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  1. #1
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    Amway 17% growth in 2011! Amway U.S. not so much.

    Amway apparently enjoyed a record 17% revenue growth in 2011. Amway U.S. not so much. as per Forbes, Amway U.S. grew 9.5% in 2011:

    http://www.forbes.com/lists/2011/21/...mway_B15P.html

    What does this mean? This is direct evidence that the U.S. Market is saturated, at least relative to it's newer markets such as China, which did 28%, I believe.

    People like skepticalMLM profess that a big, long running MLM is profitable for a distributor. This shows that even within the same company, the growth is north of 40% greater in Amway's younger markets, sometimes well over double in countries such as China. This goes to show that the younger the MLM is, the more IBO profit there is to be had. A longer running, more established market, not so much.

    It's all about timing, or getting in early. The only way to circumvent this MLM truth is to enter with your own ready made downline which you took from the last company. Sure, a few MLM superstars can leapfrog other successful, longer tenured distributors, but their profits would have been much greater if they had started earlier.

    So, we have the math to argue for saturation, and now a real life example of (at least relative) saturation using one of the largest, longest running MLM's in existence.

    Thoughts?
    MLM's Mission Statement:

    "The primary product is opportunity. The strongest, most powerful motivational force today is false hope."

    "Almost everyone is not going to learn the skills and use them consistently over time, you would be better off joining Costco" -Dank111

  2. #2
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    Re: Amway 17% growth in 2011! Amway U.S. not so m

    It's all FUBAR!!!

  3. #3
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    Re: Would it surprise anyone that Mcmway U.S. not

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    Would it surprise anyone that McDonalds is growing faster in other countries than the US?

    Saturated? Or simply more opportunity worldwide?

    Does anyone think possibly there are more children born in China or India every day than in the US??

    International expansion...what a new concept.
    MLMer's are really reaching now. First your Amway zombie Skeptic says college is a waste and now you are comparing a million dollar franchise with a proven track record of success to MLM where success is about as common as winning the lotto.

  4. #4
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    Re: Would it surprise anyone that Mcmway U.S. not

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    sales are sales....and companies go where there are more customers...

    whenever you get a million....go buy a mcdonalds....
    At least McDonald's is a near assurance of making a 6 figure income whereas MLM is a near assurance of making nothing.

  5. #5
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    Re: Would it surprise anyone that Mcmway U.S. not

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    Y
    So after you make your first million flipping burgers you can buy one!
    Yup...why are they selling off their US stores and buying every where else??

    Ya think they are following Amway's lead?
    Amway's lead? Wil, put down the cactus flavored kool aid for a second.

    Comparing MLM to McDonald's is making you look like a schmuck.

  6. #6
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    Re: Amway 17% growth in 2011! Amway U.S. not so m

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    I know you guys like to divert the conversation to move away from reality....but this is from the original post Somehow this math that proves Amway is saturated..that going overseas for more exposure...proves something.

    McDees is selling US stores to use the money to open stores overseas...

    So are they saturated? Amway is only doing 10 billion a year...I realize they are just a little company in the circles you travel in...
    You could argue that both companies are saturated in the US. For Amway, saturation might mean that most people know of Amway and associate them with "scam" or "pyramid".

  7. #7
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    Re: Would it surprise anyone that Mcmway U.S. not

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    Yup...why are they selling off their US stores and buying every where else??

    Ya think they are following Amway's lead?
    It sounds like McDonalds and Amway have some consistencies with their overseas business strategy, yes.

    They have both realized that the market in the U.S. is contracting. Even if there is business growth, it may be below their expectations.

    There's McDonalds every few miles or less in the U.S. Regarding Amway, their network is massive, and many people not in the business know Amway as "one of those pyramid schemes."
    MLM's Mission Statement:

    "The primary product is opportunity. The strongest, most powerful motivational force today is false hope."

    "Almost everyone is not going to learn the skills and use them consistently over time, you would be better off joining Costco" -Dank111

  8. #8
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    Re: Amway 17% growth in 2011! Amway U.S. not so m

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    I know you guys like to divert the conversation to move away from reality....but this is from the original post Somehow this math that proves Amway is saturated..that going overseas for more exposure...proves something.

    McDees is selling US stores to use the money to open stores overseas...

    So are they saturated? Amway is only doing 10 billion a year...I realize they are just a little company in the circles you travel in...
    Yes and no. Amway the company is still growing, both in the U.S. and abroad. The distributors' income has not. A distributorship's sales/downline must double itself many times over to be viable. At the Diamond level they can remain profitable so long as the quitters' volume = the newcomers' volume. For anyone working to build the business, 9.5% a year isn't going to get them very far.

    My earlier point is that in the long established market in the U.S. the overall company growth rate is only 9.5%, where it was 17% overall, with much higher numbers in certain markets. Ask anyone here on the street if they've heard of Amway, and they'll either shrug their shoulders or mention it being assosciated with a pyramid scheme. The recruiting potential in the U.S. is very poor compared to other markets. The relatively more rapid growth overseas shows that the business potential of an Amway distributorship is poor (saturated) compared to it's overseas markets.

    9.5% growth isn't good for the distributorship if the number of distributors also grows 9.5% or more. It becomes a zero sum game, or evern a negative sum game compared to the previous year. Going further, if Amway's distributorship numbers in the U.S. fail to grow even 9.5%, I'd be quite worried about my income potential as an IBO. The 6-4-2 plan doesn't work when you're developing at less than 9.5% growth. As such, either Amway IBO's are at a loss if their membership grows faster than the revenue growth percentage, or if the membership number is only growing at a single digit percentage.
    MLM's Mission Statement:

    "The primary product is opportunity. The strongest, most powerful motivational force today is false hope."

    "Almost everyone is not going to learn the skills and use them consistently over time, you would be better off joining Costco" -Dank111

  9. #9
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    Re: Amway 17% growth in 2011! Amway U.S. not so m

    Quote Originally Posted by BoxAlarm126 View Post
    Yes and no. Amway the company is still growing, both in the U.S. and abroad. The distributors' income has not. A distributorship's sales/downline must double itself many times over to be viable. At the Diamond level they can remain profitable so long as the quitters' volume = the newcomers' volume. For anyone working to build the business, 9.5% a year isn't going to get them very far.

    My earlier point is that in the long established market in the U.S. the overall company growth rate is only 9.5%, where it was 17% overall, with much higher numbers in certain markets. Ask anyone here on the street if they've heard of Amway, and they'll either shrug their shoulders or mention it being assosciated with a pyramid scheme. The recruiting potential in the U.S. is very poor compared to other markets. The relatively more rapid growth overseas shows that the business potential of an Amway distributorship is poor (saturated) compared to it's overseas markets.

    9.5% growth isn't good for the distributorship if the number of distributors also grows 9.5% or more. It becomes a zero sum game, or evern a negative sum game compared to the previous year. Going further, if Amway's distributorship numbers in the U.S. fail to grow even 9.5%, I'd be quite worried about my income potential as an IBO. The 6-4-2 plan doesn't work when you're developing at less than 9.5% growth. As such, either Amway IBO's are at a loss if their membership grows faster than the revenue growth percentage, or if the membership number is only growing at a single digit percentage.

    Ahhh,but as an as clown you fail to recognize that your downline in Amway can be in any of these countries that are growing well.

    Now if only some of these foreign markets had people living here in the US... you know....like Chinese people, or Indians, or Russians, or Mexicans, or Tiawaneese, or Phillipinos...

    Sponsor them, have them introduce it to people they know from their homeland, where it is growing at 17% - 28% or more per year...

    Yep, you keepon thinking like a simpleton...employee

    Good luck if you get injured on the job... oh wait... diability pays a fraction right?... Hope you can live on a fraction of what you do now...

    that will really do well for your kids too.....

    Good luck with that

  10. #10
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    Re: Amway 17% growth in 2011! Amway U.S. not so m

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    Is there any comparison between McDs selling franchises and IBOs selling their opportunity...other than the million dollar cost?
    Yes, for one thing, McDs owners make money. The MLMers pretty much are assured of losing money.

    Also, I buy a McD's franchise for a million and I can sell it for a million. What's your MLM business worth?

  11. #11
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    Re: Amway 17% growth in 2011! Amway U.S. not so m

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeptical_MLM'er View Post
    Ahhh,but as an as clown you fail to recognize that your downline in Amway can be in any of these countries that are growing well.

    Now if only some of these foreign markets had people living here in the US... you know....like Chinese people, or Indians, or Russians, or Mexicans, or Tiawaneese, or Phillipinos...

    Sponsor them, have them introduce it to people they know from their homeland, where it is growing at 17% - 28% or more per year...

    Yep, you keepon thinking like a simpleton...employee

    Good luck if you get injured on the job... oh wait... diability pays a fraction right?... Hope you can live on a fraction of what you do now...

    that will really do well for your kids too.....

    Good luck with that
    My disability insurance kicks in to pay 100% of my salary. We also have light duty at 100% is we get injured on the job. If we get forced into retirement, we get around 70%. Since I'm earning degree after degree on department time on their dime, I'm relevant in the job market should I suffer a career ending injury. I fail to see your point.

    Let me ask you, assuming that all IBO's are earning an equal, consistent 100PV/month, how long would it take to fully realize the 6-4-2 plan starting with you and your first sponsored downline, and a 28% annual growth rate? How about 17%?

    Wait, I'll save you the trouble - 6-4-2 = 79 IBO's. We've already established that they do the same consistent volume, so that we can look purely at network growth with equally producing units. You're starting with yourself and one other at the beginning of the first year. Your network = 2. You need to reach 79. At 28% growth, which you profess to be lucrative, will take 14.9 years. At 17%, it takes 23.42 years. At the U.S. rate of 9.5%, it takes 40.51 years!

    IIRC, the 6-4-2 is what it takes to become Platinum. At these wonderful growth rates, it's clear to see that it would take many years to grow the business. I guess these record growth rates aren't so lucrative for IBO's huh? What's more, an average Platinum's income, when adjusted for expenses, is much less than is needed to replace job income, even at a paltry $15/hr. You see, 128% of $100k is quite an achievement. However, 128% of a couple of hundred bucks is not.

    Also, on this thread, you avoided my questions in post # 12, which summarize several questions and rebuttals from me that you continually evade.

    http://www.scam.com/showthread.php?t=157115

    Care to respond?
    MLM's Mission Statement:

    "The primary product is opportunity. The strongest, most powerful motivational force today is false hope."

    "Almost everyone is not going to learn the skills and use them consistently over time, you would be better off joining Costco" -Dank111

  12. #12
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    Re: Amway 17% growth in 2011! Amway U.S. not so m

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    Again a little naive.... you can't always sell something for what you've paid for it. You have to prove its worth.

    Our businesses sell for 2-5 times their annual revenue....2 if they've been languishing and shrinking, 5x if they are growing, increasing stable businesses. We can will them to our kids, tell the company we want to sell them and they will assist, or we can sell them ourselves.
    A bonafide franchise business has equity. Not so much for MLM.

  13. #13
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    Re: Would it surprise anyone that Mcmway U.S. not

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    Saturated? Or simply more opportunity worldwide?
    This makes me laugh. Part of saturation is the fact that companies have reached much of a market, thus, they need to find untapped (or lessor tapped) markets. It isn't just a matter of one or the other. The second can be a direct result, or partly because of the first.
    I'm not selling anything, so I don't need links in my signature to for-profit ventures. You really should question the intentions of those here that have them, as they are generally advertising, not informing.

  14. #14
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    Re: Amway 17% growth in 2011! Amway U.S. not so m

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    Again a little naive.... you can't always sell something for what you've paid for it. You have to prove its worth.

    Over the years I've seen numerous businesses bought and sold. I know of about half a dozen businesses, going concerns, that coudn't be sold at anything close to the value that the owner had put into them, or thought they were worth. I know two construction companies that tried to sell, and nobody would buy, both did more than 10 million a year... A coffee shop that did great business, but nobody would buy. A vending truck and route....it made over 200k per year....and couldn't sell, nobody wanted to do 40 weekend festivals year.....I'm in a lot better shape than that, we have buyers.

    Our businesses sell for 2-5 times their annual revenue....2 if they've been languishing and shrinking, 5x if they are growing, increasing stable businesses. We can will them to our kids, tell the company we want to sell them and they will assist, or we can sell them ourselves.
    I like how you speak of selling traditional businesses in anecdotal terms and selling MLM distributorships in generalities.

    I know of an MLM distributorship that became worthless because the customer base and downline left.

    There....MLMs are worse, right?

    Your business knowledge is good for standup comics, but not much else.

    At least you didn't claim revenue and profit were the same in this post. Progress!
    I'm not selling anything, so I don't need links in my signature to for-profit ventures. You really should question the intentions of those here that have them, as they are generally advertising, not informing.

  15. #15
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    Re: Amway 17% growth in 2011! Amway U.S. not so m

    Quote Originally Posted by Joecool44 View Post
    A bonafide franchise business has equity. Not so much for MLM.
    Neither statement is true.

    Either could have equity or be worthless.
    I'm not selling anything, so I don't need links in my signature to for-profit ventures. You really should question the intentions of those here that have them, as they are generally advertising, not informing.

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