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  1. #1
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    Abraham's promise- Destroys Chritianity, Islam, and Judaism

    All three major religions trace their origins to Abraham. Show the truth of that, and you destroy the foundations of all three religions! Think about this: people have been searching for the one true religion, the one that can be proven beyond doubt. Yet there are over 38,000 versions within Christianity itself! Adding to that problem, Paul declares in Romans 8:7 that the natural(carnal) mind is enmity against God, and cannot be subject to God’s laws. If our natural minds aren’t dependable, what do we use? The Holy Spirit? Yes, but how in the world can we know we have it if our natural minds can’t show us? The simple fact is, we have no way of proving it, and if we could, we could simply eliminate all the unnecessary religions! We could unite church and state! We coud have a human authority that provably represents God! Instead, we have over 38,000 versions within Christianity alone, and the Muslim religion, anong with Judaism, has its own splintering groups. In this world of such deception, what does Jesus say about it? His statement is both plain and logical: “Then if any man says to you, Lo, here is Christ, or there, believe it not”!
    Believe it not? But all those churches are out there telling us we MUST believe! What in the world is going on?
    It all begins with Abraham. God visited Abraham about four hundred years before he made a covenant with israel at Sinai. But as Paul tells us in Galatians 3;17 , this promise had nothing to do with the covenant at Sinai! Even with the laws given to Israel, the promise still stands! So, if there is such religious confusion, and Jesus himself tells us to avoid all of it, giving us the only logical solution, what does the promise to Abraham have to do with it?
    It is very simple. God told Abraham that these children of “promise”, born to Abraham would someday inherit the world. Not heaven, but the world, right here(Romans 4:13, Revelation s 5:10). That was the deal! Those children, born to Abraham by God’s promise, were to inherit a world ruling kingdom!
    The firstborn of these children was Isaac, born to Abraham’s wife Sarah, who had been barren ad was nearly a hundred years old. Notice, there was absolutely nothing that Abraham could do to fulfill this promise, and he tried! He took Sarah’s handmaid, Hagar, and impregnated her, who bore a son Ishmael. Yet God said this would not be the child of promise, but a child born of Sarah would be the true seal of this promise. Sure enough, as Genesis 21:1-2 tells us, God visited Sarah, and Sarah gave birth to Isaac. Here are the conditions of that promise: Isaac would be the first of many children, all of whom would be born in the same promise ,under the same conditions as Isaac. They would be foreknown(as Isaac was), they were predestined (as Isaac was), and they would be called (as Isaac was). Notice the parallel in Romans 8:29-3. These are the ones that Paul refers to as the “called according to God’s purpose”. Those were the terms, and Isaac filled them all. Notice what Paul said in Galatians 4;28: “Now we brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise”.! Not enough? How about Galatians 3:29: “And if ye be Christ’s then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise”!
    Still not convinced? Paul had already written that our natural minds were enmity against god, so that eliminated ny possible decision procedure that would allow us to decide the one true church, and Jesus himself had told us not to believe in any of them, so Paul tells us that these children, whoever they are, are born under the same conditions, the same process, predestined, foreknown, and called, just as Isaac was!
    After Paul informed us of this in Romans 8:7, and Romans 8:29-30, he then goes into detail to show us that we cannot show ourselves, by any human process , to be any loser to god that anyone else(Romans 9:16-22)!
    But if we have no way of proving it, who are these children? Look at Romans 9:7-15.
    “Neither because they are the seed of Araham, are they all children: but, ‘in Isaac shall thy seed be called’”.
    Notice that Paul shows a distinction between the children who are descendants, and those of Isaac.
    “That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted for the seed”! How much plainer can you get? ONLY those born under the conditions of that promise, born as Isaac, are the actual children of God! Chosen to someday inherit a world ruling kingdom!
    What promise was Paul referring to? Next verse: “For this is the word of promise: ‘At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son’. ” !
    And if that’s not enough, look at verse 11: “(For the children bein gnot yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to the election might stand, not of works but of him that calleth)”!
    Why don’t any of the religions teach that? because it will put them out of business! If God foreknows, predestines, and calls his own children, and if these children are born of that same promise to Abraham at God;s will, there is no way to organize in God’s name! And that means we are free from all organized religion! After Paul clearly describes who these children are, the conditions of their birth, he then goes to pains to show that there simply exists no decisin procedure by which we may show ourselves as one of them! But if that’s true, wouldn’t all attempts to organize in God’s name result in constant splintering and division? Obvously, and that’s why there are over 38,000 versions of Christianity and growing! By the very best human efforts, men cannot organize in God’s name and prove it! Therefore, Jesus told us the truth in Matthew 24:23! But notice what Jesus himself said about it in Matthew 10:34-38: “…I came not to send peace, but a sword.
    “For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
    “And a man’s foes shall be those of his own household”!
    Jesus told us the logical results of all human attempts to worship God by human efforts! Men cannot organize in God’ name, but if the churches told us this, they would all be out of business! They are all frauds!
    Look at these children described in John 1:13: “Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God”.
    Again, plainly stated! Who is the ruler of this world, of this human system of government? Satan(Matthew 4:8-9, Luke 4:6). he is called “the god of this world”, so obviously all attempts to organize in God’s name must be in service to Satan!
    Jesus said “You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free”.. We see in 2 Peter 2:19: “While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for whatever overcomes a man, to that is he brought in bondage”.
    You are free, and there is something amazing happening here right now, on this earth! But the religions aren’t teaching it, because they wish to enslave you to the government controlled by Satan! You can only be free by choosing freedom from ALL power structures of men, both church and state! It is time to set all persons free!

  2. #2
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    Re: Abraham's promise- Destroys Chritianity, Islam, and Judaism

    boy, when you go away and think........you go away and THINK!? or was it he better felt REVELATION of sorts!? i dont have time to disect it all yet cause you know me, any SENTENCE has a THOUSAND meanings/TANGENTS ( not tan gents) and all relates to some circular relativity!? THE LOOP!? yes, as in LOOPY ....(loo!?) somehow i JUST had a SIMPLE rule for menatl HEALTH POP into the TANK (think)!? DONT ask questions unless you HAVE answers......or.....you DONT CARE if you GET an answer!? sanity is where you FIND IT!? :crazy1: :yelcutelaughA: :
    i do not endorse/recommend any advertising on scam.com associated with my name /posts or otherwise. thank you

  3. #3
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    Re: Abraham's promise- Destroys Chritianity, Islam, and Judaism

    I'm working on an extended examination of this, but the principle is quite simple: God made a deal with Abraham, and our choices do not affect it in any sense.

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    Re: Abraham's promise- Destroys Chritianity, Islam, and Judaism

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    All three major religions trace their origins to Abraham. Show the truth of that, and you destroy the foundations of all three religions! Think about this: people have been searching for the one true religion, the one that can be proven beyond doubt. Yet there are over 38,000 versions within Christianity itself! Adding to that problem, Paul declares in Romans 8:7 that the natural(carnal) mind is enmity against God, and cannot be subject to God’s laws. If our natural minds aren’t dependable, what do we use? The Holy Spirit? Yes, but how in the world can we know we have it if our natural minds can’t show us? The simple fact is, we have no way of proving it, and if we could, we could simply eliminate all the unnecessary religions! We could unite church and state! We coud have a human authority that provably represents God! Instead, we have over 38,000 versions within Christianity alone, and the Muslim religion, anong with Judaism, has its own splintering groups. In this world of such deception, what does Jesus say about it? His statement is both plain and logical: “Then if any man says to you, Lo, here is Christ, or there, believe it not”!
    Believe it not? But all those churches are out there telling us we MUST believe! What in the world is going on?
    It all begins with Abraham. God visited Abraham about four hundred years before he made a covenant with israel at Sinai. But as Paul tells us in Galatians 3;17 , this promise had nothing to do with the covenant at Sinai! Even with the laws given to Israel, the promise still stands! So, if there is such religious confusion, and Jesus himself tells us to avoid all of it, giving us the only logical solution, what does the promise to Abraham have to do with it?
    It is very simple. God told Abraham that these children of “promise”, born to Abraham would someday inherit the world. Not heaven, but the world, right here(Romans 4:13, Revelation s 5:10). That was the deal! Those children, born to Abraham by God’s promise, were to inherit a world ruling kingdom!
    The firstborn of these children was Isaac, born to Abraham’s wife Sarah, who had been barren ad was nearly a hundred years old. Notice, there was absolutely nothing that Abraham could do to fulfill this promise, and he tried! He took Sarah’s handmaid, Hagar, and impregnated her, who bore a son Ishmael. Yet God said this would not be the child of promise, but a child born of Sarah would be the true seal of this promise. Sure enough, as Genesis 21:1-2 tells us, God visited Sarah, and Sarah gave birth to Isaac. Here are the conditions of that promise: Isaac would be the first of many children, all of whom would be born in the same promise ,under the same conditions as Isaac. They would be foreknown(as Isaac was), they were predestined (as Isaac was), and they would be called (as Isaac was). Notice the parallel in Romans 8:29-3. These are the ones that Paul refers to as the “called according to God’s purpose”. Those were the terms, and Isaac filled them all. Notice what Paul said in Galatians 4;28: “Now we brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise”.! Not enough? How about Galatians 3:29: “And if ye be Christ’s then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise”!
    Still not convinced? Paul had already written that our natural minds were enmity against god, so that eliminated ny possible decision procedure that would allow us to decide the one true church, and Jesus himself had told us not to believe in any of them, so Paul tells us that these children, whoever they are, are born under the same conditions, the same process, predestined, foreknown, and called, just as Isaac was!
    After Paul informed us of this in Romans 8:7, and Romans 8:29-30, he then goes into detail to show us that we cannot show ourselves, by any human process , to be any loser to god that anyone else(Romans 9:16-22)!
    But if we have no way of proving it, who are these children? Look at Romans 9:7-15.
    “Neither because they are the seed of Araham, are they all children: but, ‘in Isaac shall thy seed be called’”.
    Notice that Paul shows a distinction between the children who are descendants, and those of Isaac.
    “That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted for the seed”! How much plainer can you get? ONLY those born under the conditions of that promise, born as Isaac, are the actual children of God! Chosen to someday inherit a world ruling kingdom!
    What promise was Paul referring to? Next verse: “For this is the word of promise: ‘At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son’. ” !
    And if that’s not enough, look at verse 11: “(For the children bein gnot yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to the election might stand, not of works but of him that calleth)”!
    Why don’t any of the religions teach that? because it will put them out of business! If God foreknows, predestines, and calls his own children, and if these children are born of that same promise to Abraham at God;s will, there is no way to organize in God’s name! And that means we are free from all organized religion! After Paul clearly describes who these children are, the conditions of their birth, he then goes to pains to show that there simply exists no decisin procedure by which we may show ourselves as one of them! But if that’s true, wouldn’t all attempts to organize in God’s name result in constant splintering and division? Obvously, and that’s why there are over 38,000 versions of Christianity and growing! By the very best human efforts, men cannot organize in God’s name and prove it! Therefore, Jesus told us the truth in Matthew 24:23! But notice what Jesus himself said about it in Matthew 10:34-38: “…I came not to send peace, but a sword.
    “For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
    “And a man’s foes shall be those of his own household”!
    Jesus told us the logical results of all human attempts to worship God by human efforts! Men cannot organize in God’ name, but if the churches told us this, they would all be out of business! They are all frauds!
    Look at these children described in John 1:13: “Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God”.
    Again, plainly stated! Who is the ruler of this world, of this human system of government? Satan(Matthew 4:8-9, Luke 4:6). he is called “the god of this world”, so obviously all attempts to organize in God’s name must be in service to Satan!
    Jesus said “You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free”.. We see in 2 Peter 2:19: “While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for whatever overcomes a man, to that is he brought in bondage”.
    You are free, and there is something amazing happening here right now, on this earth! But the religions aren’t teaching it, because they wish to enslave you to the government controlled by Satan! You can only be free by choosing freedom from ALL power structures of men, both church and state! It is time to set all persons free!
    I agree, but only in part. I agree with your comments about God's promises to Abraham being for the world and for land. Israel is the proof, they are occupying land promised by God.

    I don't believe however God's promises are for everyone, just his chosen people, Jews.

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    Re: Abraham's promise- Destroys Chritianity, Islam, and Judaism

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I agree, but only in part. I agree with your comments about God's promises to Abraham being for the world and for land. Israel is the proof, they are occupying land promised by God.

    I don't believe however God's promises are for everyone, just his chosen people, Jews.
    It doesn't matter whether you agtree or don't agree. A s stated, there is no way to freely choose to become part of it. It's not dependent on human viewpoint.

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    Re: Abraham's promise- Destroys Chritianity, Islam, and Judaism

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    It doesn't matter whether you agtree or don't agree. A s stated, there is no way to freely choose to become part of it. It's not dependent on human viewpoint.
    I know my opinion has nothing to do with God's will, but neither does yours.

    I defer to the Old Testament and what it says about God's promises to Abraham. Those promises were for his chosen people, the Jews. If Paul's writings contradicted the Old Testament, which they do, then I prefer the OT. I don't believe God changed his mind and decided to forget His promises.

  7. #7
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    Re: Abraham's promise- Destroys Chritianity, Islam, and Judaism

    If your god were real, he would be a pedophile.
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    "I have read the bible...more than once. I was not impressed nor was I so moved to give up my ability to think for myself and surrender my knowledge of facts for the unfounded belief in a mythical sky-fairy." - Me.

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    Re: Abraham's promise- Destroys Chritianity, Islam, and Judaism

    Quote Originally Posted by LogicallyYours View Post
    If your god were real, he would be a pedophile.
    Cnance believes the Old Testamant, so there are many many hideous things he presumably approves of, when perpetrated by his god.

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    Re: Abraham's promise- Destroys Chritianity, Islam, and Judaism

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I know my opinion has nothing to do with God's will, but neither does yours.
    And that is precisely the point. It doesn't depend on [i]anyone's[/] POV, since such a POV would be suibject to proof, definition , language, and thereforwe algorithms and programming, which leads to the i nevitable co nclusion that any coputer could simulate God as well as any human. Better, in fact, si nce the computer is not laden with human frailties.

    I defer to the Old Testament and what it says about God's promises to Abraham. Those promises were for his chosen people, the Jews.
    Specifically, they were not, si nce Jews are the remnants of two tribes of israe, Judah and Levi, with the other ten tribes "lost' in history. The promise which God made to Abraham was that he would have a son, and in this son would the nations of the earth be blessed. Israel came i nto the story at Si nai, in a coveant, an agreement based on law. God made a promise to Abraham involving Isaac, not the physica nation of Israel. While he dealt with Israel o nly(Deuteronomy 4:35, Amos 3:2), he dalt with them from hios "revelation" to them at Sinai.

    If Paul's writings contradicted the Old Testament, which they do, then I prefer the OT. I don't believe God changed his mind and decided to forget His promises.
    he didn't forget is promises, nor did Paul say he did. Paul merely pointed out that the promise was not part of the law at Sinai(Galatians 3;17). Co nsequently, your argument with me merely point out the logic of Romans 9:16-22, there is no human monopoly on God, and no algorithm, no group, no "church" that can claim authority from God, which leads to atthew 24:23: no poin t in believing any of them. You merely prove my point by your argument.

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    Re: Abraham's promise- Destroys Chritianity, Islam, and Judaism

    Quote Originally Posted by doojie View Post
    And that is precisely the point. It doesn't depend on [i]anyone's[/] POV, since such a POV would be suibject to proof, definition , language, and thereforwe algorithms and programming, which leads to the i nevitable co nclusion that any coputer could simulate God as well as any human. Better, in fact, si nce the computer is not laden with human frailties.
    My position boils down to whether or not God did in fact chose the Jews as his chosen people, and if therefore he made certain promises to them.


    Specifically, they were not, si nce Jews are the remnants of two tribes of israe, Judah and Levi, with the other ten tribes "lost' in history. The promise which God made to Abraham was that he would have a son, and in this son would the nations of the earth be blessed. Israel came i nto the story at Si nai, in a coveant, an agreement based on law. God made a promise to Abraham involving Isaac, not the physica nation of Israel. While he dealt with Israel o nly(Deuteronomy 4:35, Amos 3:2), he dalt with them from hios "revelation" to them at Sinai.
    And yet, we have Israel, a Jewish land. So we can say there is material evidence for God's promise. I believe his promised remained with Judah, not the lost tribes. Primarily because Judah remained loyal to God.

    he didn't forget is promises, nor did Paul say he did. Paul merely pointed out that the promise was not part of the law at Sinai(Galatians 3;17). Co nsequently, your argument with me merely point out the logic of Romans 9:16-22, there is no human monopoly on God, and no algorithm, no group, no "church" that can claim authority from God, which leads to atthew 24:23: no poin t in believing any of them. You merely prove my point by your argument.
    I understand your viewpoint about Paul. However, as we debated, I find problems with Paul. I don't think Paul had a right to create a new covenant, or to revise God's commandments with respect to Jews and gentiles. Here, of course, I have no scriptural references for support. As you recall, I believe Jesus was God, not his son. If that is true, then much of what Paul said about Jesus is false. It's a hole in the dam for Paul. If that is true and Jesus was God and not His son, then how can we believe Paul?

    I respect your argument and if I didn't have such strong convictions about Jesus, I may be convinced.

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    Re: Abraham's promise- Destroys Chritianity, Islam, and Judaism

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    My position boils down to whether or not God did in fact chose the Jews as his chosen people, and if therefore he made certain promises to them.


    And yet, we have Israel, a Jewish land. So we can say there is material evidence for God's promise. I believe his promised remained with Judah, not the lost tribes. Primarily because Judah remained loyal to God.

    I understand your viewpoint about Paul. However, as we debated, I find problems with Paul. I don't think Paul had a right to create a new covenant, or to revise God's commandments with respect to Jews and gentiles. Here, of course, I have no scriptural references for support. As you recall, I believe Jesus was God, not his son. If that is true, then much of what Paul said about Jesus is false. It's a hole in the dam for Paul. If that is true and Jesus was God and not His son, then how can we believe Paul?

    I respect your argument and if I didn't have such strong convictions about Jesus, I may be convinced.
    No scriptural references, nothing whatever to ba ck up your claim, but you have a beloief. What a joke.

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    Re: Abraham's promise- Destroys Chritianity, Islam, and Judaism

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    I believe Jesus was God, not his son. .
    "Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani?"

    ....so what he was actually saying was "Myself myself why have I forsaken me?"

    ...or was this just a random verse (Psalm 22) cried out by a dying God at the end of his torment?

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    Re: Abraham's promise- Destroys Chritianity, Islam, and Judaism

    ....wow, that kind of throws the whole idea (which a lot of Christians hold dear) of Psalm 22 being a prophesy of Jesus into a bit of selfish rants....possibly a God deriding himself for being unable or unwilling to help himself....
    Your version, cnance, would have to then be something along these lines:

    Psalm22
    Me, Me, why have I forsaken Myself?
    Why am I so far from helping Myself,
    And from my words of groaning?
    2 O Me, I cry in the daytime, but I do not hear;
    And in the night season, and am not silent.....



    Do I need to go on....?


    ...consequently, this very Psalm actually makes a pretty good case for the non-divinity of Christ, but rather that he was chosen by God as the first fruits for a spiritual kingdom not unlike what the JW's tend to lean towards....

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    Re: Abraham's promise- Destroys Chritianity, Islam, and Judaism

    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman View Post
    ....wow, that kind of throws the whole idea (which a lot of Christians hold dear) of Psalm 22 being a prophesy of Jesus into a bit of selfish rants....possibly a God deriding himself for being unable or unwilling to help himself....
    Your version, cnance, would have to then be something along these lines:

    Psalm22
    Me, Me, why have I forsaken Myself?
    Why am I so far from helping Myself,
    And from my words of groaning?
    2 O Me, I cry in the daytime, but I do not hear;
    And in the night season, and am not silent.....



    Do I need to go on....?


    ...consequently, this very Psalm actually makes a pretty good case for the non-divinity of Christ, but rather that he was chosen by God as the first fruits for a spiritual kingdom not unlike what the JW's tend to lean towards....
    First, we have few, if any, literal interpretations for the son of God in the Old Testament, they're mostly figurative. That is because there is no son of God, Jesus was God. Therefore, Psalm 22 is not about Jesus it is about David anguishing over prolonged attacks of his enemy. Much of the Old Testament has been taken out of context to support the idea that Jesus was the son of God.
    Last edited by Cnance; 09-26-2012 at 01:17 PM.

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    Re: Abraham's promise- Destroys Chritianity, Islam, and Judaism

    Quote Originally Posted by Cnance View Post
    Psalm 22 is not about Jesus it is about David anguishing over prolonged attacks of his enemy. Much of the Old Testament has been taken out of context to support the idea that Jesus was the son of God.


    I agree.


    What about Matthew 27:46 in light of my other post?
    Quote Originally Posted by bibleman
    Eloi Eloi lama sabachthani?"

    ....so what he was actually saying was "Myself myself why have I forsaken me?"

    ...or was this just a random verse (Psalm 22) cried out by a dying God at the end of his torment?
    ...or do you think this was added by someone to try to 'help' scripture prove scripture?

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    Re: Abraham's promise- Destroys Chritianity, Islam, and Judaism



    Jobs...jobs....jobs....
    "Religion is a heavy suitcase: all you have to do is put it down."
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