don't understand why a christian cannot be a christian based off whats in the text without adding their own opinions and flavors...

    Not that I believe that christianity is correct....but for those who do, why not let one's life be conformed to the bible rather than conforming the bible to one's life, opinions, dreams, etc?








    Do you mean a similar conclusion as most of us on the forum have reached? That your ideas are 'off?' or do you mean that after intense discussion, we would end up being persuaded to think as you do?






    Just asking questions.
    .
    Excellent questions. I used to think I could persuade others to my way of thinking. Now I know that's impossible. So, I just like to discuss what I know about God, Satan, and the Bible. Mostly, I am not in conformity with traditional Christianity, or with any other religion.

    It doesn't really matter, in the end we all end up the same.

    I do however enjoy debating about origin questions. Because I have some understanding of science and cosmology, I've stirred up several debates on scam.com about the universe. In those debates, it always ends up the same, neither side has evidence.

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